House Greyjoy

[Young Wolf]

I've been searching through the threads and it seems that there haven't been alot of discussion about what's happening with House Greyjoy. Since they basically control the seas around Westeros, they will be an important part of AFFC and future books. How do you think they will figure into future plotlines, who do you think will become the next ruler of the Iron Islands and how do you think each candidate will react to the return of Daenerys Targeryon?

(Also, on a side note, I may be late in figuring this out, but does anyone else think that Patchface is the youngest of Balon's brothers, the one who supposedly drowned?)

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Well I know who the next leader of House Greyjoy is (GRRM put it on a short novella called Arms of the Kraken which appeared in Dragon magazine issue 305).
How long he/she remains in charge is up for debate mind you.

I think the Iron Islands will probably go one of 2 ways: either try to consolidate their hold on the North or raid up and down the west coast of the seven kingdoms - causing House Redwyne no end of grief.

As for how they react when Dany turns up - depends when and depends what state they're in I suppose. They don't seem currently inclined to be anything other than independent and back to the old ways of pillaging so far.

Also Patchface was a minstrel from the Free Cities - Stannis & Robert's dad brought him back to try and cheer Stannis up! Instead they watched from Storm's End as their parents perished!

I'm pretty certain that GRRM's not got any 'long-lost' son plans - except possibly Theon who maybe is being held by Ramsay Bolton at Winterfell?
Better him than me!

 

[Young Wolf]

I don't think the Greyjoys have any hold on the north. Asha and Victarion Greyjoy, who both held strategic positions in the north (The neck and Moat Cailin), left to stake their claim for the throne of the Iron Islands. By the way, why did Stannis need to be cheered up? I don't recall the passage that tells of patchface's origins but I'm still suspicous as to why Stannis' daughter has a disease that runs in the Greyjoy family, and I remember Renly speaking of a rumor that patchface is her father.

 

[cercar]

Well from the sample chapter on Martin's Website it looks like their's gonig to be a kingsmoot to decide the rightfull king of the Iron Islands. We know that Damphair will not except the job, Theon is basically out because he's either captured, dead, or has no respect from the iron men. Asha cannot rule despite how fit she is because she is a women. That leaves either Euron Crow's Eye who has returned to take the throne or Victorian who is in charge of the iron fleet. I say that Euron is disliked and mistrusted so he shouldn't be able to hold the throne if Victarion throws in his claim. However it looks like the kingsmoot will decide and my money's on victarion pulling ahead there.

 

[Young Wolf]

Well from the sample chapter on Martin's Website it looks like their's gonig to be a kingsmoot to decide the rightfull king of the Iron Islands. We know that Damphair will not except the job, Theon is basically out because he's either captured, dead, or has no respect from the iron men. Asha cannot rule despite how fit she is because she is a women. That leaves either Euron Crow's Eye who has returned to take the throne or Victorian who is in charge of the iron fleet. I say that Euron is disliked and mistrusted so he shouldn't be able to hold the throne if Victarion throws in his claim. However it looks like the kingsmoot will decide and my money's on victarion pulling ahead there.

Cercar, what exactly is a kingsmoot? And why would Victarion be the favorite to win? I'm rooting for the Crow's Eye myself, only because since the hound, the mountain and Jaime aren't that capable anymore, there seems to be a need for a real imposing villain.

 

[cercar]

As it is described in the sample chapter on Martin's page a kingsmoot is a gathering of all the ironmen to choose their own king. Damphair calls this meeting so that the ironmen can return to their original heritage of choosing the most worthy king and not following the soft greenland rules of succession. Secondly I favor Victarion because he commands the army, he can command the peoples loyalty better than Eurion, and he is a man which means he has precedent over asha. I agree that Eurion will likely play a large part in AFFC and he will be another great villian in the story. However Victarion is currently in the best posistion to control the throne but with the way Martin writes theres no real way of telling who will win the throne.

 

[Raven]

Just a note: the Greyjoys control only the seas to the West of Westeros, and even then their control of anything south of Casterly Rock is dubious. If the Redwyne fleet sailed back from the East, the Greyjoys would be unable to exert any power even that far.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

I get the impression that the Redwyne fleet alone may not be able to cope with the Ironmen if they seriously began to raid - a lot of ships were destroyed on the Battle of the Breakwater - ships which were probably used in crushing Balon's rebellion the last time

 

[Raven]

The Redwyne fleet probably were used in Greyjoy's Rebellion, since the Lannister fleet was destroyed as one of the Greyjoy's first actions.

However, IIRC the Redwyne fleet was not used in the Blackwater. Most of the ships on both sides were from the Royal Fleet, or from the Dragonstone Lords, with one or two Lannister ships, I think. So the Redwyne fleet is still largely intact. And it is the largest fleet in Westeros.

Remember also that the Manderlys have been building a fleet for Robb... again, on the East coast, though. And the Lannister fleet has been partly rebuilt, probably enough to guard Lannisport, if not to extend power further up the coast.

Lastly, there must be other ships about. For example, although it hasn't been explicitly mentioned, the Mormonts must have some sort of patrol boats, given that they are supposed to guard against wildlings coming around the Wall by sea.

 

[Young Wolf]

Raven, though the Redwynes have numbers I don't think they can match the Greyjoys at sea, because that is where their strength lies. They'll win by superior tactics. None of the great houses can stand up to them at sea, depending on who wins the succession of course. I get the feeling that Euron is the best when it comes to leading a battle at sea, but may not be able to unify the Iron Islands under a single purpose like his brother Victarion. And no one should count out Asha as a candidate. The idea of women not being considered in successions is a green land idea after all. I think that when Dany returns with the dragons, if Asha or Victarion is in power, they would be more willing to fight her to the death, especially if the Prophet is able to spread his fanatacism for the Drowned God throughout the Iron Islands. The Crow's Eye, however, strikes me as someone who would cut a deal to stay in power.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

And no one should count out Asha as a candidate. The idea of women not being considered in successions is a green land idea after all.

Actually, the world GRRM has created seems very patriarchal in design. The only exception so far recorded appears to be House Mormont - and their only male 'heir' fled to Dany leaving them no choice in the matter.
The wild folk seem to be the only ones who judge on merit rather than birth or sex.

And I see Euron meeting a messy, bloody end after wreaking havoc for a book & a half

Asha, if she's smart, just needs to keep her head down, bide her time, and she'll rule the Iron Islands yet...

 

[Raven]

Winters Sorrow: it's not just tactics and numbers, though - it's the size of the boats. Quoting from GRRM himself:

Yes, Lord Tywin certainly replaced the ships that were lost (in Greyjoy's rebellion). However, as far as naval power goes, the only fleets comparable to that of the Greyjoys are the royal fleet (most of it destroyed on the Blackwater) and the Redwyne fleet, based on the Arbor. Besides the king, the Greyjoys and Redwynes are the traditional sea powers of Westeros.

The lords whose lands abut the coast of the Sunset Sea all keep a war galley or three about for coastal defense, and of course those shores are home to scads of fishing boats as well. The Lannisters have a larger and much grander fleet, but we're still only talking about twenty to thirty ships, perhaps. To fight a major battle, they would call the ships of their various bannermen, just as Stannis summoned the lords of the narrow sea for the battle on the Blackwater.

For what it's worth, however, their ships would be larger and more formidable than the longships of the ironmen -- cogs, carracks, and war galleys of various sides, up to the great dromonds with scorpions and catapults on deck.

The Tyrells are in more or less the same position as the Lannisters, though they depend even more on their bannermen, especially the lords of the Shield Islands off the mouth of the Mander. The Hightowers have only a few warships, but control Oldtown, home to numerous trading vessels.

In brief, though... the Iron Islands can float a lot more than a hundred ships. Each of the major lords probably commands that many. However, it is important to remember that the longships are smaller and simpler than the fleets that Joffrey and Stannis warred with on the Blackwater. The former are Viking longboats, more or less; for the latter, think Venetian/Byzantine dromonds of war.

From http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/SSM02a.html


So, the Greyjoys have a numerical advantage, but smaller boats.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Raven, It was Young Wolf who mentioned Tactics & numbers - I just said the Redwynes alone were unlikely to be able to combat the Iron Islanders - especially as the Islanders are more designed for hit & run raids and not stand up fights like the Breakwater.

The raiders will tend to avoid the larger cities and merely raid up & down the coasts and evading the larger (and, I'm guessing, slower) ships as they try to engage them.

Basically they'll more than likely act as a distraction for the (currently victorious) Houses and could weaken them for either the Other's or Dany's invasion force when they arrive!

p.s. does anyone else think the North is basically stuffed? If the Boltons & Freys don't execute every northern noble left, the Other's will swarm down and do the job for them!!

 

[Young Wolf]

****Spoiler***







Winter's Sorrow, though GRRM's world is patriarchal, it seems to me that with the death of Tywin and several of the kings in Westeros, the two most powerful characters are women: Dany and Cersei. Even before the death of the kings, Dany's rise to power was staggering.

 

[Young Wolf]

Raven, It was Young Wolf who mentioned Tactics & numbers - I just said the Redwynes alone were unlikely to be able to combat the Iron Islanders - especially as the Islanders are more designed for hit & run raids and not stand up fights like the Breakwater.

The raiders will tend to avoid the larger cities and merely raid up & down the coasts and evading the larger (and, I'm guessing, slower) ships as they try to engage them.

Basically they'll more than likely act as a distraction for the (currently victorious) Houses and could weaken them for either the Other's or Dany's invasion force when they arrive!

p.s. does anyone else think the North is basically stuffed? If the Boltons & Freys don't execute every northern noble left, the Other's will swarm down and do the job for them!!

***spoiler



The men of the Iron Islands seem to be returning to the old ways, therefore their fighting style will become more bold. If they fight under the banner of the Drowned God, they'll be that much fiercer. No man fights as hard as the man fighting for his god. The north does seem to be quite defeated, especially with no apparent heirs to house Stark. As far as anybody knows, Ned's trueborn children are all dead. I do think that their saving grace may be Stannis, who might decide to fortify the north against the coming invasion of Others. Jon may be able to negotiate an alliance with the wildings under the command of Tormund and take back the north. I also think that Jeyne Westerling is pregnant with the heir to house Stark.

 

[Raven]

WS: Sorry, I mixed you two up.

I wouldn't count on larger ships being slower as a rule, but you're right that the Ironborn will stick to what they know- hit hard and fast, avoid big battles.

Anyway, getting back to the original point, do we all agree that the Ironborn are not able to exert total naval control of even the West coast of Westeros?

 

[cercar]

The iron born may be able to control the seas for a while, possibly through an entire book but they will fall .

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Oof, there are too many good points to follow up on here!

Okay, as far as the women in command thing goes, I'll have to agree with the Young Wolf; Dany's return will most likely herald a new age for women, as far as power is concerned. I wouldn't be surprised if the Kingsmoot went in Asha's favor. In addition, Cersei is only as powerful as the men who support her; Jaime is no longer "on her side," and her father is dead. I think that from now on she'll be more of a figurehead, and will not wield as much power as she used to.

As for Patchface, he was brought over from the Free Cities by Stannis's father, because Stannis was always a rather grim child, and needed cheering up. Patchface was a very clever and normal jester, until the ships crashed just beyond the castle. Apparently Patchface was the only survivor.

I can't really get too involved with the argument regarding the Ironmen vs. the landlubbers. However, I believe that Tyrion showed us that cleverness and good tactics can win over size and numbers in a battle.

 

[Young Wolf]

Arya, that's a good point about Cersei, however couldn't the same thing be said about the men in GRRM's world? As far as she becoming a figurehead is concerned, I think she would rather make love to Robert's corpse. More than anything else she craves power and will defend it rabidly. I do think that she overestimates herself and underestimates others, which may lead to her downfall. She certainly will have one of the more interesting plotlines in AFFC.

 

[Young Wolf]

I agree that the Ironborn will eventually meet their end, possibly in a glorious battle against Dany's dragons. Dying at sea is an honor for them. Afterall, "What is dead can never die" but rises again and is much stronger. Because of the dragons, there is now magical power in the world. Therefore, if the Drowned God is as powerful as Rhllor and the Other God, it's possible we may see an army of Iron born raised up from the dead. We see a ritualized version of this in Aeron Greyjoy's chapter, but those men were never really dead to begin with.