George R. R. Martin v. Robert Jordan

She was NEVER raped. Granted, she didn't love Drogo yet for she didnt even know him, but back then a husband had "rights" to his wife that were expected. If u reread her chapter u'll see that she is just nervous, scared although I am sure somewhat curious it being her first time for sex. She never tells him to stop and he never takes her against her will.

To add, she also takes control of the situation and, in essence, the entire relationship that night. That's really what it is about. Without her control of the relationship, Drogo would never have consented to being treated by the witch. He wouldn't have died. Dany wouldn't have her dragons.

Soulsinging: Stick with Sansa. Her story gets quite interesting and outrageous. Bran never improves. You're one of the few people who doesn't hate Catelyn. Maybe she becomes a lot more easier to hate in the next two books. It's tough to remember. It all blends together for me. Anyway, Jon and Tyrion stay awesome and even get better. Ned, well, yeah, you know what happens to Ned. You also pick up Jaime in later books and his chapters are great as well.
 
How do u guys do that thing where u grab what someone said and post it in ur next reply?? I've been here a year and don't know :(
 
OK .....Soulsinger, let me try and give an angle u might not have seen. :)

GRRM is very very realistic with his characters and how things happen. Good doesnt always win, people are two-faced, spiteful, hardships etc etc etc ...

i get that and it's fine with me. i'm a big hard-boiled detective fan and those novels often have the bad men walking away and leaving the good damaged, no happy ending, very gritty, etc. that's not the problem. part of it might be my tastes though... i read fantasy when i don't WANT something realistic. there's also a difference between realistic and boring. i could write a very realistic story about my day, but nobody wants to read it because it's boring. i felt that way about parts of GoT. sure it's realistic, but parts of it are also very boring and repetitive. i get it, sansa is spoiled and her sister is mean. i get it, drogo is the sun and stars and she loves riding a horse (pun intended).

Now Dany has no money, no support and really no drive for anything because she was only a littel girl who deferred to her brother. In a GoT she is traveling with her husbands people and finding out who she really is outside of her brothers shadow. Discovering the way the world really is and so forth. That takes time. If it was another cliche series she would miraculously figure it all out and then strike the villains down in one swift blow.

Her drive IS going to Westeros though. It just takes time, monies, allies and well, lets face it she is half way across the world without either of those. I wouldnt go home where my family and supporters have been butchered unless I had help or a tank. :p

As to her marriage: In those times most marriages of high birth were for political reasons and had nothing to do with love or feelings, but duty and need. Her own marriage was for an army. Her brother was her elder and rightful king therefore she did her duty in accepting the marriage for the given reasons. She was NEVER raped. Granted, she didn't love Drogo yet for she didnt even know him, but back then a husband had "rights" to his wife that were expected. If u reread her chapter u'll see that she is just nervous, scared although I am sure somewhat curious it being her first time for sex. She never tells him to stop and he never takes her against her will.

i'm aware of what happened in those times. but this is supposed to be fantasy, not "those times." if i want details of medieval customs, i can read an equally boring history textbook. and my problem wasn't the actual fact of her marriage, it was the way she went from being terrified in one chapter to suddenly being madly in love with an worshipping drogo. meanwhile, sansa and arya have dozens of chapters where they develop (at similar ages) so slowly as to be glacial. and once dany DOES assume her role as a princess, there are dozens more chapters where NOTHING happens to her. just her travelling to more places and seeing more things, none of which advances any plot or adds to the sense of her being a stranger in a strange land.

maybe it's not fair to compare to tolkien, but part of his appeal might be that he had an economy of language. in one chapter, he can create a lived in lothlorien and then move on. yes, dany needs to learn to rule and raise an army and whatnot, and no it should not magically happen overnight. but it also does not require the kind of page count it gets here and (from what i understand) then next 2-thousand page books. as i mentioned before, aragorn learns to be a king and a leader and raise armies in 2 chapters. frodo learns to stand on his own in the dark in only a fraction of the number of pages these books have. dany could have her whole plotline done in 3-4 chapters, when here she gets twice that. sansa, who grows not a bit and adds nothing to the plot in GoT, gets as many chapters. it just seems to move at a glacial pace... like WoT once it went into its holding pattern.

i guess i'm generally just trying to convince myself one way or another. it's reassuring to hear that sansa's story becomes slightly more complelling, and maybe i'll like dany more sans drogo. we'll see about bran and catelyn. i just feel a bit disheartened at the prospect of reading another 2000 pages knowing that at least half of the chapters i won't want to read because the characters are dreadfully boring.

or maybe i'm just worn down from trying to read this while i take classes! i guess the fact that i'm writing so much about the darn books is a sign that it's certainly got me thinking, hehe.

oh, the way to grab someone else's post is when you read their post, on the bottom right is a button that says "quote." click that and it will set you up with their post already in your reply box.
 
Although there are several things that are really worth reading about in the next few books (especially Tyrion's and Jaime's bits), I don't think you're going to like them enough, soul. From the list of your complaints so far it seems that maybe aSoIaF is not exactly to your tastes. There *will* be more chapters where you find things boring and not moving the plot along. If I were you, I guess I'd give it a skip. (And I'm a big fan here trying to speak neutrally).

- Dreir -
 
Although there are several things that are really worth reading about in the next few books (especially Tyrion's and Jaime's bits), I don't think you're going to like them enough, soul. From the list of your complaints so far it seems that maybe aSoIaF is not exactly to your tastes. There *will* be more chapters where you find things boring and not moving the plot along. If I were you, I guess I'd give it a skip. (And I'm a big fan here trying to speak neutrally).

- Dreir -

i think im going to take a crack at a clash of kings and see how it goes. i may wait for winter break though, so i can try it when i don't feel so rushed and can let it sink in. it's tough to get into a rhythm with it when i'm reading it around legal textbooks and only catching it a chapter at a time. i appreciate the honest response though. i'm not trying to be the jerk who strolls into the martin forum to rip the book apart. i'm mainly trying to gauge if i'm having an abnormal reaction to the book or if others have struggled with it at times but found it worth it in the end. from some of the praise it gets, you'd think it never has a single misstep or dull moment.
 
from some of the praise it gets, you'd think it never has a single misstep or dull moment.

Ha, try reading some of the criticism of A Feast For Crows (even here on this forum). I really liked AFFC but I think I'm in the minority. If you do get that far I recommend not waiting at all and reading it directly after A Storm of Swords. I believe it has a much better effect and the pacing makes a lot more sense. However, I think dreir might be right. Maybe the series just isn't for you. Let us know how you feel after A Clash of Kings.
 
Is that Alizee in Dreir's avatar? I approve.

Anyway, so yes, it seems as if this series is just not the genre you're looking for. I suggest you try something more like The Lies of Locke Lamora.
 
Is that Alizee in Dreir's avatar? I approve.
Yes it is. I have her all over the place - in downloaded videos, as revolving wallpapers (many of which I put together myself from collections of her pics), in the living room photo frame (yeah right), etc. :D

- Dreir -
 
Personally if I don't have something to read I go nuts, so I have read both series and I would suggest that Martin's series is far superior to Jordan's. Martin tells a really gripping story and the only complaint I have with the series so far is the last book, A Feast for Crows did not have all the characters in it like the previous books.

I really think that the desicion to divide the characters instead of just dividing the text and printing "to be continued in A Dance With Dragon's" would have been a much better choice then leaving out the most interesting characters in this excellent story. I really did feel somewhat ripped off with AFFC because I only got half the characters, and I suppose if he ever does manage to finish the series it will not matter as much because then all the books will be available. But until then we don't know what Tyrion is up to and that is just not acceptable, like I said I had that feeling of being ripped off with AFFC and it won't go away any time soon.
 
I'm not the biggest Tyrion fan
Thou wast ever an obstinate heretic, Cul.

We've hashed and rehashed the reasons for the division of books. It is what it is. Though I tend to think that if Martin had gone chronologically instead of regionally, then those of us Tyrion, Jon, and Dany fanatics would have almost skipped over the Brienne, Areo, Arys, Arianne, Asha, Aeron, and Victarion chapters trying to get more of our old favorites.

I wonder about the creative process that Martin went/ is going through in finishing the AFFC/ADWD story. Did he attempt to write the story chronologically? Does he get into a character and take that character as far as he can and then switch to another character? I wonder if the writing processes for the first three books were character driven or timeline driven?

I wonder how many times Martin writes a chapter and then realizes the story would be better told from a different character's point of view? Take for instance the Kingsmoot of the Ironborn. GRRM could have given us Asha or Victarion instead of Aeron. How about Joffrey's and Margaery's wedding? We saw it from Tyrion's POV, yet it could have come from Sansa or even Cersei. Now the ultimate confluence of POV characters is at Robert's feast at Winterfell. We get that story courtesy of Jon, but also present were Eddard, Catelyn, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Theon, Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion. So did GRRM write the Kingsmoot from Asha's POV and then realize that it could be better told from Victarion's POV and then after writing that realize that Aeron's would be better still? I wonder.
 
We've hashed and rehashed the reasons for the division of books. It is what it is. Though I tend to think that if Martin had gone chronologically instead of regionally, then those of us Tyrion, Jon, and Dany fanatics would have almost skipped over the Brienne, Areo, Arys, Arianne, Asha, Aeron, and Victarion chapters trying to get more of our old favorites.

I fancy if he'd split it in two chronologically, folks would still be annoyed. Except they'd be saying, 'Why'd you leave Tyrion/Jon/Dany/Whoever with such a cliffhanger and then make us wait fourteen years for the next book?' instead of the current, 'Why'd you leave Tyrion/Jon/Dany/Whoever out altogether and then make us wait fourteen years for the next book?'
 
This thread gave me a hell of a laugh just now. I haven't checked up on it in literally months and it had hit a roadblock of sorts and now I just look at it and it's 7 pages long. Really got me laughing, especially because I had no idea what you guys were talking about when I looked at the last few comments.
 
Personally I really liked WoT, even the later books that some call poor. I admit to being agravated from time to time when he seemed unable to tie off any loose ends or if he did he would untie them in a later book.

As far as GRRM and his books I admit to haveing a personal bias against him. I have been lucky enough to have met both of them although it was years apart as they both were guests at a convention which I have been going to for the last 30 plus years in St Louis. When I met GRRM he was a relatively new author and I had purchased and read what I think was his first book at the time "Dying of the Light" and took it to the convention to get it signed by him since I knew he was going to be a guest. When I met him and asked him to sign my copy, he refused and stated he would only sign books that had been purchased from him. So I have to admit I have not purchased a book he has written since then. I have purchased the Wildcard books he edited though however.
 
Late to the table I know and this is my first post but my experience was that once I started reading tWoT I couldn't put it down and devoured the entire series voraciously.
aSoIaF whilst having individual interesting moments is very much repetitive with one army marching on another army, having a battle, a major / minor character dies, repeat ad nauseum apart from the odd high points.
I stopped half way through book two for about four months before picking it up again but have only got a few chapters further.
I could reread tWoT tomorrow and there are always further little nuances to pick up that you may have missed previously.
For anyone slagging the tWoT series perhaps they just need to stick to the Harry Potter children's series.
 
Non, they can't read...
Sorry but why wasn't this post deleted. Surely one of the requirements was not to be insulting about fellow posters - or doesn't it matter because it wasn't aimed at a single person? Is it Ok for me to respond then that any aSoIaF luvvy who prefers that to tWoT has obviously not reached puberty and should be more concerned with doing their homework?
I first picked up tEotW when my two eldest sons had just finished tLotR and my brief was to find the largest fantasy book available as a follow up. At the time I didn't realise that this was the start of a series and book 6 had just been released.
Both of my sons have thoroughly enjoyed tWoT but neither have enjoyed the aSoIaF book series and have given up reading it and taken to the GoT TV series instead.
I'm sure this reply will be deleted which will obviously prove my point.
 
above them (if it's an old maids with erm a lifetime of baby feeding)

or over them if they are less endowed? . . .

:p

RJ sucks, GRRM is awesome (but is taking to long with the next volume)


I'd say the opposite. RJ is / was awesome along with Brandon Sanderson. I can't say what GRRM is like but his books are nowhere near the quality of RJ's. I have found storylines wanting and only one or two points of interest in each book.
 
No this thread asks a specific question . . . Mr Jordan is losing quite convincingly I'm afraid! :p


As for setting in for a patient wait for GRRM's next installment!!! Well it was you GRRM lunatic's on here that persuaded me to give it ago 2 years ago!!! Now I am a freak like you lot!! I am not a patient person. I also now will have to re-read the entire series once a definate date is announced for the new arrival!! (Not that it will be a hardship) :D

I think you'll find far more websites devoted to tWoT than aSoIaF. It says more about the people responding on this blog than the relative merits of the two series that most here prefer the latter.
 

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