what's your ideal end to ASOIAF

[Boaz]

I can't picture BFS going out ignominiously, like Gregor, or fading away like Aemon. He'll either go out like Vardis Egen, championing his mistress, or he'll remain stalwart and steadfast guarding Dany when the story ends.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Vardis Egen? I'm drawing a blank.

 

[Boaz]

Ser Vardis was Lysa's captain who was slain by Bronn in Tyrion's first trial.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Ah yes, what a great duel that was!

You know I reckon Bronn should end up doing well, showing how often d*ckheads come up trumps. Sort of like the Thenardiers in Les Miserables.

 

[Boaz]

Recently I've been playing Westeros Total War, a mod for Medieval Total War 2, on my PC. I posted a progress report in the MTW2 thread in the gaming section. This is not my "ideal ending", but it's kind of fun to play What If.

Long live King Alester!

 

[Buffalo]

While my ideal ending is not nearly as entertaining as some of the others, I would vastly enjoy seeing Dany and Jon together. Also I would be very disappointed if Dany did not somehow get the Unsullied to join the Night's Watch (what better a place for several thousand eunuchs than a diminishing force of men swore to celibacy?) That is really it, considering I working under the assumption that the blonde bitch will eventually die (which I am looking forward to).

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Interesting idea with the Unsullied! Welcome to the Chron, Buffalo!

 

[Boaz]

Buffalo, Welcome!

The Unsullied joining the NW. I'm mad I did not see it before... Good thought provoking concept.

But the Unsullied are bought... this means they are slaves. Slavery is the reason Eddard Stark wanted Jorah Mormont's head. The original idea for the NW is a volunteer force to guard mankind against demonic powers.

Of course, the percentage of volunteers currently in the NW must be lower than fifty percent. Political refugees and criminals who cut deals with the prosecution now make up the bulk of the NW. Of the five volunteers that I can think of in the NW... Noye, Royce, Mormont, Stark, and Snow... three of them came from the North. I get the feeling that most of the volunteers are northmen. The idea of the noble, sacrificing, volunteer NW is gone.

Stannis and his men, although not of the NW, are certainly political refugees. Their presence brings the continued neutrality of the NW into question.

Yet it seems to me, that Lord Snow would love to rebuild the NW into a volunteer force mirroring the efforts of the Old Bear, Donal Noye, Ben Stark, and himself. Would he accept the Unsullied? Would he accept them en masse? Would he allow them to each make their own decisions as free men?

A more pertinent question to me is... Why would Dany dismiss her most steadfast troops and personal bodyguard upon arriving into the nest of vipers that turned on her father and brother? Why would she suddenly surround herself with only Martells, Greyjoys, or Tyrells? The list of Kings, Hands, Princes, and Princesses who have died untimely in King's Landing in the last seventeen years or so is quite long... King Aerys II, King Robert, King Joffrey, Prince Aegon, Prince Oberyn, Princess Elia, Princess Rhaenys, Hand Chelsted, Hand Rossart, Hand Arryn, Hand Stark, Hand Lannister... did I forget anyone?

Barristan knows this as well as anyone. He should counsel Daenerys to keep bodyguards without loyalties to Houses, lands, women, or religions close by her side. The Kingsguard is supposed to provide this for the monarch, but we know that Jaime killed one king and one hand... Barristan switched his loyalties, twice... Arys betrayed Tommen for a woman... Boros and Sandor turned tail... Loras is in his second Kingsguard... Osmund's loyalty is only to himself... and Balon was coerced to swear allegiance to Tommen over his own brother.

Dany may have soft spots for Houses Dayne, Darry, and Martell... but the Darrys are extinct; House Dayne's heir (Edric) is an outlaw and their best fighter, Gerold aka Darkstar, is a loose cannon; and House Martell is trying to hide the fact that Arianne rebelled against the Iron Throne from House Lannister because the Martells cannot stand up against the combined might of the Tyrells and Lannisters.

Dany has special hatred for Houses Lannister and Stark. She views them as most responsible for the deaths of her father and brother. If she strengthened the NW with Unsullied, this would only strengthen House Stark and the North.

Also, Dany will hear that Jon is Eddard's *******... his only surviving son. Dany won't want to help him at all. But some will say, "Varys and Illyrio will tell her that he is actually Rhaegar's son... and Dany will want to help family." But remember that Dany believes Rhaegar's death and the cause of the entire rebellion was the fault of Lyanna. Dany thinks that Lyanna was a conniving slut who puts Cersei and Arianne to shame. Dany will view Jon as Lyanna's son, not Rhaegar's.

This would be ironic because Jon's initial quandary was that Lyanna and Eddard feared Robert would view him as Rhaegar's son, not Lyanna's.

Thanks for putting up with my disjointed first thoughts on the Unsullied and the NW. I'm sure it would be long before someone gets me to reverse my original positions.

 

[that old guy]

I swear to God there will be hell to pay if it ends with:

"Ned awoke, sweating, and was relieved to find it was all just a bad dream."

Please, dear god, no flashbacks to the Dark Tower Series.

 

[Ursa major]

Please, dear god, no flashbacks to the Dark Tower Series.

I hope you're not hinting that Melisandre is going to make Stannis, for example, the Crimson King. (Or, worse, that the story is going to make a detour via a so far unmentioned part of Westeros: New Mexico. )

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Boaz, your long reply is quite interesting. allow me to present you with a rebuttal:

1: Eddard Stark is dead. Mormont knows why he was banished, but I doubt that many others know this. Selmy does. But that's besides the point. Even if Stark was still alive, I think that he could understand the necessity of the Night Watch. Had he been alive, and though I realise this is all conjencture, I am sure that he knew what was best.

2: Hardly anybody knows what is up with Jon, so I doubt that Dany would see it as Lyanna's child. Of course, whether it's Lyanna's child or Eddard's is moot. To her, Jon is a Stark. You could say that Selmy knows this, but I am not so sure. He would probably not have been told now that he wasn't present at the Tower of Joy.

 

[Boaz]

I swear to God there will be hell to pay if it ends with:

"Ned awoke, sweating, and was relieved to find it was all just a bad dream."

I hear Tad Williams's Memory Sorrow and Thorn has an ending along these lines and GRRM has said he was an influence...

I hope I hear wrong though, because I just started Stone of Farewell and am already doubting whether or not I want to keep slogging forward

Read GRRM's Not A Blog entry yesterday... ASOIAF will not end as Eddard's dream.

Syphon, just to let you know up front, I tend to get bogged down with semantics when it suits me. So I'd like to say that Mormont is not banished, he's on the run from justice. I think the whole North and all the good players know Mormont's story. But with the fall of House Stark and the rise of House Bolton, would Cersei and Roose care if Jorah came back? Could they make use of him? Well if they are desirous of information on Dany, then yes Jorah has value to the ruling junta.

Now, back to the main topic... I also believe that Eddard had a solid perception of the necessity and value of the NW. Eddard even told Catelyn that he thought he'd have to call his banners and march against Mance in a few years because the NW did not have the strength to do it themselves. It's just that he'd forgotten (like everyone else) that the Others are still out there and that they are the real threat.

BFS, in my opinion, is the elephant in the room. We're all waiting for Howland Reed because we know he possess the vital information that we desire. But Barristan was an intimate of Aerys II, Rhaegar, and Elia. He was in the Kingsguard. He was the one who personally rescued Aerys from the Darklyns. Aerys must have trusted Barristan as much as he trusted anyone. I think that Rhaegar trusted Barristan as much as he trusted anyone. Barristan and Jonothor Darry were entrusted with trying to salvage the remains of Connington's army after the Battle of the Bells and with trying to contain the Arryn/Baratheon/Stark/Tully host. Barristan, along with Darry and Prince Llewyn Martell, rode with Rhaegar to the Trident.

If Jaime knew the truth about the deaths of Rickard and Brandon Stark when Catelyn did not... If Jaime knew the truth about why Elia and her children were not allowed to flee to Dragonstone and Oberyn did not... If Jaime and Varys knew that Pycelle was the one to convince Aerys to let Tywin into King's Landing and yet Eddard did not know this... Then I don't think it's a far stretch to say that Barristan knew the details of Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna and the need for three of the Kingsguard to stay with her.

When Daenerys pardoned Barristan, at the end of ASOS, he volunteered to tell her all of the Targaryen family secrets. He especially wanted to tell her about Rhaegar, but Dany was not in the mood to also hear of her father's madness.

The big question is what does the title of this series mean? What is A Song of Ice and Fire? We think that Jon figures prominently into the title. Daenerys as well. But Jon's origins are still unclear... If Eddard is his father, then we don't know who Jon's mother is... The major union of Ice and Fire that is mentioned is the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna... but what ever became of it besides death and heartbreak? These things are still the great unknowns.

To keep this a secret, GRRM has gone to great lengths. He had to kill off Eddard. He has to keep Howland Reed out of sight. He has to keep Varys as a very shadowy figure. He has to keep Littlefinger occupied with the present and future. He had to never introduce Wylla. He had to make Benjen disappear. He made Jaime the one Kingsguard mistrusted by the Targaryens. He had to kill off Aemon, Tywin and Gregor as well. The previous deaths of Rickard, Brandon, Lyanna, Aerys, Elia, Ashara, Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower, Jonothor Darry, Llewyn Martell, Willem Darry, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, Ethan Glover, Mark Ryswell, and William Dustin were all necessary to maintain this secret.

Who alive might know the secret? Howland Reed, but we've never even glimpsed him. Varys, but his whereabouts are currently unknown. Pycelle, but I doubt that Rhaegar trusted him that much. Jon Connington, we've never seen him either... if he's still alive. This leaves Barristan Selmy. He knows the truth about Rhaegar and Lyanna, I'm convinced of it. He would also have known if she was pregnant when Rhaegar marched against Robert. But he probably does not know if Lyanna ever produced a child.

 

[Boaz]

After looking through the forum, I've decided this is the best thread for discussing the end of the series. You guys know I can be a tad long-winded so bear with me.

In the What We're Watching thread, TK brought up the LOST finale. And I'd like to apply lessons I learned from LOST to ASOIAF, if you don't mind. I'll avoid LOST spoilers for TK's sake.

I was highly disappointed with the LOST finale. I felt the ending was either the most unimaginative ever or gross proselytization. After building dynamic character interactions for numerous seasons, I felt the writers just quit.

So... what if I'd never seen the final season of LOST? What if I missed the final episode?

I enjoyed the first season of LOST the most. Yes, survivors of a plane crash on a seemingly deserted and haunted island is an intriguing setting, but it was the characters that drew me into the show. Jin and Sawyer quickly became my favorite characters. I hated Locke from the get go... especially after he used and abused Charlie. In my view, Michael was the Catelyn of LOST because he was completely reactive, was easily manipulated through his child, was living with lots of regret, and generally exemplified all of my own personal character flaws... When Jack, Sun, Eko, Sayid, Kate, Hurley, and Ben are added to the list, the character relationships were outstanding.

The story started with a bang and showed tremendous promise.

How would I feel if I did not know how LOST ended? I'd feel better than I feel now... Well, maybe not, but it gives me some perspective towards other years long series with character driven stories... namely A Song of Ice and Fire.

Which finally brings me to my point... How will I feel if I never know the ending of ASOIAF?

I absolutely love the Lannister boys. They're not not perfect. They're not even good guys. But they are compelling.

I love to hate Catelyn. I love to hate Cersei. I love to hate Lord Tywin. I love to hate Lord Walder. I love to hate Melisandre.

I don't like Sansa, Jon, Brienne, Bran, nor Sam, and yet their POV's are all fascinating and completely necessary (at least I think they are... they might be red herrings) to the resolution of the main plots.

If I never know the end, I'll be fine. I'm resolved to just enjoy the journey. The development of the characters and plots, not their resolution, is what will motivate my reading. I'm determined to love the mysteries for as long as they last.

 

[No One]

If I never know the end, I'll be fine. I'm resolved to just enjoy the journey. The development of the characters and plots, not their resolution, is what will motivate my reading. I'm determined to love the mysteries for as long as they last.

Very sweetly said. Obviously, I’ve speculated along with everyone else on certain elements, but I’ve never given much thought to how I would actually like the series to end. Like Boaz, I’m just happily strapped in, enjoying the ride.

If I did have to give an answer, I’d echo TK on this, who echoed Martin. Bittersweet sounds good, i.e: not unrealistically generous to the good guys (no worries there I think) or righteously damning of the bad.

One of the previous posts concerning the Unsullied being 'donated' to the Wall is a brilliant idea. I reckon the Wall is coming down though, so...

 

[Eulalia]

TK, full Lost episodes are available at the ABC website on line. Don't read the rest of my post unless you want opinion about the Lost finale.

Boaz, I think the story for Lost really changed gears. From implied, mysterious, impressionistic, and episodic to concrete and specific. It could have been a problem that the writers didn't have the end in mind as they were writing it...so ending it coherently may have been difficult. As you say, perhaps it wasn't necessary or the best choice! I thought they ended up with an okay solution, but clumsily done. They went mythic, or tried.

Yes, Boaz well put about the journey. I have no idea how GRRM will resolve timeline issues. Things are possible for, let's say, mid teen Arya, that are not possible if she is younger, without huge problems. Left to my own devices, I can imagine different scenarios. But it would take a lot to set them up.

Sansa, Sam, Jon, Bran, Brienne, all seem like people you meet everyday, except that they are in bizarre situations. I've known teens who seem like Sansa started out, and unlikeable girls that age are commonplace. I know a lot of artsy guys like Sam who are very likeable, who just aren't required to exhibit brutish leadership, or violence, and do very well. I know a woman who reminds me of Brienne, except that she is attractive and does not carry a sword, I believe. I think I've seen boys like Bran or Jon.

Sansa makes herself extra unlikeable by lying and dissembling constantly, unlike everyday, her betrayals have fatal consequences. Yet, I really like to know how she matures having had disasterous and painful experiences. She could turn end up so many ways, and I really want to know what the master writer had planned!

And what the heck, it will bug me a lot if I don't know what Brienne says, whether Jon and Dany have a romance, if Littlefinger gets his, if Bran and Hodor meld, if Arya clears her list, and how Jaime and Tyrion end up. Who will end up sitting the Iron Throne and how will they defeat the Others. But I'll live. I just want the next installment of the Song, soon, pretty please.

Yes, I would rather not know, then have GRRM cheese out.

 

[Boaz]

Eulalia, good post. I agree about Sansa, Sam, Jon, Bran and Brienne... and I'd throw Arya and Dany into that mix because they all start their POVs as innocents. Yet, Arya, Dany, and Jon have grown up the quickest. I think it's fun to watch and guess how they'll all continue to grow and mature... especially since GRRM does not include any innocent adults in the story. The closest he comes to giving us innocent adults are Robert, Eddard, and Arys... and look how long they lasted! These innocent adults (Robert is an alcoholic and a wife beater, Eddard is a man of deep secrets, and Arys is an oathbreaker) show how jaded, manipulative, or just plain corrupt the rest of the adults are.

In their POVs, Jaime, Tyrion, Cersei, and Catelyn reveal their former innocence and how they became who they are now. Will Sansa become the next Cersei? Will Sam become the new Tyrion?

And as for non-POV children, we saw how Robb and Joffrey fared... one innocent and one monster. I am interested to see how Margaery, Podrick, Tommen, Gendry, Sarella, and Missandei devlop.

On a side note, I am not too interested in Theon. Sure, all train wrecks are fascinating for a few moments, but in the end Theon is just the Willy Lowman of Westeros.

 

[Symphinity]

Hopefully one that includes a huge battle of all the humans against the white walkers.

 

[Army]

The end of the institution of the Iron Throne for one.

 

[All Men Must Die]

I just hope the people that deserve to die are killed off in a way that people will remember for hundreds of years. Like the Freys those SOBs. I hope the whole line of Freys are killed and the castle destroyed. The Boltons as well.

 

[Tywin]

It's the idea that eventually the nasty people will get what's coming to them that keeps many of us turning pages.

Interesting that the Lannisters didn't make your list.