Martin, Sexuality and Age (Formerly, 'Is George...?')

[viZion]

Re: is George a Pedo?

It's rape if you believe that sex between an adult and a girl her age is inherently an act of rape. If you think that he shouldn't have been having foreplay with her in the first place. And it's no use saying it would have been acceptable back then.

Back when? The series is *based* on medieval life. I know it's easy to try to make a direct comparison but you just can't do it. GRRM has created his own world in which, while inspired by the Middle Ages, still has its own rules. This is a world in which teenagers have a much more adult role. They aren't viewed as too young in this world. They are of age. The scene in question is not a rape by that world's definition especially since Dany *wants* it to happen.

I'm not trying to convince you to not find it repulsive. I could care less if you like the series or not but please don't spread misinformation about it by taking scenes completely out of their context. I will say that if you look past the external description of the scene you can find the real point of the scene. It's Dany's first step towards indepence, being free from Viserys, coming into her own as a woman, and starting her journey towards becoming a world ruler. It's these layers of meaning throughout the series that keeps us discussing it all so much.

Honestly, why would someone even be in this forum if they aren't a fan of the series? Is it just to troll us that do like it? I really don't get it.

 

[j d worthington]

Re: is George a Pedo?

Honestly, why would someone even be in this forum if they aren't a fan of the series? Is it just to troll us that do like it? I really don't get it.

Though this has very little to do with GRRM -- and even less to do with the topic (and yes, I find the thread title immensely offensive as well) -- I thought I'd answer this one....

There are several possible reasons. For someone like myself (who is rather indifferent to GRRM) or Teresa, in part because it's our job as moderators to keep an eye on things to see how they're progressing; and when a thread has a title that's almost guaranteed to attract strong reactions, this reason is going to be at least doubled.

For others (and possibly for us, as well), there's the simple fact that people enjoy discussing such things, whether they like a writer or not. Sometimes they're looking to understand why people find that writer's work so compelling; sometimes they're looking to have their mind changed (if possible); sometimes they simply feel they've got something they consider worth contributing to the conversation; or they're playing devil's advocate to get people to think about their own positions on such topics; etc., etc., etc.

As for someone who deliberately begins a thread with on a subject and with a title that is guaranteed to offend... there you may have someone who was him- or herself so offended that they felt they needed to lodge a protest; or because they enjoy stirring up trouble; or they're simply used to this being the tactic used in so many fora that any other approach doesn't even occur to them (this has been the case more than once here).

It isn't healthy (or helpful) for either the writer or his fans for such a forum to simply be a cheering squad. Any writer has room to improve, and those who look to such places on occasion may (once in a great while) find something useful -- if the people contributing to such discussions are honest and thoughtful about what they have to say. Constructive criticism can be a very useful thing for the writer, or for those who enjoy his/her work. In the latter case, it can help the fan to see that writer's work in an entirely new light; or find aspects of it which they'd never considered; and so on. "And so it goes...."

A bit of a lengthy response to your final query, but as it may itself prove helpful in getting some thoughtful (and thought-provoking) discussions going... why not?

 

[Qhorin Halfhand]

Re: is George a Pedo?

Somethings you dont put in the face of readers.

Its a huge weakness and why i didnt like the series. The fact that he has write everything down.

If he had more ability he could wrote that scene so well that it didnt feel like a gimmick. He could make it look horrible without using it to shock.

Ace was right with his diss of GRRM. He is more about killing characters for the thrill,shock then writing a good story.

If his world was an interesting fantasy world i would have stand things better. It was the most clichè medevil fantasy i have seen.

The Starks and the Lannister thing was more soap opera alà Bold and The Beautiful....

I really wonder if your name, Connavar, comes from the David Gemmell Rigante series? Because that series contains a 14 year old nymphomaniac

 

[Culhwch]

Re: is George a Pedo?

At this juncture I just want to remind everyone, because this is such a touchy subject and it has obviously stirred strong emotion in all camps, that this is not a place for an uncivil tongue or personal attacks. Any such behaviour will not be tolerated. But as this discussion has so far been intelligent and diplomatic, I have no fears that it will denigrate into a flame war.

EDIT: Also, a number of posters have expressed concerns over the thread title, so I will amend it to, 'Martin, Sexuality and Age (Formerly, 'Is George...?')'.

 

[Connavar]

Re: is George a Pedo?

But even if such things were common during that era, it would still be unecessary for a writer to describe them in such intimate and prolonged detail. It's there because he thinks it makes the story more interesting.

I agree with Connavar. In this, as on several other points, the author is not basing his story on the real Middle Ages, but on what modern readers think the Middle Ages were like.

Thats what i had problems with.

To use the situation to make the story more interesting. To appeal to what modern people expect of those times.


Its not like the first time i have read this situation used in genre books like this. Mostly the other writers have been clever enough to write in a way it didnt seem like gimmick to appeal to readers....

 

[Werthead]

Re: is George a Pedo?

I really wonder if your name, Connavar, comes from the David Gemmell Rigante series? Because that series contains a 14 year old nymphomaniac

And the rest. Exactly the same criticisms Connavar levels against GRRM could be levelled against Gemmell who has very similar things going on his books. Andromache was having an affair with another woman whilst still a young teenager in The Troy Trilogy for example, as well as that specific plotline you point out. He seems to get a free pass on that, for some reason.

It's also worth mentioning Daeneys' psychological reaction to the situation with Drogo. Dany has lived in the shadow of her brother, an arrogant, bitter, bullying thug who teeters on the edge of madness, who habitually insults and beats Dany, belittles her and blames her for their mother's death. For fourteen years, he has held the power of life and death over Dany and treated her like a commodity to be traded for his own advancement. When Drogo turns out not to be the psychopathic barbarian she was expecting, Dany is able to exert power and influence over Drogo through several areas, including her bravery, her desire to fit in with the Dothraki, but also her sexuality. Gaining dominance in the relationship with Drogo (and Dany clearly has the upper hand in the relationship from early on) also means gaining the upper hand over her brother. Dany also has a hugely ambitious and somewhat arrogant streak in her: she believes she is the answer to Westeros' problems, that she is the only one who cares about the common people and that she would make a better ruler than Viserys (although frankly Dolorous Edd would make a better ruler than Viserys). Jorah Mormont helps build up this latter opinion as well.

So that scene can be seen in a different light: Dany realising that Drogo is her key to first escaping her brother, and then subduing and ultimately eliminating him so she can take the throne of Westeros, and she will do what it takes to achieve that end. And so the duality of her character when compared to Cersei's - one of the most intriguing comparisons in the series - begins.

 

[TK-421]

Yes, Kiwi, some major deja vu here in this thread.

Good night, ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

 

[viZion]

Re: is George a Pedo?

Its not like the first time i have read this situation used in genre books like this. Mostly the other writers have been clever enough to write in a way it didnt seem like gimmick to appeal to readers....

To me it seems like you're saying that anything that could be perceived as shocking to some people must be a gimmick. I've never once felt that anything in the series was a gimmick despite being shocked several times at certain events. As I explained in my last post and Werthead explained a few posts later, there's quite a bit more going on in that scene than just a 13 year old girl having sex with her husband. It's a very important scene. There layers of activity in just about every shocking scene in the series and that's what makes me love it so much.

 

[Tansy]

Re: is George a Pedo?

And the rest. Exactly the same criticisms Connavar levels against GRRM could be levelled against Gemmell who has very similar things going on his books. Andromache was having an affair with another woman whilst still a young teenager in The Troy Trilogy for example, as well as that specific plotline you point out. He seems to get a free pass on that, for some reason.

It's also worth mentioning Daeneys' psychological reaction to the situation with Drogo. Dany has lived in the shadow of her brother, an arrogant, bitter, bullying thug who teeters on the edge of madness, who habitually insults and beats Dany, belittles her and blames her for their mother's death. For fourteen years, he has held the power of life and death over Dany and treated her like a commodity to be traded for his own advancement. When Drogo turns out not to be the psychopathic barbarian she was expecting, Dany is able to exert power and influence over Drogo through several areas, including her bravery, her desire to fit in with the Dothraki, but also her sexuality. Gaining dominance in the relationship with Drogo (and Dany clearly has the upper hand in the relationship from early on) also means gaining the upper hand over her brother. Dany also has a hugely ambitious and somewhat arrogant streak in her: she believes she is the answer to Westeros' problems, that she is the only one who cares about the common people and that she would make a better ruler than Viserys (although frankly Dolorous Edd would make a better ruler than Viserys). Jorah Mormont helps build up this latter opinion as well.

So that scene can be seen in a different light: Dany realising that Drogo is her key to first escaping her brother, and then subduing and ultimately eliminating him so she can take the throne of Westeros, and she will do what it takes to achieve that end. And so the duality of her character when compared to Cersei's - one of the most intriguing comparisons in the series - begins.

Thanks for saving me the trouble of drafting a reply

and with the whole sex at a young age and what constitutes rape. GRRM is writing about a fantasy world, in this world it is customary for girls to classed as adults a lot younger. The rules of this world cannot be compared with the modern day Western (my perspective) sensibilities we have now. However, if you find it distasteful and can't get past it the best thing to do is to not read the books.

I don't think scenes like this are meant to shock in the book, it's just a reflection of the world it takes part in. Just look at the world we live in today and you will see as much evidence of brutality taking place even in so called "civilised" societies as happens in Westeros. I do think it is good that scenes such as these are well written enough to provoke a reaction, allbeit revulsion, as it creates debate and makes the reader question their own beliefs and morality.

I think what you need to keep in mind is that this is a story, set in a made up world with different rules and culture to the one we live in. If you don't like your fantasy gritty and dark then there are plenty other authors out there that write happier, feel good fantasies, where good always triumphs and nothing too nasty ever happens.

 

[Rahl Windsong]

All I can really say about a thread like this is, when you have no concrete evidence about something as horrific as accussing someone of being a pedophile, then please do not go there because such things can go the wrong way and ruin perfectly good people's lives. Just because the man wrote these things into his story is absolutely no proof at all and therefore all you are doing in starting a thread like this is to either troll for repsonses or you are trying deliberately to harm the person's character.

The sex in ASoF ...what Martin attempted to do, in my humble oppinion, is to show us how strong a woman Danny is. How she is able to over come such things even directly in the face of them, as when she turned to love the man that had "raped" her. This shows us that she is, and will be a leader and also someone who does not falter in their own peril. Of course there are other ways Martin could have done this but sex in our society is a topic that always makes people understand the horror of the moment when it is not concensual. So perhaps he did take the easy road to achieve his goals for Danny but I for one see her as one of the leading figures in stopping the Others when that time comes.

Someone who does not falter in the face of their own peril has to be the leader against the Others, Danny is becomming that leader as she overcomes everything Martin throws at her.

Thats the way I saw this issue...

 

[JDP]

All I can really say about a thread like this is, when you have no concrete evidence about something as horrific as accussing someone of being a pedophile, then please do not go there

I've got to agree with Rahl; given that this is just about the vilest accusation you can make against someone, it's entirely inappropriate as a (hopefully) flippant thread title on a public forum. Thanks for changing it, Cul.

 

[Wiggum]

But let's be a bit realistic.

It doesn't take the Middle Ages for someone to have sex at 13.

I lost my virginity at the same age, whilst being a shy boy that ran into a fairly aggresive, and attractive girl of the same age.

If people didn't engage in the activity at that tender period I wouldn't have my mother (Grandma got preggers late in her 13th year of life).

I would be surprised if I'm the only one on this forum that has personal or familial experience along those lines, and at that age.


Is it really the age? Or is it the relationship with Drogo?

Or is it an overflow from the dislike of her brother, and his treatment of her that we tend to put on Drogo in relationship to their relationship?

EDITED TO ADD:

Whilst I did find the consumation of the marriage between Dany and Drogo unsavory, I don't think you can judge their relationship by that one night, and if someone is going to judge Martin's intentions by their relationship you have to look at the whole thing.

Dany and Drogo made one of the most compelling romantic pairings in the books, and an interesting, happy and strong couple.

 

[Connavar]

Re: is George a Pedo?

And the rest. Exactly the same criticisms Connavar levels against GRRM could be levelled against Gemmell who has very similar things going on his books. Andromache was having an affair with another woman whilst still a young teenager in The Troy Trilogy for example, as well as that specific plotline you point out. He seems to get a free pass on that, for some reason.

It's also worth mentioning Daeneys' psychological reaction to the situation with Drogo. Dany has lived in the shadow of her brother, an arrogant, bitter, bullying thug who teeters on the edge of madness, who habitually insults and beats Dany, belittles her and blames her for their mother's death. For fourteen years, he has held the power of life and death over Dany and treated her like a commodity to be traded for his own advancement. When Drogo turns out not to be the psychopathic barbarian she was expecting, Dany is able to exert power and influence over Drogo through several areas, including her bravery, her desire to fit in with the Dothraki, but also her sexuality. Gaining dominance in the relationship with Drogo (and Dany clearly has the upper hand in the relationship from early on) also means gaining the upper hand over her brother. Dany also has a hugely ambitious and somewhat arrogant streak in her: she believes she is the answer to Westeros' problems, that she is the only one who cares about the common people and that she would make a better ruler than Viserys (although frankly Dolorous Edd would make a better ruler than Viserys). Jorah Mormont helps build up this latter opinion as well.

So that scene can be seen in a different light: Dany realising that Drogo is her key to first escaping her brother, and then subduing and ultimately eliminating him so she can take the throne of Westeros, and she will do what it takes to achieve that end. And so the duality of her character when compared to Cersei's - one of the most intriguing comparisons in the series - begins.

I havent read Troy so i cant talk about it.

In Rigante it was difference the young nymp he is talking about was cheating with another boy of her age. She was free to choose to have sex with who she wanted, she wasnt sold to a much older man.

With Dany it was cause how she was sold like she was nothing by her brother to a man like that and the sex scene. It was how she felt and not only the age,sex thing. I was talking about only up to that point of her story.



Scalem X

You can read in books you couldnt get in thread that i only forced to read more of the book cause my brother loves the series. Usually we have the same taste in books except in Epic fantasy.

 

[Wiggum]

Re: is George a Pedo?

With Dany it was cause how she was sold like she was nothing by her brother to a man like that and the sex scene. It was how she felt and not only the age,sex thing. I was talking about only up to that point of her story.

And this is what I brought up in my post above.

A lot of the feelings towards the consumation of Dany and Drogo have a lot to do with her brother, and how he dealt with her as a piece of chattel.

 

[Eulalia]

Yes indeed, Wiggum! It is strange how society seem to have amnesia about that.

Its also true that in our society young teens are not really mature enough to make good decisions, handle their emotions, choose a good partner, support themselves or have children, even if they can physically have sex. And then, some of us have a long academic apprenticeship ahead. We also value marriage for love. Having this taboo is sensible for us. Some of those issues were different in the middle ages, especially depending on class. And in a fantasy book, the rules are different again.

Getting one's knickers in a bunch over this stuff in a fantasy book, and acting as if a writer experiences everything he writes about, seems silly. If the writer is good, as GRRM is, then sexual experience will have an impact or future character development and choices.

I've heard Richard Adams was into rabbits...shocking!(LOL)!

 

[TK-421]

And Lord knows what Goodkind would be into....chickens maybe

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Not to be trite....but this is singly the worst thread Ive ever read on this forum. Words escape me.

Enjoy

 

[TK-421]

Egg!!!!! We missed you around these parts lately but of course you did not miss the target with your assessment. I have not bothered to read most of it as the title just put me off. Wonder what GRRM would think of such a thread.

You're back stateside. Good for you.

 

[Eulalia]

Who knows? GRRM seems like he would be an earthy pretty normal guy, a man of the world, not easily shocked, and able to defend himself. He uses...the sarcasm!

I liked how he made two of the truly creepy guys like Joffrey and Viserys, into obviously despicable characters and bumped them off pretty fast.

Sansa, Margaery and Arya are still maids, against all odds. Tyrion being gentlemanly about Sansa's tender state.

I think making bands of soldiers, who swear drink and whore is pretty much realism!

Anyway thanks to GRRM for the bravery in giving us varied complicated delightful and complete characters, no matter if he is going to shock the young or the naive sometimes. And attract wrath from certain elements.

To him I would say, love your books, of course.

 

[Boaz]

Eulalia, You make in interesting comparison between Dany and Sansa and therefore by extension a comparison between Drogo and Tyrion.

Despite Dany's young age, her wedding was real. Any ruler's marriage will have (should have) a high degree of political weight behind it and Drogo's marriage to the last of the Targaryens was no exception. Dany brought Valyrian blood (this is probably more important than we know), a royal background, a claim to the Seven Kingdoms, and a very martial heritage to her husband. I get the feeling that the Dothraki have a rich oral tradition, but that the details of dynastic legitimacy are lost upon them. Drogo accurately chose Dany to provide this for his son... The Stallion That Mounts The World.

Anyway, it was a real marriage in my opinion. Drogo provided Dany with protection and freedom while she gave prestige to his son. They were also attracted to each other. Even though Dany would never have chosen Drogo at her age, she commited herself to the marriage.

In contrast, Tyrion's marriage to Sansa was a sham. They both knew it and so did the entire court. Sansa had been betrayed, beaten, shamed, and threatened continuously by the family of her groom. By comparison, Dany's torture came from her own family... Drogo was her escape. There was no escape for Sansa, the marriage only trapped her further.

As Dontos told Sansa, the Lannisters only wanted her claim. She was as doomed as Edmure Tully. As soon as she produced a son, the Lannisters would kill her.

On the other hand, Tyrion is the one Lannister (at least before Jaime's maiming) who desires a normal life, a loving wife, and a happy little family. He tried to be gentle and patient with Sansa... he never forced himself upon her. Yet she could never forgive or trust him as a Lannister. Sandor, Joffrey, and Cersei mistreated her in all sorts of ways, so she never commited herself to the marriage. She ran at the first opportunity... not that I blame her at all.

I seem to recall Martin once remarking that Tyrion, of the characters in ASOIAF, is most like him. His mind is his weapon. If you show him a kindness, he's extremely loyal. People dismiss him at first because he's not physically impressive. He's very imaginative. Etc. If Tyrion is a dim reflection of Martin (and I know we can take comparisons, metaphors, allegories too far) and since Tyrion never consumated his marriage with Sansa, then can we not assume that Martin is also a gentle man with the best interests for children in his heart?

By the way, what ever happened to the person who started this thread? I don't think he's posted again on this subject.