GRRM's "Bad guys"

[hodor]

Aye... my wife did that as well last year when I first made her watch that movie. Poor french woman having to watch a movie about inbred americans... LOL

 

[Rahl Windsong]

Littlefinger is the most dangerous man, that has influence over the Iron Throne, especially now that Tryrion has killed <those who know who he killed will know who I mean I don't want to post a spoiler> Littlefinger will, in my humble oppinion, be the very first person Danaerys has to deal with when she comes with her dragons. I only hope she has become the person she needs to be when she has to confront Littlefinger.

Cersei is such a bitch that she will eventually bring herself to ruin and I suspect it will be Jaime who eventually has to kill her.

Rahl

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Cersei is such a bitch that she will eventually bring herself to ruin and I suspect it will be Jaime who eventually has to kill her.

Yeah, I've wondered if Jaime will kill her. Poor Jaime, I can't really see him being happy again.

 

[red_temple]

**SPOILER**


Especially without his right hand. In the Star Wars universe, they'd just give him a mechanical replacement, a light sabre, black armor, and a funny breathing aparatus. Probably wouldn't make him much happier, though, since he won't be able to show off his blonde hair and good looks anymore.

Seriously, I feel he's been transformed into a very tragic hero now. Now one of my favorites, I can't help but have a bad feeling about what may be in store for him.

 

[LadyFel]

Oh, I think Jaime will be ok...He's finally disillusioned enough to break off from his previous loyalties and do what's right, but still enough of a SoB to make sure it rankles with his enemies adn those who betrayed him as well as bring him advantage.

 

[red_temple]

...but still enough of a SoB to make sure it rankles with his enemies...

heh heh heh. I certainly hope so.....

 

[Sword of the Morning]

Bad guys of the series, hands down Tywin and Gregor. Tywin shows that he is heartless. I really think he had a hand in killing Joffrey. He did say that he would not go throught anoth Aerys. He know that Tommen would be easier to control. As for Gregor, come on, he kills babies, rapes women, and cuts porr slow stableboys to bites. He killed the Red Viper too. Damn him!

 

[Frey Slayer]

Bad guys of the series, hands down Tywin and Gregor. Tywin shows that he is heartless. I really think he had a hand in killing Joffrey. He did say that he would not go throught anoth Aerys. He know that Tommen would be easier to control. As for Gregor, come on, he kills babies, rapes women, and cuts porr slow stableboys to bites. He killed the Red Viper too. Damn him!

With Gregor in my opinion there certainly is no question.

With Tywin Im not entirely sure. He certainly seems like one stone cold S.O.B. but there is that single paragraph towards the end of the 3rd book. Kevan raises his voice for the first time (actually taking Tyrion aback with the emotion he showed) in defending Tywin and says some very interesting things about his brother's motivations. Certainly Kevan has his own opinions and he was defending his brother, who he loved, but what he stated may well have a lot of merit. Tywin too could well have been a product of his environment.
I have to say though that over the course of the 3 books that single paragraph is just about the only thing that gives me pause before passing judgement.

I guess I draw a line between "grey" and "black" (evil) when the characters behave cruelly for the sake of their own enjoyment or show a complete lack of empathy for their fellow man. Gregor falls into this category I believe. Joffrey certainly seemed to be heading in that direction. (remember him cutting open the cat as a child? **shiver**).
The Mad King certainly seemed cruel, possible because of mental derangement.
"Biter" also seems like nothing but a monster also.
So yeah, I think there are some degenerate monsters.

 

[Sword of the Morning]

With Gregor in my opinion there certainly is no question.

With Tywin Im not entirely sure. He certainly seems like one stone cold S.O.B. but there is that single paragraph towards the end of the 3rd book. Kevan raises his voice for the first time (actually taking Tyrion aback with the emotion he showed) in defending Tywin and says some very interesting things about his brother's motivations. Certainly Kevan has his own opinions and he was defending his brother, who he loved, but what he stated may well have a lot of merit. Tywin too could well have been a product of his environment.
I have to say though that over the course of the 3 books that single paragraph is just about the only thing that gives me pause before passing judgement

I truly forgot Kevan about Tyrion's chat in the black cell. I guess Tywin could/chould be in the grey section but the heartless way he disbatches the Frey's to take care of Robb is evil and then to say that his hands are clean is creepy. Also taking Shae into his bed after Tyrion was judge gulity in the eyes of man and god is rather cold.

 

[Jay]

I simply don't se what Tywin did taht was so evil. It seems every action he did was motivated by what should be msot improtant to him. The continuation of Lannister prestige and power.

Everybody else does the same, he was just much better at it then everyone else.

I don't consider Tywin evil at all.

 

[Sword of the Morning]

I forgot to mention Remsey Bolton. That *******! Well not anymore.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I simply don't se what Tywin did taht was so evil. It seems every action he did was motivated by what should be msot improtant to him. The continuation of Lannister prestige and power.

Everybody else does the same, he was just much better at it then everyone else.

I don't consider Tywin evil at all.

I can understand thinking that Tywin's motivations are in some cases justifiable. Sure, it's a great thing to want to keep up the family name and so on and so forth. However, the means by which he supposedly increases the Lannister prestige are not justifiable. I don't care how much Tywin's pride meant to him- the fact of the matter is that Tywin had pride without honor. Using a monster like Gregor Clegane to do his dirty work, allowing his own son to go through years of pain and humiliation, including forcing him to witness the rape and degredation of his wife- all of these things point towards an evil man. No, he is not as bad as Gregor, but in some ways I think he's worse. Gregor is like a rabid dog, without intelligence or tact. Tywin has shown himself to be an intelligent man, but he lacks a conscience, something which probably would have aided him ambitions and given him pause before some of his more rash decisions.

 

[Sword of the Morning]

I think that Tywin's past has shaped him into the monster of shorts. His father was openly mocked by Lannister bannermen and some openly defied Tywin's father. Even his mistress stole from him. Tywin suffered humiliation at a yound age. It was Tywin that restored the Lannister by being brutal, a few of Tywin's bannermen families were complete destroyed.Those who rebelled against House Lannister were put to the sword. Tywin also was robbed of his heir to Casterly Rock by King Aerys. He was King Aerys hand for twenty years (I think). He brought peace and plenty to the realm, yet he suffered slights beyond count as Ser Kevan put it. And to tope it off he lost his wife, the one who ruled him, not only that but Tyrion is a long living slight against his work.

With all that is said above, do you really think that Tywin could not have became more ruthless or monsterous to fill in the bad guy rule in the book. I see that events have changed him. The death of Joanna, his wife, really shaped him towards a cold heartless man. Could you order one of your underlings to kill two children, one still at the breast of Elia?

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I think that Tywin's past has shaped him into the monster of shorts. His father was openly mocked by Lannister bannermen and some openly defied Tywin's father. Even his mistress stole from him. Tywin suffered humiliation at a yound age. It was Tywin that restored the Lannister by being brutal, a few of Tywin's bannermen families were complete destroyed.Those who rebelled against House Lannister were put to the sword. Tywin also was robbed of his heir to Casterly Rock by King Aerys. He was King Aerys hand for twenty years (I think). He brought peace and plenty to the realm, yet he suffered slights beyond count as Ser Kevan put it. And to tope it off he lost his wife, the one who ruled him, not only that but Tyrion is a long living slight against his work.

There are better ways to gain the loyalty of your bannermen, as the historic Starks had shown with the rough Northmen. And while Tywin was cunning and ruthless, there are many cases in which he could have shown a lot more tact and foresight. Beginning with the slight of his own deformed son, who proved to be the most intelligent and noteworthy of his children, not to mention the source of his death. A better, smarter man than Tywin would have seen Tyrion as a tool, and instead of mistreating his own family member, would have found a way to show pride in his son to dispell all of the grotesque rumors about him.

King Aerys did not steal Jaime away from Tywin- Cersei did. Cersei, another lamentable product of Tywin's rule of the Lannister house.

Call me a bleeding-heart, but I could never respect a man who would be instrumental in taking the lives of children. And as far as losing his wife goes, well... Ned Stark lost three family members in horrible ways, and look how far his honor fell.

 

[Duff_Omathum]

My Bad Guys list (in order of badness...)

1. Ser Gregor Clegane [his POV would be just too scary!]
2. Aerys Targaryen II
3. Joffrey Baratheon
4. Petyr Baelish
5. Cersei Lanister
6. Vargo Hoat [Thilienth!!]
7. Walder Frey
8. Theon Greyjoy

And my Good Guys list...
1. Barristan Selmy
2. Jon Snow
3. Daenerys Targaryen
4. Jamie Lannister
5. Sandor Clegane [my favorite character]
6. Arya Stark
7. Tyrion Lannister
8. Davos Seaworth

 

[Direwolf]

My Bad Guys list (in order of badness...)

1. Ser Gregor Clegane [his POV would be just too scary!]
2. Aerys Targaryen II
3. Joffrey Baratheon
4. Petyr Baelish
5. Cersei Lanister
6. Vargo Hoat [Thilienth!!]
7. Walder Frey
8. Theon Greyjoy

And my Good Guys list...
1. Barristan Selmy
2. Jon Snow
3. Daenerys Targaryen
4. Jamie Lannister
5. Sandor Clegane [my favorite character]
6. Arya Stark
7. Tyrion Lannister
8. Davos Seaworth

I agree with the bad guys list, though I think Tywin belongs on that list for the same general reasons as Walder Frey. As for the good guys list, it seems a little weird that Bran isn't on there, yet the guy who crippled him by throwing him out of the tower window is. That incident alone will forever keep Jaime off my good guys list.

 

[Duff_Omathum]

Well, the good guys are the one's I like really. I'm not really as excited about reading Bran as I am the others. Also, I like the theme of redemption in novels.

As for the bad guys list. I can't really find myself hating Tywin, he seems a man who was driven to hardness and acts to protect the overall future of his family. In many ways he is similar to Stannis I think.

In fact, had his plans worked out Ned would have survived. Tywin would probably packed Cersei off to be married again and ruled as Hand quite well. The flaw in this plan was of course Joffrey, and inderectly Cersei.

I could see Danny or Jon turning out the same, or even Sansa (I have a hunch she is going to become a ruthless player of the Game under Littlefinger later)

 

[Rahl Windsong]

There are better ways to gain the loyalty of your bannermen, as the historic Starks had shown with the rough Northmen. And while Tywin was cunning and ruthless, there are many cases in which he could have shown a lot more tact and foresight. Beginning with the slight of his own deformed son, who proved to be the most intelligent and noteworthy of his children, not to mention the source of his death. A better, smarter man than Tywin would have seen Tyrion as a tool, and instead of mistreating his own family member, would have found a way to show pride in his son to dispell all of the grotesque rumors about him.

King Aerys did not steal Jaime away from Tywin- Cersei did. Cersei, another lamentable product of Tywin's rule of the Lannister house.

Call me a bleeding-heart, but I could never respect a man who would be instrumental in taking the lives of children. And as far as losing his wife goes, well... Ned Stark lost three family members in horrible ways, and look how far his honor fell.

Excellently said! Tyrion should have been used to further the interests of House Lannister. If Tywin had used Tyrion for this, I doubt anyone could have ever brought any opposition to thier claim to the throne. Tyrion is the only genious in the family. He could never be seen as the ruler behind House Lannister because of his deformity but he should have been the one making most of the decisions behind the scenes. This was Tywin's fatal mistake, and it really was not a mistake, as you pointed out, the man was too ignorant to see beyond his deformed son's body.

I remember starting A Game of Thrones, years ago, and how I absolutely hated Tyrion. Over the course of the next two books I have come to think of Tyrion as my favortite character in the story. A brilliant character and the role of a lifetime if this story ever gets made into a movie.

Rahl