House Greyjoy

[cercar]

In a Storm of Swords it was mentioned that a ship (I don't remember whose) was pulled down by a kraken. Perhaps this Kraken is a servant of the drowned god who will fight alongside the iron born against the kind or the redwynes. Imagine how unstopable the Iron Fleet would be if the enemy ships were being pulled down from below the water.

Also I'm not sure that a women like Dany coming into power would be enough to upset the patriarchial ideas of Westeros. The laws do allow for women to rule if their is not a higher ranking male in line so it's not like they can't rule, although they are usually married soon after. We need to keep in mind that Westeros is a sexist society, look at how brienne was received as a night despite her skill at the joust and swordsmanship. Despite Dany's strength and that she will take the kingdom back she can't undo hundreds of years of prejudice.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Also I'm not sure that a women like Dany coming into power would be enough to upset the patriarchial ideas of Westeros. The laws do allow for women to rule if their is not a higher ranking male in line so it's not like they can't rule, although they are usually married soon after. We need to keep in mind that Westeros is a sexist society, look at how brienne was received as a night despite her skill at the joust and swordsmanship. Despite Dany's strength and that she will take the kingdom back she can't undo hundreds of years of prejudice.

I understand what you're saying here, but I guess I should clarify my earlier comments by adding that, while there certainly wouldn't be an immediate acceptance of women in power, I'm sure that Dany wouldn't hesitate to shake things up a bit in Westeros. I think she may use her power to ensure that women can inherit the titles by order of birth, and not according to whether there are males left to inherit. Just a thought...

PS- I love the idea of Krakens being on the side of the Ironmen.

 

[Rane Longfox]

Indeed, a pretty stridently feminist queen with a truckload of dragons behind her is gonna change a lot of people's views

 

[Young Wolf]

Indeed, a pretty stridently feminist queen with a truckload of dragons behind her is gonna change a lot of people's views

A truckload of Dragons and a very, very big army as well. Daenerys' coming will have an even greater impact than when the first Targeryons showed up.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Hee hee, a "truckload" of dragons. That's darn funny.

 

[Young Wolf]

Hee hee, a "truckload" of dragons. That's darn funny.

Speaking of funny, I think that GRRM doesn't get enough credit for his sense of humor. We all say that he has great characters and deftly weaves many different plotlines together, but not enough is said about how funny he is. There were times while reading a Tyrion chapter that I would laugh out loud at one of his sly remarks and people on the train would look at me like I was strange. I think that George is probably a great guy to hang out and have a beer with.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Tyrion is what one might call a 'gut-buster.' Especially upon re-reading, I have found him to be exceedingly funny.

I like that you mentioned laughing out loud. Often while reading GRRM's books, I have been known to shout my dismay at something or laugh out loud and I have definitely received my share of annoyed/confused looks.

 

[Young Wolf]

I agree, you certainly can't read GRRM at your local library. One can get banned for life.

 

[mercury]

the subject of inheritance in the north was mentioned earlier, as I recall there was a fake arya that was brought to the north by steel shanks- boltons captain of guards to marry ramsy bolton (used to be a snow). because the armies of ferry and lanister are backing the boltons there will be no objection in the south. However the boltons should face the umbars, karstarks and all the other supporters of the fallen starks. Add to that the armies of staniss on the wall. this could get real ugly real fast.....and winter is coming....

 

[Young Wolf]

the subject of inheritance in the north was mentioned earlier, as I recall there was a fake arya that was brought to the north by steel shanks- boltons captain of guards to marry ramsy bolton (used to be a snow). because the armies of ferry and lanister are backing the boltons there will be no objection in the south. However the boltons should face the umbars, karstarks and all the other supporters of the fallen starks. Add to that the armies of staniss on the wall. this could get real ugly real fast.....and winter is coming....

Mercury, I don't know if the dreadlord Roose has enough military or political power to hold the north. Thousands of years of skinning people alive certainly hasn't made the Boltons any friends. Also, the Karstarks may not be supporting the Starks after Rob beheaded thier lord. You are right about the north becoming messy though. Throw in hordes of Wildings and Giants, who I think Stannis will let into the Gift lands, and the North will be a Feast for Crows.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I agree with you there, Young Wolf, but I do think that Mercury has a point. The Boltons have the fake Arya, who would be the only living heir left. She is the key to securing the fealty of those lords who previously swore to follow Robb. The question is, would any of them be able to recognize Arya? I think the Boltons are treading on thin ice with that scheme, especially given their bloody past.


Lets hope that the Northerners remember that Winter is coming and keep their farming tools sharp!

 

[Young Wolf]

Someone mentioned in another thread how important Howland Reed will be in AFFC. As a close friend of Arya's father, he may be the one to reveal the fake Arya.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Good point, but has Howland ever met Arya?

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

He's a close friend of Ned Stark so it stands to reason he may have visited Winterfell in the past (although Bran doesn't seem to know much about him)

I have a feeling that Jon Snow may get dragged into the mess in Winterfell as I can't see the new "Lord of the North" being very pleased at the idea of Ned's son being nearby, oath or no oath. Not to mention that surviving Northlords may rally to him anyway - even if they end up being auxillaries in the wall to begin with.

What I would like to know is; what happened to Robb's wife? Is she still with the Blackfish? If so, she has Robb's heir and therefore the true heir of Winterfell anyway

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

What I would like to know is; what happened to Robb's wife? Is she still with the Blackfish? If so, she has Robb's heir and therefore the true heir of Winterfell anyway

Hmmm. I think she's still with the Blackfish. I'm sure that will be answered early in the next book. I suppose that if Jeyne Westerling is pregnant, she carries the heir of Winterfell, but that goes back to the old argument of sex determining the heir. I have a question of my own, in that case- if Jeyne Westerling is carrying a girl, would that child still be the heir of Winterfell, or would it go to Sansa, as it is largely believed that Bran and Rickon are dead?

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Well, if it followed western medieval traditions, the Lordship would pass to the surviving male heir - if Robb & Jeyne had a son he would be heir to Winterfell, if a girl, then Bran and then Rickon would inherit.
Should this girl of Robb's later father a male heir he would in theory inherit should Bran or Rickon have no children.
Confusing, huh?
Of course, this was a primary reason why there were so many instances of new rulers killing all their cousins to ensure no threat to the throne!

 

[Raven]

Young Wolf: when Meera and Jojen arrive at Winterfell in ACOK, Bran thinks that he has never seen a crannogman before, though Ned had sent letters to Howland over the years. There are also other references to the fact that the crannogmen are not expected to attend the feast, since they don't do so as a rule.

I'd say, therefore, it's almost certain that Howland has never met Arya.

Theon, OTOH, would certainly recognise Arya - and indeed Jeyne Poole, who many believe is the 'fake Arya'. And Theon is at the Dreadfort, albeit not likely at present to be meeting Ramsay's bride, or telling anybody about it afterwards if he did.

I would imagine the purpose of the 'fake Arya' marriage is exactly the same as the Lady Hornwood marriage. At most, Ramsay will wait until 'Arya' provides him with a 'Stark-blood' heir, and then -

Jeyne Stark/Westerling is with the Blackfish in Riverrun. If she is pregnant, her child (of whatever sex) comes before Sansa and/or Arya. (It has even been suggested that if Jeyne were to get pregnant now, the child could be passed off as Robb's by loyal Northmen.) An excellent reason for the Lannisters and Boltons to want Jeyne dead. Tying off a loose end, so to speak.

The situation gets really complicated once Jon comes into the equation. Jon would certainly recognise Arya and Jeyne Poole. Not only that, but Sam knows that Rickon and Bran are still alive. What happens if Jon realises that 'Arya' is not Arya? If he does not, will he try to rescue his 'sister', or will he stick by his duty? If he decides to rescue her, will Sam try to dissuade him by telling him about Bran and Rickon, and what will Jon do then? So many variables.

 

[Jinglehopper]

The situation gets really complicated once Jon comes into the equation. Jon would certainly recognise Arya and Jeyne Poole. Not only that, but Sam knows that Rickon and Bran are still alive. What happens if Jon realises that 'Arya' is not Arya? If he does not, will he try to rescue his 'sister', or will he stick by his duty? If he decides to rescue her, will Sam try to dissuade him by telling him about Bran and Rickon, and what will Jon do then? So many variables.

**Spoilers**(but so is this whole thread so who's counting)

LOL. This makes my brain hurt. There are indeed so many possibilities, that it's almost pointless to speculate. Almost .

I think that the flayed men of the Dreadfort will indeed rule the North for a time. But they will hold it as long as Theon. Does anyone remember what happened to the host of Robb after the Red Wedding? Are the KarStarks in charge or the Umbers? Or were they smashed to oblivion and scattered? I find it hard to believe that an army that size disappeared and I think they are the key to the North. It doesn't matter who holds Winterfell, it's who holds the loyalty of the army. I don't think many of the Stark bannermen will flock to Roose Bolton. I know he has an army of his own but I don't think it's as large as Robb's was. (man, I have to reread before AFFC)

 

[Young Wolf]

You've got alot of good points there Raven, except that I could have sworn reading that Jeyne Poole was given to Ilyn Payne to do what he does best. Also, Jon will certainly be pulled into the succession, but he already turned down a sweet offer from Stannis, so he'll stay out of it. Jinglehopper, all of Rob's men went back to their lands and took their armies with them. There's also alot of free roaming bands of deserters in the area.

 

[Raven]

Y-Wolf: you misremember. Jeyne was actually given to Littlefinger to dispose of. The thinking is that he socked her away until she might prove useful.

'Fake Arya' recognises Jaime from seeing him at WF, is about the right age (a year or two older than Arya), and looks Northern. All these things fit Jeyne Poole.