GRRM's "Bad guys"

[AryaUnderfoot]

Just how bad are they? We've already witnessed how easy it is to come to love some of the characters we once thought of as bad or evil. Sandor Clegane, when seen from Sansa and Arya's PoVs, can evoke some pity from us. Jaime has shown that even though he can be heartless, when it boils down to it he is not completely without honor, especially after some life-changing events. So here are some I'd like to discuss:

Littlefinger- is he bad? We've seen what he can do, and he doesn't have any qualms about getting rid of people who are in his way.

Cersei- obviously the unveiling of her PoV in FFC will allow us to see more deeply into her soul. But as of now, do you feel that she is truly a bad person? (I think she's just twisted and very good at manipulating people, which begs another question- does she truly love Jaime? Or has she simply been manipulating him throughout, in order to gain power?)

Feel free to add any others to the list- that's all that I could come up with for now, but the topic interests me.

 

[Lacedaemonian]

You seem to be a very tolerant person.

 

[Blue Mythril]

I think Tyrion had Cersei down pat when he said that she lusts for power. She's dangerous and a bitch, but she also does love her children. I think that much is true. She was also pro mercy for Ned, she wanted to send him to the Night's Watch, too bad her son was such a git he thought it'd be amusing to remove his head.

Littlefinger, I really don;t like the guy. He just meddles in so much, and then screws things round. I think his feelings for Cat were real, but I just don't trust the guy, he seems to be the one character lacking in any definitive human emotions. Whats best for Littlefinger? whats his great big plan?

Oh, and Varys... he's an interesting one, I'd really love to know his background and where his views on what defines "the good of the realm" come from.

What about Rhaegar? He's one of those charchters, (yes I know he was 15 years dead at the start of book one) who inspire either love or hate. I think I like the guy, I'm not too sure whether he did rape Lyanna, but he seemed to be a guy of integrity, especially in contrast to his father and brother. I also have a sneaking suspicion that Jon's father isn't Ned. I believe his mother was Lyanna, with Rhaegar, perhaps (I'll underline that cos I'm a tad unsure on that still) as his father...

 

[LadyFel]

Cersei is, even from what I've read in the FFC chapter, still unchanged in my mind...I think she has a serious case of p**** envy, as I said on another topic, and although she makes serious blunders in some cases she's manipulative and evil enough to carry through her plans...I don't think she's truly evil, and yes, she does care for her chidren, but her fighting for them is more to do with the power she wields as the mother of a king than form her maternal feelings, they're sort of pushed back...As for her 'mercy' for NEd, that had nothing to do with the goodness of her heart, it was totally about making sure he was out of the way, but (had Joffrey been intelligent and mature enough to realise this and follow through) a way of keeping Sansa with them willingly, even still in love with her handsome prince.

Littlefinger...No...can't see ANY good in him...From the first, any 'good' deed he's done has either turned to ashes and turned out bad for someone or other, or has brought him personal gain...Unfortunately, people like himi almost always survive, and I'd SO like to see him kick the bucket, preferably at Sansa's hand, after she's learnt all he has to teach her...

I've actually started feeling a bit sorry for Viserys of all people...From Dany's memories of him when she was little...he wasn't always the crazy, bitter men he became, but as he was a child when he left King's Landing, I think a lot of the mindset he had was instilled in him by people with ulterior motives...I'm still glad he's out of the way though, with what he'd become he would have been a terrible monarch.

And Varys...I don't see him as bad or evil, really...his main job is to use the information at his disposal to try and keep the 'behind the scenes' stuff working...but I think he has some wish to see the Targaryens back where they belong...I think he's also very much involved in most, if not all the plots going on for that reason - if the country is in turmoil, they will be more likely to welcome Dany and her dragons as saviours than if there was peace. He's slimy, though, and he really bothers me.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

Jaime Lannister seemed like a pretty bad egg to me. There's incest, on top of everything else, and it was pretty ruthless the way he pushed Bran.


I have noticed though, in my admittedly limited brush with these books, that few of the bad guys are one-dimensional villains. That doesn't make them any less villainous, I think, but more complex and therefore engaging.

 

[Blue Mythril]

Ah but knivesout my dear, the complexity, especially with a character like Jaime, doesn't emerge til the later books. Which I understand you couldn't quite struggle through to Did you know... ah I was about to put in a big spoiler bit there, but i don't think this forum has the spoiler tags... well, Jaime gets his life turned upside down in book 3 I think. Loses something very important to him, he does seem to rediscover honour. Or at least, he decides to take his role as Commander of the Kingsguard seriously anyway...

Btw dude, its good to see you again, i've been gone way too long.

 

[Silk]

Most of his characters are pretty grey, I can't really decide one way or the other about them.

However I do think that Jeoffrey should die (if he hasn't already) and Lysa's boy who like to make people fly!

These are two example of kids who have been brought up with no morral values and a warped persepsion on the world - it is entirley their mothers fault but the only thing that can be done about it is to have the little brats drowned

 

[erickad71]

Welcome back Blue.

Silk, you really need to read A Storm of Swords! I think you will really enjoy it.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

LadyFel, I think you're pretty much right on about Cersei. In my opinion, she guards her children so because they are her link to the throne (albeit a false one). I also think that she never truly loved Jaime, not as anything more than a brother. She convinced him to take the white, telling him that they could be near each other, but I think she had other plans. Tywin immediately took her back to Casterly Rock. I think that Cersei meant to get Jaime out of the way, knowing that Tywin would never allow Tyrion to inherit the Lannister lands and titles, which left only her. Then Robert came along and King Aerys was killed, so she had to change her plans.

As far as her "mercy" for Ned goes, she was simply following advice from the Council. I don't think she gave a fig whether he lived or died- she could easily have reasoned with Joffrey when he gave the order to cut off Ned's head, but she wanted to save face. Not to mention, if she made Joffrey look weak and he lost power, she would lose power as well.

As for Littlefinger, I just can't bring myself to dislike him. He creeps me out in regards to Sansa, but I had a sudden burst of love for him when he made Lysa Arryn fly.

I think Varys is a lot like Tyrion- he lacks the physical prowess/manliness/what have you, to have any impact as a regular member of the court. Like Tyrion, he knows the value of knowledge, especially if it is kept under a tight rein. I think Varys is a true genius; he knows exactly what information to give to whom, and how much, in order to keep himself afloat and still ahead of the game. I dislike Varys when he's at court, but I can't deny that he does have some good qualities. As for the "good of the realm," I think Varys doesn't give a hoot who rules, so long as the nation doesn't completely crumble.

 

[Brian G Turner]

LadyFel, I think you're pretty much right on about Cersei. In my opinion, she guards her children so because they are her link to the throne (albeit a false one). I also think that she never truly loved Jaime, not as anything more than a brother. She convinced him to take the white, telling him that they could be near each other, but I think she had other plans. Tywin immediately took her back to Casterly Rock. I think that Cersei meant to get Jaime out of the way, knowing that Tywin would never allow Tyrion to inherit the Lannister lands and titles, which left only her. Then Robert came along and King Aerys was killed, so she had to change her plans.

That is really interesting reasoning.

I've not read Jaime's POV in III, so I've no idea whether he shows himself to have truly believed in chivalry in his younger years. Still, that would be quite a plan by Cersei...

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

That is really interesting reasoning.

I've not read Jaime's POV in III, so I've no idea whether he shows himself to have truly believed in chivalry in his younger years. Still, that would be quite a plan by Cersei...

I, Brian, I really suggest that you take a day off, call in sick or whatever, and read "A Storm of Swords." Good God man, how can you resist it? You should have seen my family when it came out- we made the mistake of buying only one copy, and chaos ensued. My mom got to read it first, and my brother would sneak into my parents' bedroom the second she fell asleep, and stay up reading it all night. Then I would sneak into his room early in the morning before work and get a couple of chapters in, before my mom woke up and took it back. Every time the book was set down in plain view, someone would pick it up and steal away with it, only to hear an outraged shriek when it was found missing. In retrospect, it was all pretty funny; we were like hungry wolves around a fresh kill.

My point- you know you want to read it. Everybody else is doing it, come on!

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

As for Littlefinger, I just can't bring myself to dislike him. He creeps me out in regards to Sansa, but I had a sudden burst of love for him when he made Lysa Arryn fly.

I think Varys is a lot like Tyrion- he lacks the physical prowess/manliness/what have you, to have any impact as a regular member of the court. Like Tyrion, he knows the value of knowledge, especially if it is kept under a tight rein. I think Varys is a true genius; he knows exactly what information to give to whom, and how much, in order to keep himself afloat and still ahead of the game. I dislike Varys when he's at court, but I can't deny that he does have some good qualities. As for the "good of the realm," I think Varys doesn't give a hoot who rules, so long as the nation doesn't completely crumble.

As much as I like Littlefinger (merely because he's had to use his wits to survive - imagine a Jimmy the Hand gone bad), I have to say that he is very amoral.
That's not the same as evil, but it's pretty damn close when you consider some of his actions. Pretty much everything Littlefinger does is to further his own ambitions. Varys and he are pretty much two sides of the same coin really, one will do anything (including shake up the existing power structure) to get what he wants, the other will do everything he can to keep the country stable.
It makes me wonder why Littlefinger has gone unopposed so long to be honest and why Varys didn't just poison him as soon as he figured out what he was. I suppose that answers who's the better "spider" really!

Very interestingly for me, the one chink in his armour is his love for Catelyn (which seems to have transfered to Sansa). I truly believe that Sansa is the only thing/one he cares about know and, I think, she'll be the one to bring him down! I shall now forewith refer to her as "Littlefinger's Kryptonite!"

 

[Jeroam]

I, Brian said:

I've not read Jaime's POV in III, so I've no idea whether he shows himself to have truly believed in chivalry in his younger years. Still, that would be quite a plan by Cersei...

There was a hint of understanding of chivalry when Jaime was young, but he was too young, and he's come to, uhm, well, wow, I can't say what I want to say because you haven't read it yet and I don't want to spoil anything, because they are good chapters with tons of crazy info, so I'm trying to figure out how to say...
In Jaime's later POV chapters, he's in the Kingsguard, you know that, so I don't think its a spoiler if I tell you he talks and interacts with other members of the Kingsguard. During the course of that interaction he compares himself to the others, and its very insightful and will answer your lingering questions about Jaime's motivations during his youth.
I don't think Cersei had this grand 10 year scheme in mind, especially when she was that young. I think her motivations were completely selfish, and she's just been doing what she thinks will get her the most. As she's grown, and matured, and learned more and more from the court, her plans have become much more intricate, and sophisticated, but remain driven by the same old selfishness.

 

[Jeroam]

Woah, while I was writing that post, 2 other people put up posts I haven't read. Sorry if I ended up just repeating things.

 

[Silk]

Silk, you really need to read A Storm of Swords! I think you will really enjoy it.

Just read the first few pages, am very excited but can not find enough time in the day to swallow the whole thing!!

 

[hodor]

I find it so great that this author doesn't put too much into making villians "villains". The bad guys (thus far) could be considered self centered or up for ulterior motives but I would not put any of them up for complete "villain" behavior. So great this PoV thing is that we see the perspectives of all sides of the story and it makes us realize there is more to the story than meets the eye. Also, it makes it really hard to consider a "bad guy" from book 1 and call him/her the same thing in the same sense after book 3.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Very true, Hodor, but I highly doubt I would change my opinion of Gregor Clegane or Bolton's ******* if I read their PoVs. Can't really boil those characters' actions down to being the result of a rough childhood, now, can we? They're just plain ----ed up.

 

[hodor]

Very true, Hodor, but I highly doubt I would change my opinion of Gregor Clegane or Bolton's ******* if I read their PoVs. Can't really boil those characters' actions down to being the result of a rough childhood, now, can we? They're just plain ----ed up.

Arguably so, however, many have managed to change their opinions on Sandor and Jaime (even if just to a point). In Martin's books all is not what meets the eye until you see it from that person's eye. I don't like alot of the characters but really like the way they are written. Given this, with the PoV, I can relate the character (whether I like them or not) and understand the underlaying motives. People do things for different reasons in his books but, none that I have seen thus far, has done things for no reason whatsoever.

 

[Septon McFly]

Just cause we saw Jamie Lannister's 'soft side' - doesn't take away from the fact he tossed Bran out the window . thats a pretty 'bad' thing to do, generally.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Very true!

welcome to the forum Septon!