JANNY WURTS: Initiate's Trial: Speculation SPOILER WARNING!!!

[Grimward]

I agree, Pro; seems when one writes for this long with this much detail, the scenes have to be scripted pretty much to completion when one has the thought(s), or this is bound to happen. Just thought I'd share it to see if the rest had either a different read, or perhaps another contributory reference on the topic which would 'splain the discrepancy a little better to my feeble cranium. If our resident researcher extraordinaire doesn't have other references waiting in the wings *Tips hat to Dek*, I'll bounce the question to you, Clansman, sir! (Or you, Your Grace, if you're still lurking around, or anyone else of course who cares to comment.....)

 

[Grimward]

Just a note that Janny posted the second spoiler for Initiate's Trial tonight (hmm, make that last night!) on the paravia .com site. A good read, and it definitely has at least two minor spoilers.....

 

[The Procrastinator]

Aha: will get over there when I have some thinking moments. TY, O Lavatory of Torment.

 

[Grimward]

*With Heartbroken sob*
Is that all I am to you, then? A flaming toilet bowl?

All of the, erm, posts we've shared (Grim's Groaning Chorus wakes up and stretches!)

*Raises back of hand to forehead, staggers a few feet into the room, collapses unto the plush Initiate's Trial carpet*

Oh, the urbanity!

OK, I'll behave now...

 

[The Procrastinator]

<---offers Grimey a violin

 

[Clansman]

I am afraid that the horsemen are evenly divided on this issue. I think that Dekket has pointed out the true meaning of the author's intent.

Remember, while being the mistress of vocabulary, Janny is also the mistress of subtlety. She uses words to their greatest extent, and all meanings are not clear at first. I can reconcile the two passages quite easily, especially with Dekket's points.

Of course, we could just ask her, but then the fun is out of the debate. So, debate first, ask later?

 

[Grimward]

Nope. It's a reach, and the inclusion of "ceremonial dissolution" at the end of that excerpt almost feels like it was included in Stormed Fortress only to link back to Grand Conspiracy. Shehane Althain (his will, his spirit, whatever of his that's hanging around warding his tower), didn't know and didn't care what the cause of the dissension was. They could have been arguing over Sethvir's holy socks (pun intended); had it gotten heated enough, the same thing would have happened BECAUSE Sethvir had placed that symbolic ward over the door and Davien crossed it, and still more crossed it in anger. Further, Asandir would not have leapt to stop him if the rest of the Fellowship had intended him to be discorporate from the get-go (What point?).

One can be the Mistress of Subtlety (well, she can, anyway) and still have changes of heart...although I agree with your final point, Clanny. It's much more fun to argue about it first!

 

[Clansman]

That's right. This thread had the end cut off by the Great Crash. Janny posted authoritatively on the alleged inconsistency at the end of August, 'cause I asked her to, and, with respect, SHE CRUSHED YOUR ARGUMENT, Grim baby! I came here meaning to post something else, and then noticed that the thread just stopped, so this needed an answer.

I will still do my something else in my next post, but I will come back later and post her reply to the question.

And now I have, by editing this post, found the answer:

[FONT=Times New Roman, Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]By Janny Wurts on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 03:39 pm
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Well, here you go...I am not sure this info will NOT crop up again, in magnified form, later - but - if it does, the spoil will be small.

To understand the warding laid over Althain Tower - note - Sethvir gave Lirenda the ILLUSION of the centaur...and she did not attack the tower, or seek entry without his presence and permission. The consciousness remaining on site there envelops the entire tower. To go within, is, in fact, something of a "merging" event. That conscious would be aware of all that transpired within.

The Warden of Althain is in relationship, direct, to that consciousness. To cross the Warden's direct will - a big oops!!! Paravians do not have a concept for "punishment" - they do understand balance. A direct cross of the warden's will would result in INSTANT removal from Athera's physical existence, no return....it would not be a limbo, but a shift in vibration that would take the violating consciousness - elsewhere - in fact, healing it of its contention. But that spirit could never return, it would be beyond all recall to bodily reality.

Sethvir/the Fellowship were created at the time of the creation of the Great Weapon....they agreed to stand together and not do anything/make any decision regarding use of power that all did not agree upon.

The Drake's binding then fell atop that prior commitment, to stand together at all costs.

When Davien was called to Althain, it WAS a formal summons asking him to account for his actions (answer for them, NOT be punished) and, for at least the other six, a call to find accord and keep their covenents - with themselves and with the dragons. The accounting was called. What shape it may have taken, had Davien chosen to cooperate is not known.

Sethvir set a ceremonial warding on the door as his EMPHATIC statement the commitment to find accord was serious, not to be avoided or ducked, and a formal call to Davien to honor and hold their oath of Seven as inviolate.

Davien broke accord by crossing the line, walking out on both answering and seeking accord for the future. This was INTERPRETED by the guardian warding as a break of personal faith, AND a break of a sworn oath between peers, AND a repudiation of the Dragon's binding to ensure Paravian survival. Therefore, on three levels, Davien was forsworn, in the "eyes" of Shehane Althain's consciousness.

This pulled into play the direct power of the warding of Shehane Althain....which was GOING to remove Davien from his body, and ALSO irrevocably disbar his presence on Athera....which would have shattered the accord with the fellowship, and destroyed the binding of the Dragons, by willed event - an act that would have brought UNKNOWN and perhaps terrible consequence for the other six who remained.

Therefore, the Six Sorcerers acted FIRST - stripped Davien of the flesh - and in doing so, struck a concession/balance with the warding of Shehane Althain - for without the flesh, Davien would not so easily be able to create with the brilliance of his gifts...in the physical...The concession was paid to KEEP DAVIEN ON ATHERA - as spirit - thus, censure was the correct word - something of his presence was given up to placate Shehane Althain's demand, and stop/deflect the full impact of his guardian warding.

All this complexity was way too much to stack onto a hot scene - but it's there in the background, and bits of that may yet play.[/FONT]

In the words of that annoying teenager in that Star Trek episode "Miri" or some such name (identical Earth planet wiped out by biological warfare, EXCEPT THE KIDS!): NA NA NA NA NAAAA NA. NA NA NA NA NAAAA NA. etc. and so on.

 

[Clansman]

[SIZE=-1]I just lifted this from Janny's web site, regarding the possibility of more sneak previews, that is quite revealing, sort of, of things that will happen in Initiate's Trial.

By Janny Wurts on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 03:13 pm [/SIZE]t

The honest to gosh problem with pulling excerpts from this volume is the almighty mess of spoilers that would result - and even sections that "look" innocuous are not really so, because they are pulled so disjointedly from the integrity of the Actual material - any fragment unveiled quite naturally tends to evoke a lot of spurious speculation, zinging off on totally crazed tangents. Because the true connections must remain hidden, such glimpses would, in the end, make you quite nuts! If not (erroneously!) leave you feeling stranded, not because you WERE, but because showing the central action would throw the game, and I can't do that... picking innocuous bits makes the rest seem Not There, when it's Very Much There! Too much there to show!

If you are worried that NO clans survive - don't. If you are worried there will be no character you recognize - don't! The series is NOT going to leave you stranded in that way. I wouldn't just "saw off" a whole segment of action or not finish off the tale with respect to central themes - you will know how the threads span volumes, and the characters who are central to the story's presence will stay at center stage.

I am not, but definitely doing the "next generation" Ok?

That does not mean the next arc will be predictable...but I have to be terribly bothersomely selective about what I choose to reveal of its development, or your brains will definitely boil.

Yayyyy! My clansmen don't get wiped out!

 

[Grimward]

She crushed nothing, Clanny, and it ill-becomes you to lift/resurrect only that part of the whole discussion (shame on you; the blackboard, chalk and 30 repetitions of 'Seshkrozchiel' await!). Had Sethvir not placed that symbolic (or so he thought at the time) ward over the door, Shehane would have gone on sleeping, reading Paravian Quarterly, or whatever it is that Centaur Guardians do when they're not guarding. He certainly would NOT have acted as a result of Davien's departure, there being no threat or implied transgression against the will of the Tower's Warden. Then again, since Janny's the Talespinner here, it was her prerogative to spin it as she saw fit.....I remain unconvinced that the flashback to this episode in Stormed Fortress was what was intended when the original script was written. None of this makes it any less than great story-telling, of course, and when you're writing a tale with that many pages, continuity is a goal to be strived for, not an outcome to be guaranteed....

 

[The Procrastinator]

I'm with the Ring of Fire. Heretics - we is them.

 

[Grimward]

*Makes sure the Spanish Inquisition isn't watching, then sends a briefcase with stuffed with unmarked bills to the 100-acre wood.*

 

[The Procrastinator]

*Picks it up*
Hum....a case full of unpaid invoices...this must belong to Eeyore. I'll drop it off for him on one of my wanders.

 

[Grimward]

Ooops, that one was supposed to go to Clanny; send it to him instead!

*Sends the one with the green stuff this time*

 

[dekket]

Nobody expects the spanish inquisition, our main weapon is surprise, and fear.
Our two main weapons are surprise, and fear, and a fanatical devotion to the pope.
Our three. . .

Does anyone have any further speculation about Initiate's Trial?

Janny has confirmed that some clans survive, but could the survivors just be those branches that have taken sanctuary in Havish?

 

[Clansman]

Firstly, welcome back dekket!! You have been silent of late, and missed. Great Crash a problem for you?

Secondly, regarding the "resurrecting only part of the discussion", I am a lawyer, not a judge. You can't expect me to make your arguments for you. Sheesh! Also there was no way I was going to type 'Seshkrozchiel' that many times. I cut to the chase, and saved us a whole lot of time by proving you heretics wrong. Period.

Thirdly, as far as speculation goes, I would be willing to bet that as a couple of centuries will have passed, the Light religion is much more mainstay and has replaced the reverence of Ath in the towns continent-wide, and perhaps even in Havish, making being of the clans very difficult. However, with a few centuries of stable crown rule in Havish, people might like it better there. Who knows?

Also, Atwood in Melhalla was brought into active protection, so the clans there should be safe from the predations of headhunters and the Priests of the Light.

 

[Grimward]

*Looks with sympathy at the lochaber axeman, then turns to Pro and quotes Deliverance*

"Some people you just can't reach..."

Anywhoooo, I second Dek's suggestion (and welcome back from me too, oh Wurtsian Scholar!). How's about this? The light has been established long enough for some in the populace to begin rebelling privately against what they begin to see as a burdensome tax yoke. While not allies of the Clans, Arithon and crew, these factions covertly oppose Lysaer and his smothering religion.

Thoughts?

*Taunts from Grim's Groaning Chorus of "Lay off the Deshirian Ale, ya miserable excuse for a lit candle!" abound....*

 

[Clansman]

Enforced tithing was a major irritant in Europe during (quoting Obiwan Kenobi) "the dark times". I wouldn't be surprised if history revealed a lot of monks being buried under manure piles etc, for collecting tithes.

Hmmm. Let's see: support an oppressive church that tends not to practice what it preaches, or watch your kids starve?

You might be on to something there, Grim One. Even if JW hasn't thought of this, she might want to. It's a pretty good idea, at least to develope sympathy. In fact, the same thing that got people ticked off at the clans (restrictions on farming, etc.), would naturally shift to the powers that be, i.e. the Priest of the Light.

 

[dekket]

Clansman, thanks for asking, but the Great Crash didn't really cause me any problems, haven't been online much lately (my wife has recently discovered facebook and so I haven't been getting much PC time). And things have been busy at work, and at home (preparing for the arrival of our first child).

There are a lot of threads to get up to speed with.

Who are you calling a heretic anyway?

The couple of centuries seems a given, the Light religion will likely be institutionalised by that time.
Although the living presence of its founder may delay any meaningful rumblings of the populace.
I would guess that the 4 kingdoms outside of Havish would have been forged into a much tighter collective, but I doubt that Crown Rule would allow any foothold of the Light Religion in Havish, as such a religion would be against both the Compact and the original Crown Charter.

s'Ffalenn descendents should be more abundant with the passage of a few centuries, however this would likely still be a secret, to protect both Arithon and his child/descendents.

Mearn's descendents would have become integrated into the clans of the free wilds.

I would hope that Arithon would have made a decent survey of Athera's oceans by now.

In Initiate's Trial I would like to see some exploration of the centre of the continent of Paravia, in the region that appears to be outside of all the Kingdom borders.

 

[Clansman]

Clansman, thanks for asking, but the Great Crash didn't really cause me any problems, haven't been online much lately (my wife has recently discovered facebook and so I haven't been getting much PC time). And things have been busy at work, and at home (preparing for the arrival of our first child).

There are a lot of threads to get up to speed with.

Who are you calling a heretic anyway?

The couple of centuries seems a given, the Light religion will likely be institutionalised by that time.
Although the living presence of its founder may delay any meaningful rumblings of the populace.
I would guess that the 4 kingdoms outside of Havish would have been forged into a much tighter collective, but I doubt that Crown Rule would allow any foothold of the Light Religion in Havish, as such a religion would be against both the Compact and the original Crown Charter.

s'Ffalenn descendents should be more abundant with the passage of a few centuries, however this would likely still be a secret, to protect both Arithon and his child/descendents.

Mearn's descendents would have become integrated into the clans of the free wilds.

I would hope that Arithon would have made a decent survey of Athera's oceans by now.

In Initiate's Trial I would like to see some exploration of the centre of the continent of Paravia, in the region that appears to be outside of all the Kingdom borders.

1. Congratulations!!! Welcome to the insanity! (Grimward, your thoughts?)

2. Grimward and Procrastinator are the heretics. You, dekket, are True Believer of the One True Faith, namely, that Janny did not have a logical inconsistency between Grand Conspiracy and Stormed Fortress regarding Davien's Discorporation, and that Grimward and the Procrastinator simply keep on spinning their wheels (up to their axles in mud) believing otherwise, when it is obvious to anyone with any sense at all that we (and Janny) is right and they are wrong (to state the situation simply).

3. Yeah, with the second sneak preview the 2 centuries or so seems pretty much a done deal. I will miss Sulfin Evend. Who wouldn't? The institutionalization of the Light, despite it's founder, will cause resentment. It always does, despite the presence of the living god-man guy. A lot of his priests will be the corrupt bastards that manage to screw this world up for the rest of us (banking crisis, anyone?), and that will detract from his divinity. Plus, people are used to some people living for a very, very long time (F7, Dakar, Vorrain, Koriathain, etc.)

4. S'Ffalenn descendants? There was only one, and who is to say she lived past childhood? This is a medieval society, remember. High infant mortality. Maybe if she did live, she gets skewered by a headhunter's boar spear before she had kids? Maybe she becomes a great-grandmother with a gagillion descendants? I would not assume it, as that is always dangerous when speculating on Janny's scheming ways for telling this story (I swear I can hear someone cackling insanely right now. Really.) And how do you keep anything secret from the scrying claws of Morriel/Selidie?

5. Didn't Arithon survey Athera's oceans waaay back in Fugitive Prince?

6. Yes, the center of Paravia? What IS going on in there? I remember JW responding to someone noticing it back in 2007 on her website, and that "It has been there all along, and no one, until now, noticed..." (paraphrased, to be sure). I too, would like to see that explored.