Valyrian blood

[Raven]

TK-421: now, it's not often I'll say that someone is flat wrong - but I'm afraid you are.

Ned's family was more important than anything to him, even his honour.

And it's important to remember that when we speak of 'honour' being important to Ned, we don't mean his reputation or his standing. We mean his own assessment of himself. When Ned speaks of 'honour' he means being true to what he thinks is right.

That's why I would disagree that Ned is 'prickly' about his honour: Tywin was prickly about his honour, in my reading of that phrase, because he reacted to any implied dishonour - while behaving as dishonourably as anyone, so long as he could disavow responsibility publicly. Ned was never 'prickly' about honour, because he was not sensitive to what others thought of him: he only cared whether he could live with himself.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

^^^

What he said.

Ned's deffinition of "honour" is very different to almost anyone else's in ASOIAF. That's why i think Jon has become more like his father throughout the series. Pre-Qhorin's order to turn his cloak, he was very self conscious of his "*******" status, and all it implied. Since Ygritte's death i think he's come to the realisiation that it's not what other's think of him that count's, but what he think's of himself. For Tywinn Lannister (and Jaime too, for he choked under the yoke of "Kingslayer" before his recent reapraisal of his life) image was everything. That's why tyrion was such an embarasment to him, and why he couldn't see past his deformities. It was his one major weakness.

 

[JohnSnow]

TK-421: now, it's not often I'll say that someone is flat wrong - but I'm afraid you are.

Ned's family was more important than anything to him, even his honour.

And it's important to remember that when we speak of 'honour' being important to Ned, we don't mean his reputation or his standing. We mean his own assessment of himself. When Ned speaks of 'honour' he means being true to what he thinks is right.

That's why I would disagree that Ned is 'prickly' about his honour: Tywin was prickly about his honour, in my reading of that phrase, because he reacted to any implied dishonour - while behaving as dishonourably as anyone, so long as he could disavow responsibility publicly. Ned was never 'prickly' about honour, because he was not sensitive to what others thought of him: he only cared whether he could live with himself.

All right take it easy on poor old TK-421.... well no, you are pretty much right on, blast away! There are few things that we can assume safely set in stone in aSoIaF:
Tyrion is ugly
Joffrey was evil
Samwell is a coward
Ned Stark is more honorable than any other single character in the series.

Whe it comes to his friends he would do anything, even things he does not want to do. Yet when it comes to his family he sets no limits on what he would do for them. I have no doubts that when the series is done we find out Ned made some sacrifice for a member of his family.

That is what makes the whole R+L=jon snow theory sound.

later,

snow

 

[aemon]

well i was rereading the first book last night and i had the r+l jon snow theory in my mind and it actually points to it quite abit, but then again it could all just be a pile of pish. it could lean either way very easily.

 

[TK-421]

Holy $%#^!!! I didn't think you all were so "prickly" about the subject of Ned. I myself do not hold him on a pedestial and do not consider him the most honourable in the series. That does not mean he was not a good man.

Yes, he was "honourable" and not in the same way as Tywin, but he was honourable to a fault. Was really his family the number one thing in his life? If it had been, he would of refused Robert when the Hand job (no pun intended..) was offered. Catelyn wanted him to stay out of the politics of the Court but knew that he had little choice but choice he did have after all he did for Robert: gave him the Iron Throne and led the charge against Balon's rebellion. And yes, he did treat Jon as a member of his household (although he never told Cat to stop treating him like sh%&) but he also did this more for his sister and her and the Stark's honour than anything else (so the theory goes).

So, before you all come down on a poor simple little Canuck like myself, I only mean to say that Ned's honour was not necessarily his greatest attribute but his greatest weakness. When you play the game of thrones...He still a great guy and I would of probably followed his as well.

 

[Raven]

TK-421: hey, that wasn't hard! I mean, being wrong is something I have some experience with myself.

However, Ned's motiviations in taking the Hand's job (careful )
were IMO not honour, but family. He takes it because his family
is under threat.

At first he believes it best for his family for him to stay in WF, where he believes is his rightful place to be. It's only when Cat makes him see the possible consequences for his family of refusing that he changes his mind. (That and his love for Jon Arryn and Robert, his foster family.) Honour doesn't enter into it as far as I can see.

Was Ned's honour a fault? Possibly. It makes him give Cersei a chance, for example, against what is perhaps his better judgement. It's both a strength and a weakness, like LF's cleverness or Tywin's ruthless self-discipline or Robert's passion. Such is life.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

To TK-421:

 

[TK-421]

Now that was constructive happy tree...

I do not think there is right or wrong in this debate. Just a matter of perspective. Must of hit the nail pretty close to the mark if so many are ready to jump at the least suggestion that Ned's honour wasn't all that.

Now, I taunt you a second time, you silly English kiniggits...

Ned was a good character. The kind of guy you want on your side because he'll do all the dirty work but he's no good at the game of thrones and that was because his honour got in the way. Cersei ate him up and spit him out like he was a pigeon pie with a Dornish red.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Honestly, I think that one of the reasons that I liked Ned so much was that his honor was such a big flaw. I liked that it was his downfall. It was refreshing to see that the good guys didn't always win. And it was heart-wrenching to find that even with all of the tragedy in his life, Ned could never find peace or happiness. Through it all, though, he remained a good man. I liked that about him.

Off-topic a bit: my favorite portrayal of him is his card in the board game. The artist captured an air of sadness about him that, in my opinion, is perfect.

 

[TomServo]

I know what you mean, I think having Ned die made his character that much stronger. Not to say that I didn't throw the book down in anger after it happened.

 

[TomServo]

And btw, if Jon Snow does turn out to be the child of R and L i will giggle with glee. Not that I'm a giggler of course *cough* *cough*

 

[Jaqen VM]

I am having a hard time with putting Jon as the offspring of RT. It is possible of course.

I could definitely see Ned saying that Jon was "his" ******* to prevent Robert B from bashing his baby head in. Robert (nor the cronies wanting his favor) showed no hesitation to have the offsprings of the Targaryen family killed. I do not think Ned was happy at all with this type of deed. That would fit in with Neds character IMO.

VM

 

[Boaz]

Jon is a ******* Targaryen. It is known.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

HA! That was good, but don't count your dragons before they hatch.

 

[Boaz]

Tyrion is a Targaryen *******. It is known.

 

[Tom O'Sevens]

Daenerys is Ser Arthur Dayne's *******. It is known.

'Counting your dragons' aside, though R+L = JS has alot going for it, for me personally if only one of Tywin's children is really from his loins, its definitely Tyrion.

I am erring on the side of R+L = JS and for this reason I had my fill of secret Targaryen bastards, however here's a more original 'who's the daddy' theory to think about.

Partly inspired by a recent story on a certain BBC Radio soap, what about the possibility of a younger brother cuckolding his older sibling and siring a child by his sister-in-law? Which the older brother then unknowingly raises as his own.

The end of AFfC got me thinking about Kevan in relation to Jaime and Cersai, especially with ongoing descriptions of Lancel as a younger slightly less attractive Jaime.

But here's one I am more fond of. Let's say the reason Ser Brynden Tully has never married is because the only woman he ever loved was Cat's mother Lady Minisa and he never got over her. Brynden has arguably half of the Tully family brain cells and most of the rest of them are in Catelyn(his favorite 'niece')...

Certainly puts a new perspective on the Blackfish and gives Catelyn another subconscious 'chip-on-her-shoulder' that drives her problems with bastards.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Yes, very interesting AND entirely plausible, but how would Cat know? I can buy Jon being a Targaryen *******, personal thingies aside it does make sense, but Tyrion?!? I don't know how that got started but I always saw Tyrion as the most leonine of all the Lannisters. I mean, for real, how many Targaryen bastards can there be?

 

[Tom O'Sevens]

Yes, very interesting AND entirely plausible, but how would Cat know?

I wasn't ever assuming that she would know for sure, I thinking more along the lines of a subconscious childhood memory that Cat is totally in denial about that suggested she wasn't Hoster's child. The reaction to this being the phobia of bastards that goes far deeper than Jon Snow because Catelyn subconsciously fears she is one herself.

Anyway she's UnCat now, so not won't have much effect unless Brynden coming clean to her about his relationship with her is a way to put Cat to rest. Anyhow the only possiblity of this becoming a plot is Brynden getting a POV.

 

[Boaz]

I mean, for real, how many Targaryen bastards can there be?

I admit this is a major obstacle for my "Tyrion is a Targaryen" theory. I've asked myself "How many times can Martin go to this particular well?"

Tom, if Hoster suspected his wife's unfaithfulness, this might better explain the speed and frequency with which he took mistresses after her death... then again he was a man.

And you think Kevan's loyalty to Tywin might be more out of guilt than love? Hmmm. But then again, Kevan is very judgemental (as he should be) and spiteful (as he should be) towards Jaime and Cersei... would he be so mean if they were his own children born of an illegal, incestuous union? After all, they'd just be following in daddy's footsteps.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Is it cheap to get a thrill out of being quoted so much? I wouldn't be too terribly surprised to find more incestuous affairs in the Lannister household but I would be disappointed, that literary device has just about used up in this series and it would be bad writing to use it as much as is being assumed/theorized.