So i was wondering [possible spoilers]

For various reasons, this theory is pretty much impossible. To begin with, Syrio was almost certainly killed rather than arrested. But more tellingly, the timeline doesn't work. Yoren must have taken the prisoners (including Jaqen) out of the Black Cells before Syrio and Trant fight.
Syrio had already killed 4 men before Trant was fighting him and cut his practice "stick" in half, but even if you want to assume that none of the others had a weapon that Syrio could pick up. the idea of the Master of Swords and Dancing master being able to outmanuever and escape a heavily armored knight is more than possible. If you add the idea the Syrio might be a Faceless Man and all of a sudden I'd put my money on him. As for the timeline, the only thing that's clear is that we meet Yoren (and Jaqan) AFTER Arya had escaped. WHy is it not possible that Syrio killed and took the shape of the "real" Jaqan, something he does in the beginning of AFFC?
 
Could you explain this a bit more for those of us who haven't picked up the books in awhile? Where's the evidence that the timelines don't pan out? In all of my years of reading GRRM forums I've never heard anyone mention that the timelines don't mesh. Doesn't mean that no one has brought it up but it certainly doesn't seem to be a popular rebuttal to the Jaqen = Syrio theory.

Well, it has been fairly often discussed on the main ASOIAF board (asoiaf.westeros.org) - I know because I have discussed it there. ;)

The timeline required for Jaqen to be Syrio doesn't work because the Syrio/Trant fight takes place after Ned has been arrested. (Some have argued that it might take place at the same time, but this seems unlikely since Arya notices dead bodies immediately after fleeing the fight. In any case, 'at the same time' has pretty much the same problems.)

This means that for Yoren to take 'Jaqen/Syrio' out of the Black Cells, he has to do so some time after the Syrio/Trant fight but well before Ned's execution. And he has to do this with an order signed by Ned, who is in the Black Cells himself at this time: and at a time when the Red Keep is sealed and no-one is being allowed to leave. There's no way this could have happened. If Yoren took Jaqen from the cells, it must have been before Syrio and Trant fight, and therefore they can't be the same person.

There are all sorts of other reasons why it's impossible, but that's the timeline one.
 
There are all sorts of other reasons why it's impossible, but that's the timeline one.

Mind sharing those ones, too? ;)

The Westeros forum is the one I never read because the color scheme is atrocious and hard on my eyes. The main site is also unnecessarily hard to navigate. They should take a lesson from Tower of the Hand. Anyway, that's why I missed out on the timeline discussion!
 
Mind sharing those ones, too? ;)

The Westeros forum is the one I never read because the color scheme is atrocious and hard on my eyes. The main site is also unnecessarily hard to navigate. They should take a lesson from Tower of the Hand. Anyway, that's why I missed out on the timeline discussion!

You can change the colour scheme. There are three different options, I believe, and the main site is incredibly easy to navigate (seriously, compared to here or Tower of the Hand, which isn't even a forum?).

Or we can just continue to talk about the books here ;)
 
Mind sharing those ones, too? ;)

Sure. ;)

AFFC really killed the idea, for me. Jaime's conversation with Longwaters (the jailer) makes it clear that there were only three men in the Black Cells when Yoren arrived, and that Longwaters knew who they were. So Syrio cannot have taken Jaqen's place: that would mean four men were in the cells, including Syrio.

Possibly Jaqen was never there, of course, and one of the three Longwaters refers to is Syrio. However, this doesn't really fit how Longwaters speaks of the men. Nor does it explain why Syrio would take the risk of changing his identity while in the cells. For one man to go in and another (who was never officially there) to come out is going to cause comment. We know that those going in are recorded: it is not unreasonable to think that those going out must be, too. Certainly it's a risk big enough to make the switch inexplicable.

(Longwaters' conversation also backs up the timeline argument: he doesn't specifically say when Yoren came to the Black Cells, but there's a strong indication that it was when Ned was still in power.)

Notwithstanding the comments above from The Imp, it is also very unlikely indeed that Syrio was not killed fighting Trant. The author takes pains to indicate to us that this was the case, and realistically Syrio's skill is not going to overcome Trant's superior armour. (In fact, there is a strong argument that Syrio not dying at this point would cheapen the whole scene and be bad writing, but that's another whole debate.)

For Trant to capture rather than kill Syrio is inexplicable, too. Trant was trying to capture Arya: that was his mission. And she had fled. He would not have stopped to detain Syrio, rather than pursue her. He had no reason to. And even if Syrio had been captured, why was he not executed? Every other Stark retainer we know of was killed, after all, down to Septa Mordane. Why spare one who had killed several Lannister guards?

And if for some unknown reason he was captured, why did Cersei show no interest in him thereafter, even though she was desperate to find Arya?

Either Syrio died in the fight, then, or he escaped. If the latter, how did he wind up in the Black Cells? And why, again, did Cersei and Trant apparently forget about him, or not care about his escape?

Basically, for Syrio to be Jaqen, Trant has to have taken him prisoner when it would be easier to kill him, he has to be the only Stark retainer not executed, Trant and Cersei have to then forget about him, he has to change his identity for unexplained reasons, and a man of the Night's Watch has to be allowed to empty the Black Cells on the strength of an order from the deposed Hand who is sitting next door, at a time when the Red Keep is sealed.

I could add that Syrio and Jaqen have completely different personalities as well as appearances and that there is actually no positive evidence to suggest that the two men are the same person, but at this point it feels like kicking someone who's already unconscious. ;)

The Westeros forum is the one I never read because the color scheme is atrocious and hard on my eyes. The main site is also unnecessarily hard to navigate. They should take a lesson from Tower of the Hand. Anyway, that's why I missed out on the timeline discussion!

As Wert says, we have three colour schemes, but the two alternates (black background (Targaryen) or grey background (Stark)) are only available if you register. :)
 
Is it not possible that yoren took in syrio as a friend of the starks just as he did Arya. Afterall he should have let her be because a member of the watch should not get involved in the battles, events etc. of the rest of the kingdom.

I want syrio to be alive but i doubt that he is. However, we have GOT to run into jaqen at some point.....i hope :eek:

In reference to the above statement about Syrio living = poor writing... Well firstly, thats just impossible for GRRM (he would probably have to try really hard to suck) and secondly, it was from Arya's pov. Therefore, it was 'tainted' by her emotions and what she could see. Maybe from syrios pov it would have been like a 'sunday sesh' or childs play :D

Finally, i agree with the Imp. Considering how flexible, quick and smart a fighter Syrio is/was he most likely evaded the knight and escaped. Also maybe, just maybe Trant is that embarressed by what Syrio did that he didn't mention it. My honest to God feeling is there is a reson why Cersei does not refer to these events. Maybe she does not know many of the details, maybe its not important to her, maybe there another more sinister readon that Martin has in store for us when we see Cersie's confession scenes in the following books DUN DUN DUUUN :eek:
 
Is it not possible that yarn took in syria as a friend of the starks just as he did Arya. After All he should have let her be because a member of the watch should not get involved in the battles, events etc. of the rest of the kingdom.

I want syria to be alive but i doubt that he is. However, we have GOT to run into jaqen at some point.....i hope :eek:

In reference to the above statement about Syrio living = poor writing... Well firstly, that's just impossible for GRRM (he would probably have to try really hard to suck) and secondly, it was from Arya's pov. Therefore, it was 'tainted' by her emotions and what she could see. Maybe from syrios pov it would have been like a 'sunday sesh' or child's play :D

Finally, i agree with the Imp. Considering how flexible, quick and smart a fighter Syrio is/was he most likely evaded the knight and escaped. Also maybe, just maybe Trant is that embarressed by what Syrio did that he didn't mention it. My honest to God feeling is there is a reason why Cersei does not refer to these events. Maybe she does not know many of the details, maybe its not important to her, maybe there another more sinister reason that Martin has in store for us when we see Cersie's confession scenes in the following books DUN DUN DUUUN :eek:
You make an interesting point about POVs. I think we sometimes forget that what we see if from the point of view of that character and not necessarily the event exactly as it happened.

Specifically about Syrio. Given what we know about Syrio I'd bet my money on an unarmed Syrio being able to either escape for possibly beat an armed Ser Trant. Something i said in another thread is also possible- Syrio is a faceless man, killed him, and took his identity.

If all other arguments fail I'll stick to the theory that if GRRM doesn't show the body being dismembered or destroyed in some way there's a chance that the person that appeared to have died is still alive.
 
Just asking. Isn't someone looking on a site like this being a little unrealistic if they do not expect to be spoiled? Isn't it like looking at the last page of a mystery, or a thorough discussion of it, anyway? I wouldn't look, unless I was up to date with the books.

I suppose asking for support to continue reading is fair, on your own thread. But I wouldn't do that either. If it doesn't appeal, good grief, don't read it. I've not much sympathy for that. It is fun hanging out with people who are into it, and want to participate, while we wait for the next opus.

I hope Syrio lives, and since we didn't see him die...
 
Raven, thanks for that explanation. I never held out hope for Syrio=Jaqen, but you've cinched it.

As for Syrio being alive... When he told Arya to run along, he also told her that the First Sword of Braavos does not run... or something like that. It seems unlikely if he'd planned on running that he'd have sent Arya off alone... It seems more likely he'd have told her to wait at the door for him while he finished off Ser Meryn. If he was going to escape, he seemed to be waiting until the last second. I think he spoke truly when he told Arya that he refused to flee.

Now was Jaqen really a prisoner or was he faking it? I think he really was a prisoner. I base this on two events concerning Arya.

First, when Yoren and the recruits are overwhelmed by Adam Marbrand, Jaqen pleads with Arya to free him. Jaqen is chained to Rorge and Biter and all three are chained to a cart in the stable which is nearly engulfed in fire. Why would Jaqen stay chained to two psychopaths in an inferno? It seems like an incredible length to go to in order to get to know Arya... I think Biter's clothes were actually aflame! It makes more sense that if neither Yoren nor any of the recruits were Jaqen's target, then he would have slipped his chains and ditched Yoren long before the attack. Since he did not leave Yoren and since he did not kill any of the recruits, he must have really been a prisoner. If he'd been faking the whole thing, why did he not kill anyone?

Second, Jaqen finds Arya in Harrenhal and grants her three deaths. He told her he owed her for saving three lives. Either Jaqen is serious or joking. If he's joking, then he kills Chiswyck, Weese, and assists Arya in freeing the Northmen because he's a complete psycho. If Jaqen was serious, then his reaction to Arya's naming of him as the third life makes plenty of sense. I believe the deaths of Weese, Chiswyck, the Lannisters, and his visceral reaction to Arya actually naming him all spring from the seriousness with which he took his oath to Arya. The seriousness of the oath shows that she actually freed him from the fire when he was helpless to free himself.

SPOILERS!!! Below are some spoilers from ACOK, ASOS, and AFFC.

Now, who was Jaqen after? I don't know. Jaqen left Arya near the end of ACOK. What significant deaths in Westeros since then can be ascribed to murder or accident... deaths that were not vividly depicted in action or might seem suspicious? Off the top of my head, I'd say Balon Greyjoy, Jeor Mormont, Joffrey Baratheon, Cortnay Penrose, and Pate the boy from Oldtown.

Penrose died we assume from one of Melisandre's shadows. We actually read of Davos seeing her give birth to it underneath Storm's End. Also, Penrose would not have been targeted for death before Robert's death.

Joffrey seems to have been poisoned by Olenna Tyrell. Why would someone have sent Jaqen to kill Joffrey while Robert was still king?

The Old Bear was slain by one of his own men, Dirk. Could being Yoren's prisoner have been his way to travel to Castle Black and kill Jeor Mormont? Jaqen might have posed as Dirk, but it seems an awful long time to have waited to kill the commander. I would have thought that Jaqen would have had dozens of better chances and one less confusing than the melee at Craster's.

Pate, it seems, was indeed killed by a Faceless Man. It might have been Jaqen. But I don't think Pate was even a target when Yoren picked up Jaqen. And if Jaqen was going to Oldtown to murder an acolyte of the Citadel, why was he in King's Landing? I'm assuming Jaqen got nicked there... It would make more sense for Jaqen just to sail to Oldtown because it's the largest port in Westeros. With his abilities for disguise, slipping into town and doing his thing would be easy.

Which brings me to Balon Greyjoy. Shortly after re-proclaiming himself King of the Iron Island and Lord Reaper, he fell off a bridge. It's interesting that one of Jaqen's confirmed kills, Chiswyck, also fell from a great height. No one saw Balon fall. He was in his personal castle traversing a bridge he'd walked over thousands of times. And most conviently, Balon's younger brother Euron (who'd been banished and who'd traveled the globe and who is friendly with the most shady characters) suddenly turned up the very next day! That Balon was murdered seems clear. But then again, Balon was not king when Jaqen joined Yoren... but mayhaps Euron was already planning his return.

If I had to bet, and I'm not a betting man, I'd put my money on Balon as Jaqen's target.
 
Now, who was Jaqen after?
Yes! Who was he after? I'm intensely curious!

Considering only those dead after his release may not be the best way to ascertain his original target however. I'm highly skeptical of all of those you mentioned, why was he in KL when all those murders occurred so far away? Perhaps he may not have followed through with his original mission yet. There could even be a possibility that his mission was done for him already so he had no need to return to KL. Thus he continued on to wherever his next mission led him.

Personally though, the fact that he was in KL and sentenced to the black cells, likely meant he attempted his assassination and failed inside KL. Thus the target resided inside KL during his capture. I doubt he'd get caught if he were just passing through KL to some other destination. I would think someone of his qualifications would keep a low profile until the last possible moment. Perhaps he was there at the behest of Varys to off Littlefinger or vice versa? I believe only those two have the cunning it takes to capture a Faceless Man and foil his attempt. Who was it that originally mentioned the Faceless Men in the counselors' meeting? I believe someone complained about how expensive they were, a clue perhaps?

Another interesting tidbit, when Jaime was down in the cells inquiring about the cells' occupants, he scoffs at how there were too many guardsmen for just 3 inmates and curses Littlefinger for being responsible as master of coin. Did Littlefinger put him down there after a failed assassination attempt against his life? Knowing he was a faceless man, did he put extra guards in to keep him contained? Is Jaqen now running around the Eyrie continuing his original mission?
 
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Who was it that originally mentioned the Faceless Men in the counselors' meeting? I believe someone complained about how expensive they were, a clue perhaps?

The quote is, I believe:

"Do you have any idea how costly they are?" complained Littlefinger. "You could hire an army of common sellswords for half the price, and that's for a merchant. I don't dare think what they might ask for a princess." [A Game of Thrones, Eddard's POV]
Which means that if Jaquen has been hired, it's by someone with a lot of convertible assets.
 
But if Jaqen was after royalty and was caught, then I cannot imagine him even recieving a trial or jail time... I feel he'd have been summarily executed.
 
Specifically about Syrio. Given what we know about Syrio I'd bet my money on an unarmed Syrio being able to either escape for possibly beat an armed Ser Trant.

Based on my own fighting experience, I'd bet against you. There is a reason anyone who could afford plate wore it: superior armour trumps superior skill and agility nine times out of ten.

But that's neither here nor there, because of course the author may not share my view or might skip 'realism' for the sake of the story. This is fiction, after all!

What we can say is that if Syrio beat Trant or escaped from him, he didn't wound him in the process. We see Trant soon afterwards and no injury is mentioned. We would also have to explain how Syrio escaped the Red Keep, and account for the curious lack of interest in what happened to him afterwards. A Stark retainer, a very dangerous and skilled fighter, and one who was with Arya when she fled, escapes a knight of the Kingsguard: and yet nobody seems bothered?

The only credible explanation is that Syrio did not escape or defeat Trant. Which means that he is dead.

Something i said in another thread is also possible- Syrio is a faceless man, killed him, and took his identity.

Killed Trant, you mean? But then he's a different Faceless Man from Jaqen, because Trant is still kicking around King's Landing long after Jaqen has left. And any theory that needs more than one FM in any one place at a time to make it work looks kinda stretched. ;)

If all other arguments fail I'll stick to the theory that if GRRM doesn't show the body being dismembered or destroyed in some way there's a chance that the person that appeared to have died is still alive.

Well, just about anything is theoretically possible in a fantasy book - the author can pretty much do as he likes. But for Syrio to be alive, the whole bit about Arya 'seeing with her eyes' has to be misdirection by the author, which kind of cheapens it, to me: and some pretty far-fetched and extensive back-filling has to be done, which is really not GRRM's style at all. I would say there's more chance of Ned being alive than Syrio.
 
I had a thought that maybe the Faceless Men were like the Pyromancers and their powers were slowly returning almost unknownst to them. The Faceless Men would be an organization of effective mundane assassins steeped in mysticism and ritual and not neccessarily magic wielding death-dealers. So assuming Jaqen was hired, he may not be quite as skilled as he appears later due to the simple fact his magic wasnt quite returned. So then, he discovers the old powers are returning but he's fettered night and day. Sure he can change his face, but he's still a man in manacles down in the black cells so he doesnt want to risk revealing his power and not being released. The Wall is offered and that would make an easy way to get away so he uses it. Remember Rorge and Biter are scared of him, noticably, maybe they saw him practicing or somesuch.

Now, as for who he was after, I dont know.....
 
Good point, Aegon. I like the idea that seemingly worthless rituals might be beginning to have an effect.



By the way, do you knowledgable folk know why any of the prisoners were released from the black cells into anyone's charge, let alone to someone travelling by land through a war zone? (And especially prisoners who needed so many guards to watch over them when they were locked up inside a fortress.)

What do we know about the black cells?
 
Based on my own fighting experience, I'd bet against you. There is a reason anyone who could afford plate wore it: superior armour trumps superior skill and agility nine times out of ten.

But that's neither here nor there, because of course the author may not share my view or might skip 'realism' for the sake of the story. This is fiction, after all!

What we can say is that if Syrio beat Trant or escaped from him, he didn't wound him in the process. We see Trant soon afterwards and no injury is mentioned. We would also have to explain how Syrio escaped the Red Keep, and account for the curious lack of interest in what happened to him afterwards. A Stark retainer, a very dangerous and skilled fighter, and one who was with Arya when she fled, escapes a knight of the Kingsguard: and yet nobody seems bothered?

The only credible explanation is that Syrio did not escape or defeat Trant. Which means that he is dead.



Killed Trant, you mean? But then he's a different Faceless Man from Jaqen, because Trant is still kicking around King's Landing long after Jaqen has left. And any theory that needs more than one FM in any one place at a time to make it work looks kinda stretched. ;)



Well, just about anything is theoretically possible in a fantasy book - the author can pretty much do as he likes. But for Syrio to be alive, the whole bit about Arya 'seeing with her eyes' has to be misdirection by the author, which kind of cheapens it, to me: and some pretty far-fetched and extensive back-filling has to be done, which is really not GRRM's style at all. I would say there's more chance of Ned being alive than Syrio.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. My own ifhting experience tells me that even an unarmed man/woman can be tremendously effective against and armed person. As was proven in the fight when Bronn championed Tyrion, GRRm thinks that a heavily armored kinight can be very vulenerable to someone who is not. Would it be so impossible that Syrio picked up a sowrd from one of the 4 men he killed? Would it be impossible that he escaped and we just weren't pirvy to and conversations about his escape?

WHile i respect the thought you put into your reply, I'll point out that GRRM's world will not always conform to what you personally beleive to be true, and if it doesn't the vast majority of his fans probably won't think this disagreement "cheapens" his writing.
 
To enter deeper into the realms of fanatsy (as it were):


It has been said, variously:
  1. that Syrio died (but no-one we know has said this);
  2. that he escaped (and yet no mention is made of such a dangerous escapee);
  3. that he was captured and placed in the black cells (but then why was he released to Yoren's "care"?);
  4. that he took the place of Trant (which means that he could not be Jaquen, it not being possible - one assumes - for him to be in two places at once).
He could, perhaps, have taken on the face/form of one of the other five Lannister guardsmen, which would have made his escape easier. This would, though, require the guardsman he replaced to be unidentifable (I'm guessing that he couldn't transform another's looks), perhaps made so by his wounds and that Trant was knocked unconcious for long enough to do the switch. Syrio could say that he (as the guardsman) had dealt the fatal blow to the traitorous Syrio.


But we probably won't know whether Syrio has survived for a book or two, if ever.
 
To enter deeper into the realms of fanatsy (as it were):



It has been said, variously:
  1. that Syrio died (but no-one we know has said this);
  2. that he escaped (and yet no mention is made of such a dangerous escapee);
  3. that he was captured and placed in the black cells (but then why was he released to Yoren's "care"?);
  4. that he took the place of Trant (which means that he could not be Jaquen, it not being possible - one assumes - for him to be in two places at once).
He could, perhaps, have taken on the face/form of one of the other five Lannister guardsmen, which would have made his escape easier. This would, though, require the guardsman he replaced to be unidentifable (I'm guessing that he couldn't transform another's looks), perhaps made so by his wounds and that Trant was knocked unconcious for long enough to do the switch. Syrio could say that he (as the guardsman) had dealt the fatal blow to the traitorous Syrio.


But we probably won't know whether Syrio has survived for a book or two, if ever.

The thing that strikes me most about Syrio is that GRRM, an author who gives more detail than any other author i can think of, gives us zero detail about Syrio's ultimate fate. Given how meticulous he is about his storylines it's almost impossible for me to believe that Syrio disappears iforever from Westeros in the way that he did.
 

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