Martin, Sexuality and Age (Formerly, 'Is George...?')

[AlexM]

Oh gee i'm reading A Game Of Thrones and whenever its a chapter on Dany she tends to be having sex with a guy twice or three times her age.

Honestly wth, she is 13!

Anyone share the same point? =P

- Alex

 

[Werthead]

Re: is George a Pedo?

No more than Thomas Harris is a flesh-eating maniacal serial killer or Anne Rice drinks the blood of people (as far as I know). Seriously, your thread title is rather offensive and not particularly funny.

As for that storyline, as has been discussed umpteen times, ASoIaF takes place in a world closely based on Medieval Europe, in which times girls were considered women and marriageable even younger than Dany. What we find unacceptable in 2008 has no bearing on what was found unacceptable or not in 1300, for example.

 

[Overread]

Re: is George a Pedo?

Werthead sums it up - the imagination can be a dark thing as can the records of history - espcially by todays (western nations generally speaking) standards. George is keeping in the theme of being in a past time and a different time.

ps - if authors one and all were like their works I would be scared of the vampire writers - horror writers and those ones that write of demons, doom and destruction

 

[Connavar]

Re: is George a Pedo?

I dont think he is pedo.

I thought it was sick he showed her getting raped cause of her age. Of course later she fell for the mean,cold husband of hers. Which was totaly unrealistic even for a story like this. To change your feelings about someone like him so fast.

The age thing belongs in a medevil world but the rape was pointless and gimmicky showing it just to shock people.

Its apparently not uncommon with these kind of fantasy books. Reading about others series i have seen that.

They think rape is a tool to make the story darker. Very lazy IMO.

When i read books like that im glad i prefer other types of fantasy.

 

[scalem X]

Re: is George a Pedo?

I don't see it like you, connavar. Martin describes in detail, it would be strange to have savages constantly killing each other and being the brave lover kind of type. Actually a whole part in a feast for crows, I find pretty boring, but since Martin describes everything, it needs to be written down and some parts are more boring than others and so on.

Also about the ages it's a fantasy world, I feel more like the general things the characters do as a description as to how long one year lasts in that world. After all if you have longer winters and summers and who knows what else, how can one be sure 13 in that world is the same as it is in our world? And yeah the middle ages also explain it partially.

 

[Connavar]

Re: is George a Pedo?

I don't see it like you, connavar. Martin describes in detail, it would be strange to have savages constantly killing each other and being the brave lover kind of type. Actually a whole part in a feast for crows, I find pretty boring, but since Martin describes everything, it needs to be written down and some parts are more boring than others and so on.

Also about the ages it's a fantasy world, I feel more like the general things the characters do as a description as to how long one year lasts in that world. After all if you have longer winters and summers and who knows what else, how can one be sure 13 in that world is the same as it is in our world? And yeah the middle ages also explain it partially.

Somethings you dont put in the face of readers.

Its a huge weakness and why i didnt like the series. The fact that he has write everything down.

If he had more ability he could wrote that scene so well that it didnt feel like a gimmick. He could make it look horrible without using it to shock.

Ace was right with his diss of GRRM. He is more about killing characters for the thrill,shock then writing a good story.

If his world was an interesting fantasy world i would have stand things better. It was the most clichè medevil fantasy i have seen.

The Starks and the Lannister thing was more soap opera alà Bold and The Beautiful....

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Re: is George a Pedo?

I dislike the name of this thread. To paraphrase what someone said above, just because someone writes about vampires it doesn't necessarily follow that they suck blood -- or even want to.

However, I also take issue with this statement:

As for that storyline, as has been discussed umpteen times, ASoIaF takes place in a world closely based on Medieval Europe, in which times girls were considered women and marriageable even younger than Dany. What we find unacceptable in 2008 has no bearing on what was found unacceptable or not in 1300, for example.

And in every one of those umpteen instances people have failed to note that there is some reason to doubt that those marriages were even consummated before the brides were much older. Sometimes the bride and groom didn't even live together. And if it was commonplace for these young girls to be having sexual relations with their husbands you might expect a large number of them to be getting pregnant at thirteen or fourteen, which doesn't seem to be the case.

But even if such things were common during that era, it would still be unecessary for a writer to describe them in such intimate and prolonged detail. It's there because he thinks it makes the story more interesting.

I agree with Connavar. In this, as on several other points, the author is not basing his story on the real Middle Ages, but on what modern readers think the Middle Ages were like.

 

[scalem X]

Re: is George a Pedo?

I do wonder what kept you reading, Connavar. After all there seem to be only bad points to the series. Surely if you disliked them that much you must have stoped after the first 20 pages and not have gotten to the part we're discussing now.

Somethings you dont put in the face of readers.

I've read worse in non-fiction. I've read ten times worse in fiction. Nobel prize winners included (Elfriede Jelinek for example). Surely there are more to the books than those meager 10 or so of the 800 pages that touch on sexual themes.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Re: is George a Pedo?

Surely if you disliked them that much you must have stoped after the first 20 pages and not have gotten to the part we're discussing now.

scalem, these forums are full of people who think that once they start reading something they have to read it all the way through whether they like it or not.

I don't know whether Connavar is one of them, or if he was like me: I kept putting down the first book and thinking, "That's enough," but I heard so many good things about the series that I kept going back just to see if I was missing something. By the time I reached the end of A Game of Thrones I figured that it was time to stop looking for something that obviously wasn't there for me.

 

[Koopa]

Re: is George a Pedo?

I dislike the name of this thread. To paraphrase what someone said above, just because someone writes about vampires it doesn't necessarily follow that they suck blood -- or even want to.

However, I also take issue with this statement:

And in every one of those umpteen instances people have failed to note that there is some reason to doubt that those marriages were even consummated before the brides were much older. Sometimes the bride and groom didn't even live together. And if it was commonplace for these young girls to be having sexual relations with their husbands you might expect a large number of them to be getting pregnant at thirteen or fourteen, which doesn't seem to be the case.

But even if such things were common during that era, it would still be unecessary for a writer to describe them in such intimate and prolonged detail. It's there because he thinks it makes the story more interesting.

I agree with Connavar. In this, as on several other points, the author is not basing his story on the real Middle Ages, but on what modern readers think the Middle Ages were like.

They did get pregnant at that age, even now people get pregnant at that age, it is not so uncommon in certain even nowadays. That said, in medieval Europe it was less so than in other parts of the world. It was one of the reasons why the population for a long time did not grow much longer, in contrast to other parts of the world, because of certain influences (during harvest season there was hardly time for sex, people worked too hard it was too tiring, influence of the church, ...) Also there is a difference between the common born and the wealthy as well. Though during the time of the pest there where excesses upon excesses out of fear of death. The part where Dany is in, seems more like the mongolian steppe, and the eastern lands, in those parts they married and had children faster than in the European medieval counterpart. A girl having sex from the moment she has ovulated was considered normal there. So yes in real life during that time they did get pregnant at that age. (It was one of the reasons why more people died during childbirth because there bodies (bekken in dutch perhaps romp in english) is still smaller, more fragile at that age.

As for the author killing of people just to schock seems ridiculous to me.
To me their deaths seem real, there are no people who can miraculously live while battling 20 odd foes and so on. It is real/ Not like belgarion and co. The intrigues, are true intrigues with the switching of sides and so on. The scenes show an evoltion in dany's thought patron. They are of real value to the story.

Sex is a huge part of life, without it we 'd die out, moreover humans are one of the few species who have sex for enjoyment. This are not children's books, and GRRM considering the storyline has not gone overboard.

This is definitly a well thought of fantasy world, saying it is lacking is just laughable, seeing as there is so much thought for the details, the subtle interweaving of magic, burning swords, dragons, glass candles, ... but in a more realistic feeling way.

Also my guess for the falling in love of dany, is the fact that unlike her brother, he holds real power, he is not petty or so on, and she is somewhat awed with it, also it is shown that she has comes to enjoy having sex, that probably helped too seeing as he was her first as well as she being so young.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Re: is George a Pedo?

They did get pregnant at that age, even now people get pregnant at that age.

That's my point. Girls can get pregnant at that age, if they are having sex. But you don't hear much about that among those dynastic marriages, where surely it would be mentioned, which rather suggests that consummating the marriage at an early age was not the commonplace people like to think it was.

That said, in medieval Europe it was less so than in other parts of the world.

Which would rather tend to support the contention that they weren't, as a general rule, having marital sex at that age.

Anyway, my point is that many readers just accept the idea of child marriages and little girls having sex with their husbands at 12 or 13 simply because it's one of those things that "everyone knows." They haven't read any of the arguments for and against the idea. But those marriages weren't about sex and getting down to the business of having babies immediately, they were about land and money and politics. Even among the lower classes they were often about an exchange of property.

the subtle interweaving of magic, burning swords, dragons

It's interesting that you should mention these things, because I hear so many fans saying they admire the books for their lack of fantasy elements.

 

[Overread]

Re: is George a Pedo?

I think its more that in many books writers make up for things with magic - a magic sword - a magic spell to cure an illness - whilst in ASOIAF there is a full and functioning non-magic world that has the feel of realistic completness to it - the magic is an extra on top = even though it is key to the telling and weaving of the story

 

[scalem X]

Re: is George a Pedo?

This is definitly a well thought of fantasy world, saying it is lacking is just laughable, seeing as there is so much thought for the details, the subtle interweaving of magic, burning swords, dragons, glass candles, ... but in a more realistic feeling way.

saying it is perfect for everyone is also a bit over the top, I think. I like the series a lot, but I'm not a fanatic fussing over some book which everyone should find brilliant. Not the bible, not the quran, not this one.

Anyway I think we can all agree that his books are no reason to judge him. To be honest I dislike the title of this thread too and this is my last reply in the hope it will sink fast. I think everyone agrees that the topic is a non-issue. Some side tracked discussions can be continued in another thread.
Vote one for locking of this thread. (unsubscribes)

 

[viZion]

Re: is George a Pedo?

I thought it was sick he showed her getting raped cause of her age. Of course later she fell for the mean,cold husband of hers. Which was totaly unrealistic even for a story like this. To change your feelings about someone like him so fast.

I think you and I have been reading two different series. Raped? This is an absolutely and completely inaccurate description of Dany's wedding night! I'm not even sure how you could come to this conclusion at all. I'm not saying you have to like the scene or the series and I'm not going to even bother to explain the significance of the event. However, the scene is *clearly* not a rape.

First, the entire scene lasts just over one page in the book. That's it. Starting at the bottom of page 107 of the U.S. paperback and ending on page 108. The entire scene is very gentle. Drogo is extremely gentle, takes his time, and even repeatedly asks Dany if she's ready yet during the foreplay. How is that a rape? It's not until Dany says she's she wants to that they proceed to have sex.

In this series people are considered adults at a far younger age. I don't even care if it's based on what times were really like in the Middle Ages. GRRM has created his own world. It's a world where teenagers marry, have sex, serve as knights in war, and rule entire nations. That's just something you have to accept about his world. If you don't accept it, that's fine, but please don't post blatantly wrong information or interpretations.

 

[Marky Lazer]

Re: is George a Pedo?

Fiction writers hardly ever write about what they do. I honestly never put maggots into someone's stomach, I never ate a baby, I never tortured anyone with starved crows... you want me to go on?

And if he would be a pedophile, he would surely not write about it! Because it would be very stupid to draw attention to it if he were. I find your question really silly.

 

[Boaz]

Re: is George a Pedo?

Pedo? It took me a few seconds to figure this out. At first, I thought it was Spanish... pedo means fart in Spanish. Or I thought mayhaps the OP meant pedorrero... a farter.

Seriously, do you think someone would write for fourteen years and amass thousands and thousands of pages just to include a few paragraphs of a married thirteen year old girl's wedding night?

You could more readily say that Martin is a mysogynist due the various scenes of rape, physical violence, and low social status of women in ASOIAF. You could also claim he's an advocate for women's rights by looking at Cersei, Dany, Catelyn, Ygritte, Mel, Brienne, Arianne, Sansa, Margaery, etc. and the ways that they've struggled for and achieved respect, rights, and power. But if you take the body of work that is ASOIAF as a whole, then you'll see he neither hates women nor favors them. I'm not claiming that man is completely fair, 50-50, but he strikes a great balance. The POVs go along way in showing how women (and men and children) are viewed in Westeros. From one POV something is abuse, but from another it's a necessity.

How many people have either died in combat or been assassinated so far in the story? Literally dozens and dozens, if not hundreds, of named characters have had their demises described. Yet no one here is labeling Martin an assassin or devil worshipper.

How many characters have drank alcoholic beverages? Hundreds, including children. Yet no one is calling Martin an alcoholic or an advocate for underage drinking.

How many characters serve, owe fealty, acknowledge an overlord, or are outright slaves in ASOIAF? Thousands, yet I don't see anyone labeling Martin a royalist, a totalitarian, or a despot? He's certainly not villified as anti-democratic.

Claiming that Martin has a grudge against organized religion, that he has an axe to grind against near sighted politicians, or that he regularly comments upon the fragility of peace in a civilized society are charges that you can lay at his door. I believe that he'd personally like to see many reforms in political, religious, and social behavior. These are topics Martin talks about in his books.

Yet, I think that Martin would not want his books to be read as allegory.

I think ASOIAF is what it is. Martin, a talented writer, is trying to create a fantastic semi-historical world of epic geo-political, religious, and social struggles. Slavery, alcoholism, fidelity, death, rape, marriage, friendship, revolution, theft, depression, love, lust, faith, and betrayal are just part of the myriad actions and events of humanity. Westeros is not always equitable, or even analogous, with our 21st century Anglo-American, Judeo-Christian, and democratic views.

 

[Koopa]

Re: is George a Pedo?

That's my point. Girls can get pregnant at that age, if they are having sex. But you don't hear much about that among those dynastic marriages, where surely it would be mentioned, which rather suggests that consummating the marriage at an early age was not the commonplace people like to think it was.

Which would rather tend to support the contention that they weren't, as a general rule, having marital sex at that age.

Anyway, my point is that many readers just accept the idea of child marriages and little girls having sex with their husbands at 12 or 13 simply because it's one of those things that "everyone knows." They haven't read any of the arguments for and against the idea. But those marriages weren't about sex and getting down to the business of having babies immediately, they were about land and money and politics. Even among the lower classes they were often about an exchange of property.

It's interesting that you should mention these things, because I hear so many fans saying they admire the books for their lack of fantasy elements.

You're right, when you say that most marriages like that where political, and that most of them where consummated later on (among the higher class). Even then their where marriages where women did have sex at that age in medieval Europe. Also and this is a very important point, whereas westeros is very like medieval Europe, Dany at that moment is not in westeros. She is with the Dotreaki, aka like the mongolian tribes and so on. And historically women their had sex years before European women did. Meaning that having sex at 14-15 there was normal, more the rule then the exception. Dany at 13-14 is perhaps slightly younger, but not much so, no more then a year. And since Dany seems rather mature (bodywise) ,for that part of the world, marrying and consummating that marriage is normal.

Also scalemX i never said the world created by GRRM was perfect for anyone, however it is clearly a wellthought of phantasyworld so saying it is inadequate even if you dont like the world GRRM created doesn't make sense.

Wanted to add the following PS:
Is it me or is this thread giving a deja-vu feeling?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Re: is George a Pedo?

Raped? This is an absolutely and completely inaccurate description of Dany's wedding night! I'm not even sure how you could come to this conclusion at all. Drogo is extremely gentle, takes his time, and even repeatedly asks Dany if she's ready yet during the foreplay. How is that a rape?

It's rape if you believe that sex between an adult and a girl her age is inherently an act of rape. If you think that he shouldn't have been having foreplay with her in the first place. And it's no use saying it would have been acceptable back then. I can remember when marital rape was still legally and socially acceptable in this country; the women still felt violated, even when they thought their husbands had a right to do it.

And while nobody thought to ask Medieval girls who were sold off to strangers years older and forced to have sex with them how they felt about it, we do know what a traumatic effect sex with adults has on young girls now, when they can speak up.


On those grounds, many of us think that scene is unrealistic, that it's a man's fantasy of how it would be, and for that reason (not to mention the details of the scene) we find it offensive. Others may decide the scene is not offensive, and that's their decision to make, but trying to convince those of us who find it repulsive that we shouldn't isn't going to work.

P.S. I don't think the author is a pervert or a pedophile. I just think that scene perpetuates a false attitude toward sex that we could do without.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Re: is George a Pedo?

And (euwww) I find that this discussion has just brought that scene back into my mind much too vividly.

I will depart from this thread.

 

[Koopa]

Re: is George a Pedo?

Personally i am against sex at that age as well, especially considering the age-gap, and i think the entire forum is as well, HOWEVER that is an entirely different discussion. Things like that did and do happen, it did and still does fit perfectly in with the story and so on... i do not feel it was wrong in any way to right about it. As i said it is not a children's book. As for attitude about sex, throughout the books there comes many different sex-situations to the forefront, gay-sex, incest, normal sex, rape, ..... . GRRM does not write about wrong and right attitudes about sex. At best he gives certain character viewpoint about it. It is for the reader himself to decide his feelings about it. Personally i'd never, and i mean never would want to have sex with a member of my family, but that does not mean that there are those out there who do have those feelings for there family. personnaly i think he does that really well.

I wonder if you're real name is Teresa, cause it seems to fit perfectly with you .