Martin, Sexuality and Age (Formerly, 'Is George...?')

[Eulalia]

Boaz, thanks for your analysis! Yes, I think you have great points about what can (perhaps) be inferred from the Tyrion character. I suspect GRRM to be guilty of being loyal, gentle, compassion to children, and wanting a relationship in which he is loved for himself (well some guys don't care), as you put so well.

I think Tryion maybe carries out his passions, maybe farther than people would, but the feelings are all understandable, and in a nasty age. (Tysha, Tywin, Shae) Good thing it's a fantasy!

I think GRRM has a good point of view of who is screwing up morally or who is ambiguous and nobody seems off the hook.

Even Jaime, had the cajones to bump off Aerys (evil beyond just about anyone else in the book), and now he's a very cynical kingslayer and oathbreaker.

Is there is a better thread for relationship, or ethics discussion so we can dump the sensational entry?!

 

[Rainswept]

I just want to throw in my two cents by saying that I applaud the sexuality in ASoIF. I'm a big fan of fantasy, but I find precious little of it written for (mature) adults. A large portion of fantasy books are very very prudish.

Sex is a part of life, and sex with girls barely old enough to menstruate was at one time an extremely common practice. Remember that in the dark ages people were lucky to live past 35, if they waited till they were mature, well rounded adults before they started having kids, they would not have lived long enough to raise them!

I think the sex not only adds to the realism of the story, it adds worlds of depth and believability to the characters. Another author I love supposedly once said "If you want me to tell you about a person's character, show me who they are sleeping with" and I find that to be true in spades in ASoIF, as well as the already mentioned great insights you get into the characters by being inside their heads after sex.

Plus, it's fun to read!

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Margaery...is [sic]... still maids, against all odds.

I don't know if I would go so far as to make such a claim as that...

Anyway, so this thread is extremely interesting. However, one viewpoint I have not seen espoused, and which I feel as if is my place to do so, being a debauched libertine myself, is this: maybe she liked it.

I'm not condoning that kind of forced intimacy, age difference or no. But to be honest, she is a becoming a young woman. At that age everyone feels the first blush of desire. I can't fathom her motivation that first night, but is told later that she enjoys her role as Khaleesi, the marriage bed included.

Earlier Teresa raised an interesting point. That being the inherent and manifest wrongness in such an act between an adult and someone I cannot truly call somewhat other than a child despite her swiftly blossoming womanhood. I have a question for you in response. Would you say the same if the youth was a boy? How would you view a situation in which the youth sought out the adult? I don't say these things to cause discord but to raise the question of is this something we can call an absolute? If it is, then was Dany's complicity in it count for nothing? Does it lessen the crime or not? Is Drogo's sin against Dany or all women? I am loathe to call her a child, she is not. But neither is she a woman.

I don't think Dany should have gone through that ordeal. Any of it. But she did, and who knows how things would have turned out. In other words, to attempt to sum up a response that has become a derailment of epic proportions and in multiple directions, is that something you can't live with and move on despite? I think there are worse things that can happen to someone.

 

[daisybee]

I am quite surprised by the varying degrees of reaction in this thread.

I read the scene, felt extremely uncomfortable doing so, and remember thinking, tricky topic for a man. Our imaginations only go so far, and I think the scene suffered for it.

That is a personal opinion.

I think GRRM is a great writer, but am perfectly within my rights, as anyone else to not enjoy every single sentence or scene the man commits to paper.

The world he evokes may be heavily influenced by a historical period we can all recognise in part, but it is his world, a fantasy world, so I don't really think saying "well we all know it happened so what's the issue" is really relevant.

All I'll say is, there is a reason that it is illegal now- so the fact that the thread has devolved into the maturity of Dany (still a fictional character folks!) and the differing interpretations of the scene as rape etc, actually fascinates me. For quite a few people, a 13 year old in fiction is still 13.

I know twelve year olds in real life who have had to deal with a lot, and have grown in maturity far quicker as a result. Girls can menstruate from as early as ten or eleven, but that still does not make them ready for sex.

The guilt and shame children carry as a result of such abuse, is a complicated thing; girls and boys in their very early teens can have a physical response to an act committed upon them, which is why so many victims blame themselves, take responsibility for the abuse, are so easily convinced at times that THEY wanted it to happen.

Despite this thread being about a fictional characters response/feelings, I felt I had to say that, because much has been said of Drogo's gentleness, her "complicitness".

Please. The story is what it is, and a child was given to an older man for him to use as he saw fit. It ended up being a "match" but still. Dude could have waited, couldn't he?

Actually, not a lot worse can happen to someone.

Peace.

 

[Qhorin Halfhand]

Re: is George a Pedo?

I havent read Troy so i cant talk about it.

In Rigante it was difference the young nymp he is talking about was cheating with another boy of her age. She was free to choose to have sex with who she wanted, she wasnt sold to a much older man.

You're wrong, actually. The character in question stopped random men on the road, the first being a man much older than her who took advantage of her fright, had sex with her and then paid her off. She did it scores of times with men who were well past middle age and each time she was paid. At least five times, is my recollection of the amount of times she had to abort her pregnancies and still she couldn't stop because the author provided her with an uncontrollable NEED for sex (ie nymphomania, I wasn't just being colourful when I used that word). In the end when Connavar is mauled by the bear, she marries someone who was already legally an adult, I believe somewhere in his early 20s. Obviously this is not something countenanced by today's society.

So thats...paedophilia, underage prostitution, abortion, nymphomania. The sword of truth series also contains all sorts of sexual information, and I am sure I could think of others.

I am not levelling this as an attack, I am just trying to put perspective on the issue at hand. Lots of fantasy series deal with issues of sex, rape, they blur lines of conventially accepted ages of adulthood and so on but once they have been raised and the effect of shocking the reader has occurred, they're often not dealt with leaving the reader with little insight into the effects of such events on the character's lives. In the specific example of the Rigante series, the character's motivation is explained (her younger sister's death) but no real resolution is effected. Her life continues as it is into adulthood.

Martin includes the same themes but writing them realistically make them a part of the story and a realistic development in the personality of the characters. Dany's relationship with Drogo, while shocking considering their ages, is dealt with quite deeply showing the emotions and effects on the individual involved. Similarly with Tyrion, the vivid remembrances of watching a room full of soldiers have their way with his wife isn't just referenced while skimping on the details. We get a clearer picture of the exact events and we understand the emotional torment that Tyrion receives from it.

Ultimately, writing about things like this realistically and in depth isn't indicative of some kind of sickness on the author's part, but on the author's desire to realistically represent the fact that life isn't rosy. Characters, like all human beings real or imagined, go through things which aren't always nice and within the realm of modern morals. These things, for better or worse, are part of those peoples lives and the effects they have can be seen in ASOIAF.

I'm coming off slightly fanboyish and I am not intending to make it sound like Martin is a genius author where everyone falls short, but consider for a moment why a lot of authors and a lot of readers consider it necessary to close their eyes to the realities of things like sex and its effect on people, the consideration of which could actually be of benefit to a lot of people, while still happy to include or tolerate the CONCEPTS of sex in a lot of fiction as long as its all hands-off, don't ask don't tell. And why we're so happy to countenance violence in our fiction that its never even raised as a small issue. Are our priorities really that messed up?

 

[Koopa]

I am quite surprised by the varying degrees of reaction in this thread.

I read the scene, felt extremely uncomfortable doing so, and remember thinking, tricky topic for a man. Our imaginations only go so far, and I think the scene suffered for it.

That is a personal opinion.

I think GRRM is a great writer, but am perfectly within my rights, as anyone else to not enjoy every single sentence or scene the man commits to paper.

The world he evokes may be heavily influenced by a historical period we can all recognise in part, but it is his world, a fantasy world, so I don't really think saying "well we all know it happened so what's the issue" is really relevant.

All I'll say is, there is a reason that it is illegal now- so the fact that the thread has devolved into the maturity of Dany (still a fictional character folks!) and the differing interpretations of the scene as rape etc, actually fascinates me. For quite a few people, a 13 year old in fiction is still 13.

I know twelve year olds in real life who have had to deal with a lot, and have grown in maturity far quicker as a result. Girls can menstruate from as early as ten or eleven, but that still does not make them ready for sex.

The guilt and shame children carry as a result of such abuse, is a complicated thing; girls and boys in their very early teens can have a physical response to an act committed upon them, which is why so many victims blame themselves, take responsibility for the abuse, are so easily convinced at times that THEY wanted it to happen.

Despite this thread being about a fictional characters response/feelings, I felt I had to say that, because much has been said of Drogo's gentleness, her "complicitness".

Please. The story is what it is, and a child was given to an older man for him to use as he saw fit. It ended up being a "match" but still. Dude could have waited, couldn't he?

Actually, not a lot worse can happen to someone.

Peace.

Girls can menstruate that early nowadays, this was not the case in the past.(exceptions excluded). Nowadays girls menstruate earlier and earlier, in the middle ages they menstruated at an older age. Given the fact of a different society, there is indeed a huge difference between having sex at 14 now and having sex at 14 then. I'd like to add that lots of girld nowadays lose their virginity ate the age of 15-16.

Also i somewhat agree with the fact that despite Dany eventually saying yes, Drogo did not give her much of a choice. Therefore bordering on rape or being rape altogether. That said i still belive that it was written for a clear purpose (and with that i mean essential for the character, not for some murky purpose.) Therefore i find nothing wrong with the writing and reading of that scene. It has nothing to do with someone being a pedophile. Also and whilst this is not the case here, the best way to show the wrongness of something is not by making it a taboo, but by disccusing it, by going it to it. It is an entire different thing to hearing an offcomment about lets say discrimination of women in certain countries, violence in africa, ... and seeing actual footage of it, hearing/reading detailed facts of it, and the feelings that came with it. This has a more profound affect on people. It will make them want to change things for the better and so on.

 

[daisybee]

I have not, nor would I, make any such allegations about an author simply because a scene or situation he writes is disturbing to me.

I also believe the scene is an important one for Dany, as a character, I would just say that my views on why it is so important possibly differ to others.

Negative experiences make a person stronger, far more so than positive ones, and I guess its for a reader to decide which category they feel the situation falls into.

 

[Qhorin Halfhand]

I have not, nor would I, make any such allegations about an author simply because a scene or situation he writes is disturbing to me.

I also believe the scene is an important one for Dany, as a character, I would just say that my views on why it is so important possibly differ to others.

Negative experiences make a person stronger, far more so than positive ones, and I guess its for a reader to decide which category they feel the situation falls into.

For me, I would view it as both. She feels the powerlessness and shame of being sold like a piece of livestock and being utterly at the whim of someone she barely understands, but at the same time she grows from a girl to a woman when Drogo shows her love and respect, and she ultimately gains a lot of confidence from his holding her in high regard and that confidence persists beyond his death, as well as her distaste of slavery of any kind.

 

[Koopa]

Negative experience makes a person stronger then negative ones?

I wouldn't say so. Just because there are cases when good comes from it, more often the opposite its the case, that negative experiences weaken a person. Whilst postive ones strengten their beliefs, and allows them to move forward with confidence.

 

[Tansy]

I think it makes it easier to deal with negative things and strengthens that ability, a person who has overcome bad ordeals is more likely not to break when something bad happens, whereas someone who has only had good things happen to them might not be able to pull themselves together as quickly

I think it is more how you deal with things that strengthens character and makes you more resolute, I think it also allows you to apportion blame better, you know everthing isn't your fault but are willing to take responsibility for those things you have responsibility for and let go of teh things you couldn't possibly have changed.

 

[Koopa]

Well, i am inclined to go into the debate, but i won't seeing as it is obvious that every case is different. That said basic psychology dictates that positive experience are usually better for a person's growth then negative experiences. that is why in school you always applaud children when they did something well, whenever they made a good drawing, gave a right answer ad so on, instead of dwelling on the negative you build from the positive. Whereas negative experiences will bring a person down, will limit his desires do try out new things and so on.

That is if i remember the little psychology i once had to learn correctly, wich in itself is a liability.
(As of now i am no longer going in the debate )

 

[Tansy]

Well given the choice would rather have positive experiences

I also think it depends on the individual as to how they cope - that's me out as well

 

[Rainswept]

That said basic psychology dictates that positive experience are usually better for a person's growth then negative experiences.

With all this talk of sex and horrible experiences, I'd like to point out that I believe the incredibly strong taboo our society hangs on sex-crimes ultimately damages the victims nearly as much as it does the perpetrators.

Note that in ASoIF, sexuality and experiences, while important, aren't what stick with and damage/alter the personas and minds of the characters. Take Dany for instance, it wasn't sex at 13 that bothered her, it was being sold and the fate of her brother. That felt realistic to me because sex just wasn't that big a deal back then like it is now.

To a certain extent, we place psychological emphasis on things that we're told are important. We run a risk of taking experiences that young victims might normally be able to take in stride and turn them into life-altering calamities.

None of the sex in this book warrants nearly this much attention and discussion (IMO). I was FAR more disgusted with Joffrey having the Kingsguard beat Sansa that I was any of the sexuality.

 

[Koopa]

Arent the victims a lot more damaged then the perpetrators?
(Usually that is).

One of the reasons of that i think that death is a lot nearer for them then it is for us.

 

[TK-421]

As someone pointed out, Dany's experience has made her what she is now in the series. Her character needed to go through such experiences to become the ruler she espouses being. That Iron Throne is pretty prickly. I got the impression that she would do it over again and really mourns Drogo. He will be the love of life.

 

[Tansy]

I think Rainswept was referring to the social guilt and shame aspect of being a victim of sexual crime, because of the way it is perceived in society the innocent party feels the burden of the shame/stigma more so than the perpetrator

 

[Rainswept]

I think Rainswept was referring to the social guilt and shame aspect of being a victim of sexual crime, because of the way it is perceived in society the innocent party feels the burden of the shame/stigma more so than the perpetrator

Maybe not more so, but a lot, and certainly without deserving. Ever seen a little kid fall down, then get up fine, but then start crying hysterically whenever mom comes rushing over freaking out?

 

[Tansy]

I guess in the world of ASOFAI rape is just something that women have to put up with and the stigma we have today isn't associated with it. Villages get raided, wars happen, women are raped and if they are lucky they live and get on with things... end of.

 

[Koopa]

And what i meant was that the perpetrators usually dont feel any regret/pain/shame/damage from raping someone. Unless of course they are caught, then they hate the punishment, but even then some dont regret the action at all. You could argue that the rapists in question are damaged goods, damaged enough to actually rape anyone. But thats already stepping over to a whole other dimension of the human psyque no?

 

[Rainswept]

And what i meant was that the perpetrators usually dont feel any regret/pain/shame/damage from raping someone. Unless of course they are caught, then they hate the punishment, but even then some dont regret the action at all. You could argue that the rapists in question are damaged goods, damaged enough to actually rape anyone. But thats already stepping over to a whole other dimension of the human psyque no?

I imagine they regret having the label if not the act. You're right in that the victim sufferers tremendously. I'm just glad I've never been on either end of this issue.