A new ADWD sample chapter is up

[Werthead]

I don't know that the Boltons need to ride very far to go to war. They've got Stannis to the north, Asha to the west, Euron's forces to the south, and they're surrounded by Stark loyalists. But with winter coming on, I think the immediate concerns are to control the Neck and to gain control of White Harbor. The Ironborn don't want to try and conquer the North during Winter and Stannis won't leave his destiny on the Wall.

I got the distinct impression that they were 100% riding to Moat Cailin. Ramsay says they're going to collect his bride, 'Fake Arya', who's with the Bolton host south of Moat Cailin. Ramsay needs to take it from the north (where it is vulnerable) to allow his father to link up with him.

Wert, thanks. I'd forgotten the Varamyr prologue... it seems that he'll be the first prologue/epilogue character not to die... he's already died once or even twice.

Funny you should say that:

BIG SPOILER

Varamyr gets killed by the Others whilst recovering in a hut from his ASoS wounds, so he wargs into his wolf...which then gets killed by the Others standing outside. So he does appear to be dead for good, but I'm not ruling out a twist here.

 

[Wiggum]

What's better six skins or nine lives?

 

[Boaz]

Just reread the Reek chapter and I had a thought or two to share.

We've discussed in a number of threads how brutish and horrendous life can be in Westeros. Many of the crimes committed were out of passion or done on the spur of the moment... many were not. Ramsay's torture of Theon is of the latter variety. Ramsay is a sadist, pure and simple. He is physically destroying Theon, but that's only the means to an end. The absolute warping of Theon's psyche and personality is Ramsay's goal. He's evil. This chapter was engrossing, but sickening.

Another thought regarded the involvement of the Freys. Big and Little Walder are at the Dreadfort. They signify the alliance between Houses Frey and Bolton. Both houses were sworn bannermen to the greater houses of Tully and Stark, respectively. For their part in the destruction of House Stark, House Bolton received lordship of the North... all they had to do was stab Robb and destroy Winterfell (which has been neatly blamed on House Greyjoy). But the Freys did not receive lordship of the Riverlands, no, no, no. Littlefinger holds the title Lord Paramount of the Trident. So even though the Freys took all the blame for the Red Wedding, a devastating blow to their honor and prestige, they have not risen at all in station. Mayhaps Tywin was going to reverse this, but he's dead and Cersei has not seen fit to adequately reward Lord Walder. I mean, Walder's son, Emmon got Riverrun, but he's not inheriting the Tully mantle of rule.

 

[Eulalia]

It looks like there is going to be a new winner for most hated character, soon. Ramsay goes way beyond Joffrey. Jeyne Poole is not going to have an easy time, either.

The Uncat is still Frey hunting. Walder had better watch it. To be true to life, though, it would be Older Frey as the one who dies, via the horse and cart, or to die peacefully in his sleep right before his deeds catch up with him.

One trick the Romans used to do (and is still done to this day), would be to put a large bounty on his head. Sooner or later on of his sons may try something. But aren't most of the money guys on Walder's side? I get muddled as to who is on whose side, at this point.

Roose is flying pretty high now.

 

[Boaz]

As soon as Jeyne whelps a son, she's dead.

 

[Young stormlord]

I do feel bad for him. Not even the Seven Hells could be as cruel as a sentence in the Dreadfort dungeons.

The Seven Hells are from South, the land of weak and fat people. You are damn right that the northern hell is different. And it's name is Dreadfort for a reason.

Also, do you think that Theon's fingers and toes are going to magically grow back again or he is damned to be ugly for the rest of his life?

 

[Ghost of Harrenhal]

The Seven Hells are from South, the land of weak and fat people. You are damn right that the northern hell is different. And it's name is Dreadfort for a reason.

Also, do you think that Theon's fingers and toes are going to magically grow back again or he is damned to be ugly for the rest of his life?

Was that a sarcastic comment? I don't think Theon's fingers and toes will grow back... I don't think Jaime's hand will grow back either. Both are doomed to spend the rest of their lives (probably short ones by George's standards) as a withered shell and a cripple.

 

[Kalhaven]

Was that a sarcastic comment? I don't think Theon's fingers and toes will grow back... I don't think Jaime's hand will grow back either. Both are doomed to spend the rest of their lives (probably short ones by George's standards) as a withered shell and a cripple.

I think Jaime will grow to be a respectable swordsman again with his left hand. Maybe no where near where he was with his right, but with all of his practicing with the mute Payne I think he will be decent again.

Theon will never again be the same.

 

[Wiggum]

We've discussed in a number of threads how brutish and horrendous life can be in Westeros. Many of the crimes committed were out of passion or done on the spur of the moment... many were not. Ramsay's torture of Theon is of the latter variety. Ramsay is a sadist, pure and simple. He is physically destroying Theon, but that's only the means to an end. The absolute warping of Theon's psyche and personality is Ramsay's goal. He's evil. This chapter was engrossing, but sickening.

It was extreme, but Bolton was trying to break the will of Iron Born royalty.

Just a guess, but I don't think he did it well enough.

 

[khankill]

Theon doesn't even know his name at this point. It is going to take some doing to break his mind free of the grip Ramsay has on it (though I believe he will be a hero at some point). At this point he would agree that Cersei Lannister is Arya Stark.

 

[Boaz]

khan, I beg to differ. I do not think Theon will be a hero before the end. He may become twisted and warped... something along the lines of Smeagol, or better yet Grima. In Tolkien's writing, those two were thoroughly whipped and abused until they changed personalities entirely. In the end they were called Gollum and Worm, respectively.

Grima did not start out as a murderer, no he started with a desire to take over the rule of Edoras, like Theon wanted to rule Winterfell. Grima found himself in too deep with too few men. He soon found himself as Saruman's prisoner. I imagine Saruman manipulated Grima's psyche just for fun. By the time these two reached the Shire, Saruman/Sharkey allowed/commanded Grima to murder and possibly cannibalize Lotho Sackville-Baggins. How much torture and abuse must a person suffer to be forced into becoming a cannibal? Enough to also accept the name and title of Worm, I'd guess.

Worm never ended up as a hero. True, he did kill Saruman. But it was not done to save the Shire... it was done out of vengeance. He killed Saruman against the express command and wishes of Frodo.

Anyway, I don't see Theon/Reek ever regaining enough perspective to be a hero. If he assists the Starks in any way, it will only be to achieve his own ends.

 

[Eulalia]

I think there are a lot of potential directions for Theon. In the end, it depends on what GRRM needs for his story, and what the character "demands". He does need a POV character, that has some access to what is going on in this arena, and a tame Theon, trusted by Ramsay is a great way to do it.

I'm not sure, like Wiggum, that Theon is quite tame enough for the torture to hold, he is Ironborn afterall. His weakness as a morally flexible person who is neither fish nor fowl may help him through.

He could go "Gollum" even more, and be further degraded, if the torture is maintained. Or if he guards someone like Jeyne, and she is kind to him...things could happen.

Could he take out Ramsay? Maybe find a way to evolve up now that he has been "reborn"?

Or he may just take his abuse out on other people, and be a full "Reek".

 

[khankill]

Me too. He's had to learn to be conciliatory in all things. He's never been trusted. He's never been taught the ways of the Ironborn. But he never had any spine or character. Did anyone force him to seduce the captain's daughter? Did anyone force him to attempt to seduce his own sister? Did anyone force him to attack Winterfell? Did anyone force him to execute scores of Stark servants and peasants?

For me, Theon falls into the same category as Viserys and Joffrey... mean spirited, petty, spiteful, arrogant, privileged, foolish, vindictive boys who never matured into men. You've heard the saying, Male by birth, man by choice. Well, these three never heard it or nor would ever understood it. They define immaturity.

You could just have easily put in the name Robert Baratheon. Theons actions are no worse than Roberts and he was a king revered by many, but not all, of his subjects.

As for turning on the Starks in favor of his family; Hmmmm…. Let me think who else would do such a thing, Jaime Lannister! Only he killed a king he was sworn to protect! And DID his own sister! If memory serves from reading many of your other posts He is number 1 or 2 on your list of favorite characters (I admit that is the same for me).

I agree with you that Theon has never matured into a man, he believed that things would just be handed to him on a silver platter due to his parentage. That he needed only to wish for it and it would be so. A very childish view. However, You seem to paint him as unredeemable. After 75 pages we all hated Jaime’s guts! Now he is one of our Favorites. There is still time for poor Theon/Reek to be redeemed.

Added: Although he may very well be an accidental hero in the line of a Smeagol.

 

[Eulalia]

How about a strained analogy!

Theon seems like a "utility" player. He is a flexible guy who could play a lot of roles. Including some future plan with the Ironborn.

Jaime is a short stop. Tyrion is a catcher. Cersei is a starting pitcher. Dany is a closer. Sandor is a DH. Littlefinger is a manager. Ummmm...

 

[Koopa]

The toes are not that big of a problem, you can't see feet with shoes on, the fingers aint that big a deal either if he can still use his bow, hold a sword, the ironborn practice the fingerdance after all. What is gonna be the biggest deal for Theon to overcome when it comes to pure looks are his broken teeth.

 

[khankill]

What is gonna be the biggest deal for Theon to overcome when it comes to pure looks are his broken teeth.

This rough look may actually help endear him to the Ironborn

 

[Wiggum]

Hard to walk in a straight line without your big toes

 

[Boaz]

khan, I agree that Robert was very, very, very immature. He was petty and vindictive. He beat his wife... and merely called it "unkingly."

As for Jaime being one of my top two faves, you're absolutely correct. He's a bad guy, too.

Did you guys ever read or see Henry IV, Part One? In this Shakespearean classic, Prince Hal (the future Henry V) is an indolent disgrace. His father is ashamed of his riotous behavior and his lowlife friends. Yet Hal claims that he's actually a great man just waiting for an epic circumstance to reveal his true character. Hal then gets his wish when a rebellion arises. Hal raises an army and defeats Hotspur, the rebel leader, in personal combat. Then King Henry and all of his nobles applaud Hal as a magnificent hero and a shining example of princely actions.

I think that's a load of crap. It's called one of Shakespeare's historical plays, but Hal's character reads like pure generic contemporary fantasy.

Tolkien's depictions of Boromir and Sam in his classic fantasy, The Lord of the Rings, are much more real than Shakespeare's history. Take Boromir... he is the Prince Hal of Middle-earth, well almost. Boromir is a successful general and leader before he joins Frodo. He had the best education and military training. But Boromir lives for the struggle of epic proportions. The tedium of daily routines bores him to death. Thus he is unable to fight daily against the small gnawing of doubt and uncertainty in his heart. He's waiting for the big battle, but fails to prepare his heart and mind daily for the unseen attacks of the Ring. Boromir succumbs to the unseen foe.

On the other hand, Sam was never prepared nor trained for the battlefield. Sam was educated in daily picking weeds. He was willing to do the small, menial, and tedious daily tasks that led to victory. In the end, he proved a more fit companion for Frodo than did Boromir. Sam was able to daily resist the invisible force of the Ring.

Boromir failed long before the big moment came around. Sam made it to his big moment because he constantly prepared through the little moments.

They say that trials do not shape a man's character, they reveal it.

As long as circumstances were good for Robert Baratheon, he was magnanimous. When circumstances went against him, he was mean, hateful, and excessively violent.

Viserys and Joffrey were not even really magnanimous when things went their way. They were still spiteful and cruel in the best of times. I think Theon lines up closer to Viserys and Joffrey than with Robert.

Both Viserys and Joffrey died without admitting their sins. Neither made any attempt at atonement. Robert confessed his crimes to Ned, but made no attempt at atonement. Jaime is coming around. He's starting to try and make up for his crimes... this is truly a Herculean task ahead of him. In the future, Theon may indeed desire to find reconciliation with those he's wronged, but he may run out of time like Viserys, Joffrey, and Robert. I see Theon, in this chapter to be broken in body and cowed in spirit, but not yet broken enough to repent of his evil deeds. I find it interesting that of these bad guys we've mentioned that only Jaime is trying to daily practice at winning the small unseen battles of the soul. There's still time and probably room for Theon to change, but he's not yet broken enough to change in the ways he needs to change... and that is scary.

Along these lines, I think that Jon, Sam, Doran, Barristan, and, to some degree, Petyr all fight the daily battles in their hearts and minds. Don't get me wrong, Petyr is still a nasty piece of work, but he tries to daily make himself master of his emotions and actions... even if his intentions are evil.

Edit:

Hard to walk in a straight line without your big toes

Ooooh, do tell...

 

[Koopa]

I meant to get over the ruined look for himself, as for the ironborn i guess you're right.

Wiggum, i dont think his thumbs and/or his big toes are taken. He mentioned the little ones, and the other just as fingers. I think if his most important fingers and toes where taen he would say it, and not randomly say toes, fingers.

Boaz seems to have been reading Tolkien lately, and makes use of it by writing a whole lot explanatory bridges (sue me, for not knowing the correct english word to explain my dutch thoughtpattern, this will have to do.) for making a vague point, probably more easily done otherwise, then again i actually understood what he was trying to point out this time, wich is not always the case.

PS: You may have noticed in my posts, that sometimes letters are missing from a word, thats because i am lazy, my keyboard is old, my english aint perfect, and i often think i have already written/typed it, in dutch i have the same problem, to put it positively i think faster than my actions . Thats not really fast though, i wasn't born a genius. And i aint one now. Where am i going with this again? Oh yeah i was trying to see how far i can get offtopic whilst making it so people on boards would stop complaining about the prettyness of my posts.

 

[Eulalia]

Wow. Thanks Boaz for that excellent post! I love this stuff.

Kiwi, as a (hangs head in shame) uniligual person, I think it is almost magical when people have mastered other languages as well as you have. I enjoy your posts. I have to confess that I have an advanced degree and it has never solved my spelling, deletions, and grammar, even though English is supposedly my native language. If I really push it, I can polish and edit, but its more relaxing to forgive myself for not being good at those things, get into the spirit or the occasion, and hope for charity from others. Also, a lot of people on message forums seem to cope with more casual posts, stylistically. Keyboarding for me is a second language.

Boaz is probably right about Theon not being hero material. He's a surviver, and there isn't much time to develop a conscience, and he should have hit bottom by now. He's maybe closer to the majority of people who may not think much about the morality or consequences of what they do. Yah, if GRRM wants to make more of him, he'd better get on it. I think he is more of an everyman POV character, but he still may play a key piece.

There are so many takes on Shakespeare. But I tell you Boaz, I was in a class in which the profs argued bitterly, (bitterly!) over where or not Hal was likeable. (losing his partying ways and dumping his pals, conquering his emotions) One thought that in deciding to be a good king, Hal lost a lot of his humanity. He was an English hero, so I suppose it is a portrait of a hero as a young man. There is sort of the idea of that in the more recent movie "Elizabeth".

Good rulers in Shakespeare are often not very nice, and the more thoughtful or likeable characters may not make good rulers. Sounds about right?