So i was wondering [possible spoilers]

[Werthead]

The thing that strikes me most about Syrio is that GRRM, an author who gives more detail than any other author i can think of, gives us zero detail about Syrio's ultimate fate. Given how meticulous he is about his storylines it's almost impossible for me to believe that Syrio disappears iforever from Westeros in the way that he did.

To be honest, Syrio is not that big a deal. In the grand scheme of the series, Syrio is a nobody. Lollys has had more screen time than he has. Syrio's role in the story is to give Arya enough training with Needle to make it plausible she could survive in very hostile circumstances afterwards and that's pretty much it. Once his role in the story is done, GRRM gets rid of him in his traditional manner He doesn't spend a lot of time on the issue because it's not very important compared to everything else that is going on.

This probably taps into GRRM's ongoing bemusement about how minor, unimportant characters grow in the reader's imagination and become major favourites when he never intended them to be (Randyll Tarly and Bronze Yohn Royce being notable other examples; Darkstar is an example of this backfiring when GRRM deliberately tried to do it).

 

[Ursa major]

Screen time is not really the issue. Syrio leapt off the page. Whether his leaping days are over, we shall have to wait and see (or not).

 

[Raven]

I had a thought that maybe the Faceless Men were like the Pyromancers and their powers were slowly returning almost unknownst to them. The Faceless Men would be an organization of effective mundane assassins steeped in mysticism and ritual and not neccessarily magic wielding death-dealers. So assuming Jaqen was hired, he may not be quite as skilled as he appears later due to the simple fact his magic wasnt quite returned. So then, he discovers the old powers are returning but he's fettered night and day. Sure he can change his face, but he's still a man in manacles down in the black cells so he doesnt want to risk revealing his power and not being released. The Wall is offered and that would make an easy way to get away so he uses it. Remember Rorge and Biter are scared of him, noticably, maybe they saw him practicing or somesuch.

Now, as for who he was after, I dont know.....

That's an interesting thought, and actually pretty original: I haven't heard it before, at least.

As was proven in the fight when Bronn championed Tyrion, GRRm thinks that a heavily armored kinight can be very vulenerable to someone who is not.

This is true, and I do acknowledge above that my opinion isn't necessarily GRRM's, and it's his that counts.

Would it be so impossible that Syrio picked up a sowrd from one of the 4 men he killed? Would it be impossible that he escaped and we just weren't pirvy to and conversations about his escape?

As I say, nothing's impossible. But if he picked up a sword, he did no damage to Trant with it that we know of. If he escaped, there is no mention of it despite several opportunities (whenever Arya's escape is mentioned). If GRRM were to reveal that either of these things happened... he is not the writer I know he is. It would simply be cheap, bad writing: setting up a situation where you lead the reader to an inevitable conclusion, then pull a rabbit out of a hat you never told the reader was even there. He has never done anything like it in this series or elsewhere.

The thing that strikes me most about Syrio is that GRRM, an author who gives more detail than any other author i can think of, gives us zero detail about Syrio's ultimate fate.

On the contrary. He gives us clear details of Syrio's ultimate fate: they're from Arya's POV and they're in AGOT.

Now, some readers don't want to accept that. Fair enough. But the above is a circular argument: basically citing as proof of your belief that Syrio is alive, the fact that you don't accept that he is dead.

Given how meticulous he is about his storylines it's almost impossible for me to believe that Syrio disappears iforever from Westeros in the way that he did.

Why?

We leave Syrio, a minor character, in a situation where we are told he is certain to die. He is not seen again for three or more books - about half the series. He is mentioned only once, and there is no suggestion then that he is alive. His posited survival raises a number of serious difficulties, his death none. Why should we assume he is alive? Because GRRM is 'meticulous about his storylines'? But Syrio, as I say, is a minor character whose storyline - such as it was - is over.

Bascially, you are hanging an awful lot on the fact that we don't actually see a sword cleaving Syrio in two.

 

[Ursa major]

The fact remains, though, that Jaqen, someone with considerably powers of disguise, had been captured and was being led through a war zone after being taken from what everyone seems to think was KL's high security cells. There has been no true explanation of this, and so I think that gives us the right to discuss what may be minor characters who not only say that they come from the same place, but have been reticent in owning up to their main talents.

Syrio was meant to be a dancing teacher, at least in the eyes of most folk, was he not? And as far as I recall, we haven't been told anything about Jaqen's real purpose or why he was where he was. (For the moment, I'm assuming that at least one of his tasks was to deliver the "invite" from Braavos to Arya.)

 

[Raven]

The fact remains, though, that Jaqen, someone with considerably powers of disguise, had been captured and was being led through a war zone after being taken from what everyone seems to think was KL's high security cells. There has been no true explanation of this, and so I think that gives us the right to discuss what may be minor characters who not only say that they come from the same place, but have been reticent in owning up to their main talents.

Syrio was meant to be a dancing teacher, at least in the eyes of most folk, was he not? And as far as I recall, we haven't been told anything about Jaqen's real purpose or why he was where he was. (For the moment, I'm assuming that at least one of his tasks was to deliver the "invite" from Braavos to Arya.)

Well, if we're back to 'Jaqen=Syrio', rather than 'Syrio survived': then the former, as I've said, I would regard as actually disproved rather than just unlikely.

And of course everyone has a right to discuss whatever they like, wouldn't suggest otherwise!

 

[Ursa major]

I don't think I said Jaqen = Syrio in my previous post (although I think it may be possible). But I don't think it has been disproved. If there was any proof one way or the other, the issue would have gone away.

What we have, though, ar a number of odd things: a master swordsman pretending to be a dancing teacher; a master of disguise being caught, put in high security cells before being released to the care of someone going through a war zone for what must be one or two thousand miles.

Given how well plotted most of the rest of the series is, I would be disappointed if there wasn't something else going on (something that may, I'll gladly admit, have little or nothing to do with what we've discussed up to now).

 

[Bazza]

To be fair, the reasoning behind Syrio pretending to be a dancing master is only because sword fighting is unladylike. Eddard is perfectly aware that he is an excellent swordsman which is why he was hired.

Also, yes GRRM is extremely detailed about his characters and their fates, but he also leaves multiple red herrings scattered throughout his book. He leaves many potentially important characters' fates slightly ambigous so that we don't automatically think all of them are still alive and kicking somewhere. Davos, Benjen, the Hound, Brienne, Syrio, Gregor, Aegon, a great many have unknown fates who many think are still alive, but i guarantee at least one of these characters is dead and rotting.

I had a thought that maybe the Faceless Men were like the Pyromancers and their powers were slowly returning almost unknownst to them. The Faceless Men would be an organization of effective mundane assassins steeped in mysticism and ritual and not neccessarily magic wielding death-dealers. So assuming Jaqen was hired, he may not be quite as skilled as he appears later due to the simple fact his magic wasnt quite returned. So then, he discovers the old powers are returning but he's fettered night and day. Sure he can change his face, but he's still a man in manacles down in the black cells so he doesnt want to risk revealing his power and not being released. The Wall is offered and that would make an easy way to get away so he uses it. Remember Rorge and Biter are scared of him, noticably, maybe they saw him practicing or somesuch.

Now, as for who he was after, I dont know.....

Jaqen does say when telling Arya that he must repay her for the deaths that "The Red God must have his due".

 

[southron sword]

Which brings me to Balon Greyjoy. Shortly after re-proclaiming himself King of the Iron Island and Lord Reaper, he fell off a bridge. It's interesting that one of Jaqen's confirmed kills, Chiswyck, also fell from a great height. No one saw Balon fall. He was in his personal castle traversing a bridge he'd walked over thousands of times. And most conviently, Balon's younger brother Euron (who'd been banished and who'd traveled the globe and who is friendly with the most shady characters) suddenly turned up the very next day! That Balon was murdered seems clear. But then again, Balon was not king when Jaqen joined Yoren... but mayhaps Euron was already planning his return.

If I had to bet, and I'm not a betting man, I'd put my money on Balon as Jaqen's target.

Heres a theory. What if Euron hired Jaqen (Through his many riches as we see at the Kingsmoot) to kill Balon. But also, to help gain the support of the North i.e. The Starks. Euron found out Ned went to KL. Jaqen went, possibly to disguise himself to gain access to the Starks. Met Yoren and devised a plan to take one of the children to the wall, thus got himself captured and put in a black cell, so Yoren could then free him, and while walking to the wall get to know the Stark (who happens to be Arya). Gain the support of the Stark, to gain the support of Euron, to take over westeros. Obviously things didnt go exactly to plan, and some did. Ned died, which caused chaos to get Arya out. But then Robb went to war, and by the time Euron got there things were messed up. But if Euron could have gotten the support of the north then that may have swung the tide. Ofcourse, Balon and Theon had no idea of this plan and attacked the North, thus ruining Eurons plans. Im sure there are many flaws in this theory, but I like the idea of Euron and Jaqen working together.

 

[Culhwch]

Met Yoren and devised a plan to take one of the children to the wall, thus got himself captured and put in a black cell, so Yoren could then free him, and while walking to the wall get to know the Stark (who happens to be Arya). Gain the support of the Stark, to gain the support of Euron, to take over westeros. Obviously things didnt go exactly to plan, and some did. Ned died, which caused chaos to get Arya out.

Well, here's one flaw - if Ned doesn't get killed, which Stark has reason to travel with Yoren to the Wall?

 

[Culhwch]

I don't think I said Jaqen = Syrio in my previous post (although I think it may be possible). But I don't think it has been disproved. If there was any proof one way or the other, the issue would have gone away.

What we have, though, ar a number of odd things: a master swordsman pretending to be a dancing teacher; a master of disguise being caught, put in high security cells before being released to the care of someone going through a war zone for what must be one or two thousand miles.

Given how well plotted most of the rest of the series is, I would be disappointed if there wasn't something else going on (something that may, I'll gladly admit, have little or nothing to do with what we've discussed up to now).

I'm firmly in the camp of Syrio NOT being Jaqen (and I also think Jon is Ned's son, so feel free to compare my intelligence to that of, say, a turnip or some other similar root vegetable) and do you know what I don't like about this theory? It's lack of elegance. For a start, it seems too obvious, too much like Martin wants to lead us down that path. I think he's foxing. Secondly, just the simnple logistics. So what's the argument, that either Syrio is captured and thrown in the cells for the worst kind of dangerous, psychopathic criminals, or else escapes and hides in the cells for the worst kind of dangerous, psychopathic criminals, hoping for the chance to be freed by a black brother he may or may not know about at the time. Now I know jailers aren't given much credit, but honestly, if you're guarding these high-security cells, don't you notice one of two things - that you either inexplicably have one more prisoner today than you did yesterday, or that the guy Yoren is pulling out of there today looks nothing like the guy you threw in there yesterday? That is the key flaw for me in this thery. It relies too much on the reader not asking this question and just assuming that anything goes in the Red Keep's dungeon. The way everything else is explained in such rigorous and exact detail in this world, that'd be dissappointing. Who knows, maybe it will be so and Martin will have some plausible explanation, but just now I can't see it happening.

 

[The Imp]

I'm firmly in the camp of Syrio NOT being Jaqen (and I also think Jon is Ned's son, so feel free to compare my intelligence to that of, say, a turnip or some other similar root vegetable) and do you know what I don't like about this theory? It's lack of elegance. For a start, it seems too obvious, too much like Martin wants to lead us down that path. I think he's foxing. Secondly, just the simnple logistics. So what's the argument, that either Syrio is captured and thrown in the cells for the worst kind of dangerous, psychopathic criminals, or else escapes and hides in the cells for the worst kind of dangerous, psychopathic criminals, hoping for the chance to be freed by a black brother he may or may not know about at the time. Now I know jailers aren't given much credit, but honestly, if you're guarding these high-security cells, don't you notice one of two things - that you either inexplicably have one more prisoner today than you did yesterday, or that the guy Yoren is pulling out of there today looks nothing like the guy you threw in there yesterday? That is the key flaw for me in this thery. It relies too much on the reader not asking this question and just assuming that anything goes in the Red Keep's dungeon. The way everything else is explained in such rigorous and exact detail in this world, that'd be dissappointing. Who knows, maybe it will be so and Martin will have some plausible explanation, but just now I can't see it happening.

Well, given the skills of the Faceless Men, i could easily imagine a scenario where Jaqan killed the person that was "Jaqan" and took his form. This would have happened after the prisoners were taken from the cells, so no worries about extra prisoners etc. The real problem for is is whether or not there were two separate faceless Men; Jaqan and Syrio, or were Jaqan and Syrio the same person. To furhter comlicate matters, if Syrio is alive, what happened to Ser trant?

I think that it may be possible that Syrio got the better of Trant, hid him away somehwere, and took his place to learn whatever he needed to learn, or maybe to accomplish some unknown mission. This could have happened quickly enough so that when Trant recovered he just wnet on about his business, not wanting to admit that he was bested by an unarmed man. This would also leave Syrio free to kill and take the place of the Jaqan "donor" form person. . I think this all might work.

 

[Culhwch]

I really need to do a reread, because I'm hazy on the particulars.

But it's so far after the fact now, it's going to look a little trite when Syrio/Jaqen reveals himself to Arya and sits down to say, 'Now you may be wondering how I got here. This is how it all happened...' Just from a technique standpoint, I can't see how Martin makes it work. This is at a minimum of FOUR books later.

I think Syrio suffers a form of Ned-Can't-Be-Dead disease, but it's even more acute because we never saw the body.

 

[Culhwch]

I should really stop double posting...

Well, given the skills of the Faceless Men, i could easily imagine a scenario where Jaqan killed the person that was "Jaqan" and took his form. This would have happened after the prisoners were taken from the cells, so no worries about extra prisoners etc.

No. Surely not. This would require the original Jaqen to be left all by himself somewhere - even chained up, I find that unlikely. At the very least, he'd have been with Rorge and Biter. And if he was alone, Faceless Jaqen still has to kill regular Jaqen, dispose of the body and then get back in manacles without anyone noticing.

The real problem for is is whether or not there were two separate faceless Men; Jaqan and Syrio, or were Jaqan and Syrio the same person.

I think Syrio is Syrio. I'm assuming Ned would have done at least a little research into who he hired to tutor his daughter in sword-fighting, so unless this Faceless Man paid off random people Ned or his men questioned about him to give a fictionalised history, I don't think the argument stands up here.

I think that it may be possible that Syrio got the better of Trant, hid him away somehwere, and took his place to learn whatever he needed to learn, or maybe to accomplish some unknown mission. This could have happened quickly enough so that when Trant recovered he just wnet on about his business, not wanting to admit that he was bested by an unarmed man. This would also leave Syrio free to kill and take the place of the Jaqan "donor" form person. . I think this all might work.

Interesting theory, and not one I've seen elsewhere. I don't buy it, but still interesting.

And Imp, don't think I'm just trying to pick apart your theories, here. All this talk has just got me back thinking about it all again, and I'm rolling it over in my mind. Doing my thinking on the screen, as it were...

 

[The Imp]

I should really stop double posting...



No. Surely not. This would require the original Jaqen to be left all by himself somewhere - even chained up, I find that unlikely. At the very least, he'd have been with Rorge and Biter. And if he was alone, Faceless Jaqen still has to kill regular Jaqen, dispose of the body and then get back in manacles without anyone noticing.



I think Syrio is Syrio. I'm assuming Ned would have done at least a little research into who he hired to tutor his daughter in sword-fighting, so unless this Faceless Man paid off random people Ned or his men questioned about him to give a fictionalised history, I don't think the argument stands up here.



Interesting theory, and not one I've seen elsewhere. I don't buy it, but still interesting.

And Imp, don't think I'm just trying to pick apart your theories, here. All this talk has just got me back thinking about it all again, and I'm rolling it over in my mind. Doing my thinking on the screen, as it were...

The same goes for me. I appreciate feedback on my crackpot theories, and when I;m actually awake tomorrow I'll talk more about what you most recently said.

 

[southron sword]

Well, here's one flaw - if Ned doesn't get killed, which Stark has reason to travel with Yoren to the Wall?

Yoren and Jaqen would have found a way. Maybe Jaqen was going to kill Ned anyways so then Yoren could steal one of the girls and go up to the North and say, "Hey, Euron Crowseye hates the Lannisters too, You two should team up." Then Robb says, "Sure, the more the merrier". and there ya have it.

P.S. Im making this up as I go along. Theres too much tension in that other thread.

 

[Ursa major]

As I long ago posted (the one which Cul has resurrected, after Southron Sword did the same for the thread), I'm more than willing to believe that we've got the wrong end of more than one stick (including Syrio's).

However, I still think something is (or some somethings are) going on. The alternative would be to believe that GRRM is either fine with a lot of convenient coincidences or that he's happy with deus ex machina solutions. I don't believe that either one of these is likely.

 

[Culhwch]

Trawling The Citadel (am at work and bored) I came across this FAQ which I really like because it backs up what I've been saying in this thread...

6.1.3. Is Syrio dead?

Syrio’s fate is completely unknown. However, speculation has run between his having been killed, his having been imprisoned, and his having been merely a disguise of a Faceless Man who was thrown into the black cells, changed into Jaqen H’ghar, and is now at large in Westeros. A Feast for Crows appears to put an end to this latter theory, as Jaqen H’ghar was apparently already in the black cells before Syrio’s confrontation with Meryn Trant.

In 2005, GRRM pointed out that Syrio seems to have been left in a hopeless situation when he was last seen, and suggested readers should "draw your own conclusions" based on this (SSM), which seems to imply that Syrio Forel was in fact killed. More recent reports (but, it should be said, unconfirmed) indicate GRRM does not understand why he gets asked the question repeatedly, pointing out that Syrio is not immortal; if accurate, this seems to more heavily imply that Syrio Forel is dead.

 

[TK-421]

Yes, he's dead. Unfortunate, but GRRM likes to kill many of the cool characters.

 

[TPA]

Regarding the faceless man in Oldtown...

There seems to be a rift in the Citadel, so much so that one faction feels in danger of the other. Do you think the faceless man may be a part of the "danger" hired by one of the factions.

Where is this rift leading? Is one group covering up the fact of dragons for a good reason?

 

[Boaz]

Yes, he's dead. Unfortunate, but GRRM likes to kill many of the cool characters.

I beg to disagree, TK. It is fortunate that GRRM does kill off intriguing characters because that action lends authenticity to the story. He hooked me with the execution in KL...