House Greyjoy

[AryaUnderfoot]

**Spoilers**(but so is this whole thread so who's counting)It doesn't matter who holds Winterfell, it's who holds the loyalty of the army. I don't think many of the Stark bannermen will flock to Roose Bolton. I know he has an army of his own but I don't think it's as large as Robb's was. (man, I have to reread before AFFC)

I'll have to agree with you about Roose Bolton (slime that he is). Since he was present at the Red Wedding, and obviously involved- after all, he is married to a Frey- there's little doubt in my mind that Robb's faithful followers will reject him as a leader. With that in mind, I'll bet that if the Boltons gain power in the North, the ones to bring them down will be those loyal Northerners who followed Robb.

 

[Jeroam]

What are you guys talking about? It's like I'm reading a different book.

Jeyne Westerling/Stark is not pregnant. Could not be pregnant. Do you not remember the tea? The tansy herb tea her mother makes for her? Tywin telling Tyrion some battles are won with spear and sword, some are won with paper and quill. The whole thing was a set up. Jeyne didn't know, but mommy dearest made it happen. When Tommen is signing papers and putting the seal in the wax, his favorite part, one of those is to confirm the Westerling's in their lands. Jeyne may be with the Blackfish at Riverrun, but she'll go home with her mother to the Crag, not to Winterfell.
And Bolton? Totally out to kill the Starks from the beginning. After all that you've read about Roose Bolton, do you truly believe that there was anything that happens at the Dreadfort without his knowledge? You think some ******* just shows up while dad is away South, that the household guard of the Dreadfort would have followed someone they didn't know, without orders, to sack Winterfell? Bolton may have fell into an alliance with Tywin through Vargo Hoat on the fly, that was a bit of improv on his part, but he was waiting for Rob to make that little mistake and be ready to pounce on it for sure. My question is why didn't Rob realize it when Roose sent a third of his foot to Duskendale to be slaughtered?
And the Frey's. Walder was waiting for the mistake as well. If Ned had still been alive, if it had been he, the Lord Eddard Stark commanding the Army of the North instead of Robb and Catelyn, do you think Walder Frey would have bartered for marriage contracts and fosterings? I thinks nots. The Late Lord Frey would have known his place.
Jeyne Poole as the fake Arya? No way, not a chance, far too risky. You're going to tell me that Poole has just forgotten all about Sansa and Arya and what the queen did to her? The fake Arya comes from wherever it is Varys finds little birds. Poole was sold and on the other side of the narrow sea never to be heard from again.
One more thing, actually, please allow me to return to topic. House Greyjoy is more than capable of conquering and holding large chunks of Westeros. Before the Targaryen's, the iron born ruled the riverlands and most of the central island from Harrenhal. Sea power. Fast and mobile, they already hold those key positions in the North. If you were Tywin Lannister, how better to deal with the renegade Trident than to give that territory back to the iron born in exchange for Greyjoy's recognition of Bolton's rights in the North? Or, some such devious whatever might have been if those characters hadn't been killed off. I don't know, this has been a long rant. My vote is that Pike is capable of massing a much larger force than you've given it credit for. When Pike enters it will make a big splash. Maybe not as big as when Dorne finally weighs in, but Asha will have her day.

 

[Jay]

Jeyne Poole as the fake Arya? No way, not a chance, far too risky. You're going to tell me that Poole has just forgotten all about Sansa and Arya and what the queen did to her? The fake Arya comes from wherever it is Varys finds little birds. Poole was sold and on the other side of the narrow sea never to be heard from again.

I'm sorry but this is common knowledge not a theory, from Westero.org, that collects facts:

http://www.westeros.org/Heraldry/Poole-Spoilers.html

I disagree with the whole line of thinking that Frey was bent on treachery from the begining, Frey is opportunistic, nothing more, and House Frey held there end of the original bargain, and did so with honor, until Rob, in his stupididty dishonored House Frey. Ned would have done no different to cross the twins, Rob was not in a positon of power, he had to be allowed to cross the twins. Tywin would have marched on him and with the Freys shattered the host right there if Rob decided not to join the Freys. I don't this was a case of the Freys selling Rob out, as much as it was them getting even for Rob dishonoring them, when they held true to their end. Frey wanted his grandson to be a King, and until Rob broke his word I think he was content with that, no evidence suggets House Frey didn't live up to there end of the bargain, in fact it is stated many times how valiantly House Frey aided Rob. Rob lost the war when he married Jeyne Westerling, it was a moronic decison, made by a boy, not a King. He traded 20,000 loyal swords for woman in a time of war, thats when he lost the war, and ultimately his life.

(edited for horrendous spelling errors)

 

[Jeroam]

I'll believe it when George writes it in the book. Westeros.org is good, very good, the best out there, no doubt, but I wouldn't take all of it as gospel.

Holy crazy edits Batman! First there was a line, and now there's a paragraph. You make an excellent point on that, I was far too harsh on the Freys. I do think Ned would've struck a much different deal than what Catelyn ended up with. But then again, when did Walda get married off to Roose? Did Roose recruit Walder, the marriage sealing the deal, or did Walder cut a deal with Tywin unaware of Bolton's betrayal? Lots of little timing questions, all of it academic.

 

[Raven]

Jeroam: well, the problem with Varys acquiring a fake Jeyne from the other side of the Narrow Sea (which is where the birds come from) is that such a girl wouldn't look (or, importantly, sound) in the least like a Northerner. Not to mention that there were probably dozens of King's Landing girls who would do the job just as well, so why bother?

OTOH, Jeyne Poole is very, very familiar with the Stark family and this would lend verisimilitude (hope I spelled that right ) to the scheme. She would know, for example, the names of the Stark retainers and family, and the layout of Winterfell. Plus, as stated above, she had a Northern look and accent.

On the Freys: we need to remember the original agreement between Frey and Cat was made when Robb was heir to a great lord, not a king in his own right. So I think Frey's offence was not so much at no longer being grandfather to a king, but at the broken promise.

We know Walder is sensitive to slights, especially those touching on the fact that his House is seen as inferior to less powerful but older Houses - like the Westerlings, in fact. His perception of the situation was probably that Robb felt he could set the Freys aside because they weren't important, because they weren't an old House.

I like to think that Ned would have had enough sense to do as Cat did, and humble himself to get past Walder. Remember, the whole reason Walder allied with the Starks rather than the Lannisters was that Tywin 'never asked' for his allegiance, and Walder resented this. (He also makes some choice remarks about how 'puffed up' Tywin is.) The one way guaranteed to set Frey against you is to suggest, or imply, that he should 'know his place'.

 

[Jay]

But then again, when did Walda get married off to Roose? Did Roose recruit Walder, the marriage sealing the deal, or did Walder cut a deal with Tywin unaware of Bolton's betrayal? Lots of little timing questions, all of it academic

.

If I am understaning your question correctly, the Bolton/Frey marriage was sealed well before (remember he mentioned to Jamie at Harrenal before a deal is in place with Tywin. The marriage was done as a deal regarding the original deal with House Frey (remember he mentioned to Jamie he took the bride that weighed the most because Frey made her dowry her weight in gold). if I' am misinterpiting what your trying to convey, I apologize BTW

Another important aspect that was mentioned concerning Jeyne is pointed out by Sansa, and I think it bears mentioning. Remember as Beric was arriving at King Landing for the Hand tourney how Sansa said Jeyne fell in love with him on site? She also mentioned Jeyne would never be able to marry into a high station because of her lower birth. We don't know if this is something that Jeyne though about as she always shadowed Sansa (who was guranteed the high life due to her station and birth) and how it may, or admittedly may not have bothered her. It's not ground breaking, but I think it bears mentioning since Martin has proven to be quite careful with his dialogue. Jeyne had nothing left after Eddard was killed, becoming a fake Arya and going back to the North and potentially at a much higher rank wouln't seem that bad.

On the Freys: we need to remember the original agreement between Frey and Cat was made when Robb was heir to a great lord, not a king in his own right. So I think Frey's offence was not so much at no longer being grandfather to a king, but at the broken promise

.

Raven I grant you that, but enough time had passed, and enough battles fought between Rob taking the Mantle of King of the North I think to for Frey to seriously get used to the notion he would be a grandfather to kings (this is exactly Cayelyn's thought to in SoS as well when she talks to Rob about how to win back the Freys)

BTW great discussion all)

 

[Culhwch]

I think that the flayed men of the Dreadfort will indeed rule the North for a time. But they will hold it as long as Theon. Does anyone remember what happened to the host of Robb after the Red Wedding? Are the KarStarks in charge or the Umbers? Or were they smashed to oblivion and scattered? I find it hard to believe that an army that size disappeared and I think they are the key to the North. It doesn't matter who holds Winterfell, it's who holds the loyalty of the army. I don't think many of the Stark bannermen will flock to Roose Bolton. I know he has an army of his own but I don't think it's as large as Robb's was. (man, I have to reread before AFFC)

From memory (which I'll admit is a little shaky; I am in the process of rereading but am still on ACoK): Those soldiers with Robb were slaughtered by the Freys and Bolton's men. I think the remainder of his troops at or around Riverrun were under the command of the Blackfish, who I think (and hope) will have a large role in what is to come. Many, especially the levies of peasants, will probably have scattered at the news of Robb's demise, thinking the war lost, but the career soldiers - knights and guardsmen and what-not - would still probably hold true. There was also a force under Maege Mormont and someone - a Glover or Mallister, I think - seeking the aid of Howland Reed to take back the neck from the Ironborn.

I think Brynden Tully will want to revenge himself on the Freys, but will be too smart to try anything with Edmure a captive. He is pretty much Lord of the Riverlands now in all but name - I don't see the river lords flocking to the Freys now they're in bed with the Lannisters. Perhaps he will strike south or west against the Lannisters...

If Lady Mormont's force retakes Moat Cailin, it means they can fairly well hold off Bolton's force from returning North. In AGoT it was said that Moat Cailin could be held for a long time with only a handfull of men, so perhaps Mormont can lead the majority of her force - bolstered by crannogmen, Manderly men out of White Harbour, and other loyal Northerners - against the Dreadfort. Or they might even sally south against Bolton and Frey, with the Blackfish taking them in the rear.

 

[Raven]

Culhwch: you memory is a little faulty, I think.

Maege Mormont was with Galbart Glover on the way to Greywater Watch, but she has no real force with her: they took only two longships. She might get to Greywater Watch, but the crannogmen are no army. They're guerrilla fighters at best.

Also, many of the Riverlords are hostage - or have switched their allegiance to the Lannisters. Lords Bracken, Mooton, Piper, Vance and Goodbrook all bent the knee. Meanwhile, the Blackfish has only enough men to guard Riverrun. Besides, he is besieged there by Lannister forces. So there's no prospect of relief from the Riverlands.

As for Frey, well, it's Littlefinger who's Lord Paramount of the Trident - technically, the Riverlords answer to him. Of course, he may have trouble enforcing that.

Jeroam: had to check this before I got back to you. GRRM has been cagey about how many men the Ironborn can field, but the best estimate is that they can field about half what Dorne, the North, the Lannisters, or the Riverlords can field, slightly less - about 20,000 men, almost all foot.

Now, since 20,000 of the Northmen's host at least have been scattered or killed, that means the Ironborn can probably control large chunks of the North. Bolton will certainly have his problems: he can probably raise no more than 10,000 loyal men at present, with about the same number of Stark loyalists like the Umbers, Manderlys and Mormonts, though the latter group will be scattered and won't have a single commander.

For the rest of Westeros, though, the Lannisters and Tyrells have fully 100,000 men under arms. The Ironborn can't compete.

 

[Young Wolf]

For the rest of Westeros, though, the Lannisters and Tyrells have fully 100,000 men under arms. The Ironborn can't compete.

Raven, your right that the Ironborn can't compete, if and only if the prize is absolute power, and I don't think that this is the case. They'll raid the coast lines and disrupt trade, and they may even strike inland through the rivers, which I think will be a successful tactic. Therefore, the amount of foot soldiers the Tyrells and Lannisters have will be almost irrelevant.

Another reason why I think the Greyjoys shouldn't be underestimated is that most of the other great houses have fought each other to a stalemate and will be afraid to take the war to the Iron Islands for fear of reprisal from each other once they have sent their armies off. Because of the speed of the Iron men's ships, this is the best way to defeat them. After all, you can't kill what you can't catch. Also, let's not forget about the knights of the Vale. We haven't seen them in action yet, but they are supposedly the best group in the realm. Technically they now belong to Littlefinger and I think he'll find a way to control them through the young lord Robert Arryn.

 

[Brian G Turner]

And to return to another great point:

In a Storm of Swords it was mentioned that a ship (I don't remember whose) was pulled down by a kraken. Perhaps this Kraken is a servant of the drowned god who will fight alongside the iron born against the kind or the redwynes. Imagine how unstopable the Iron Fleet would be if the enemy ships were being pulled down from below the water.

Considering the issue of "wargs" in the North and the Stark connection with the direwolves, I'd say this would look like a great potential plot device.

Especially that longships - so far as I understand it - are not built for sea combat, and primarily people carriers with the ability to strike fast and hard and with surprise.

However, if you then throw a kraken in as an organised part of the Ironmen force, then you turn them into a very formidable naval aversity indeed.

Also, as an aside point, it's always been a curious mystery as to why Patchface is as he is. Somehow, there's the implication that he saw something under the sea that scared the pants off him. The sight of a kraken could be a very interesting fit to that puzzle.

 

[Boaz]

I had a thought about Theon today while posting on YS's Dullest Sword thread. I could not find a Theon thread, so I'm posting here.

The Ironborn ruled the Riverlands when Aegon conquered six of the Seven Kingdoms. They were replaced by Aegon with the Tullys. The Greyjoys were then subservient to the Tullys.

Why was Theon given to Eddard? Why was Theon not given to Hoster, his liege lord? Yes, Robert led the army. Yes, Ned was his best friend. But giving Theon to Eddard is tantamount to a "no confidence" vote against Hoster Tully... mayhaps this is valid since his own man rebelled and he needed the King's assistance to stop him. If so, then giving Theon to Hoster would help put him back in charge of the fractious river lords.

For me the answer is that having Theon betray the Starks and capture Winterfell makes for a better story.

 

[TK-421]

Well, maybe they were initially subservient to the Tullys but I believe it was clear that the Greyjoys would be subservient to no other house.

Having them subservient to another house also conflicts with the listing of the major houses at the back of the books: Targaryen, Stark, Lannister, Tully, Arryn, Martell, Tyrell, Baratheon and Greyjoy.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Yeah Boaz I dont think thats how it works. The Greyjoys still retained their dominion and seemingly their title so they probably werent under the fish's thumb so to speak.

But assuming yer Robert you take Theon as hostage for two reasons 1) As a hostage against the fathers later actions and 2) to become companions with children of a similar age so in the future the hostage can be returned to his homeland and act as an ally of some regard. Riverrun wouldnt have had children near Theons age so its not that much of a stretch to say Robert (with Edd and Jons counsel of course) elected to send the boy north to grow up in Robbs company. Im sure even Hoster agreed with the wisdom of that.

Theres several historical precedents for that but damned if I can think of one....so youll have to take my word for it

 

[Boaz]

But it's the Seven Kingdoms. Each former kingdom has a high Lord or Prince to govern it in the name of the King.

TK, I don't know where House Greyjoy fits into all of this, but my best guess is with the Riverlands and House Tully. I admit their placement is a gray area.

The North - House Stark
The Vale - House Arryn
The Riverlands - House Tully
The Westerlands - House Lannister
The Reach - House Tyrell
The Stormlands - House Baratheon
Dorne - House Martell

Also, the King appointed four men to command his armies. At the opening of AGOT, Tywin Lannsiter, Eddard Stark, and Jon Arryn are three of the four... I assume Prince Doran is the fourth.

Warden of the North - Eddard Stark. I think there is precedence for the Warden of the North to incorporate the Night's Watch into his army and command them in battle against the Wildlings.
Warden of the East - Jon Arryn. He would command Tully, Baratheon, and Martell troops if they were called up to support him.
Warden of the West - Tywin Lannister. He would command Tyrell and Tully troops if they were sent to support him.
Warden of the South - Doran Martell? He would command any Baratheon and Tyrell troops sent to him... I wonder how the Tyrells would take this.

Now if we don't know where House Greyjoy fits into all of this... while we do know where the Iron Islands are... easily accessible from the West and the North. We do know that one of Balon's sons died fighting at Lannisport or Casterly Rock itself... so Tywin would have gotten into the fight... i.e. the Warden of the West was fighting the Greyjoys. We also know that Eddard was there... Mayhaps in addition to loving battle, Robert went to command his army and avoid bloodshed and competition between the Lion and the Wolf.

Again, if I recall correctly, the Iron King of the Iron Islands and the Riverlands either knelt before Aegon or was killed in battle. When this happened, the Tullys were made lords of the Riverlands... perhaps the Greyjoys were bumped into a political nether zone.

Either way the Ironborn were subservient to the Targaryens because as we learned in the last century Air Power defeats Naval Power. If the Greyjoys can command at sea and if there are no dragons, then they are safe to be their own kingdom. But when an enemy can easily bypass their fleets and attack them in their own homes, they must either surrendur or die.

I have no reckoning of the King of the Vale submitting to the Targaryens. I remember it being said that a dozen armies shattered themselves against the Eyrie during the Age of Heroes. But like the Greyjoys, the Arryns natural defenses are useless against dragons... I suspect that's why they joined Aegon.

Edit: Back to the Lannister-Greyjoy conflict...

We know Tywin's viciousness. If Robert had left him alone to fight the Greyjoys, supported by Redwyne fleets, who knows how badly the Iron Islands would have suffered. If Tywin did not shrink from sacking his nation's capital, then what would he do to the strongholds of the Ironborn? He would have let Gregor murder Balon, Asha, Theon, Victarion, Aeron, and any other that appeared to have Greyjoy blood.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Ahh thats where you're getting confused Boaz. The Warden is a title, not a position (at least not in peacetime seemingly)...no taxes are levied to that position, he doesnt sit in judgement of those nobles.....In Neds case its unique because he literally rules like a king past the neck (thats said somewhere in the books) but as for the rest theres the minor houses who are all sworn and tithe to a major house and then theres the major houses who are all directly responsible to the king. The warden is a unique position that happens to go to a member of a house as opposed to being a given right of said house. Theres no reason Harry the Heir couldnt be named Warden of the East tomorrow if such was Joffreys whim but no one would pay him taxes, and he would no more be responsible for the eastern nobles than he was yesterday.

 

[Boaz]

I'm not a military guy and you are. So I know I'm treading on thin ice here.

I was not saying the Tullys, Baratheons, and Tyrells owe the Arryns, Lannisters and Martells anything or that they must be subservient. I'm saying if a State of War arises, it seems to me that the Warden is automatically the CinCNorth (South, East, or West). for example, in the Lannister-Greyjoy conflict i.e. Balon Greyjoy's rebellion the CinCWest (aka Warden of the West) commanded Lannister, Tully, and/or Tyrell troops in the theatre, until the King nominated himself.. but Robert could have nominated his Hand, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard or some other noble to prosecute the war.

As for houses sworn directly to the throne, I took those to be a few that happend to border the Blackwater and the KL district.

But I do think that a number of the Warden positions are hereditary. For instance the Arryns took great offense to Jaime Lannister being made Warden fo the East. It was their hereditary position and title. I cannot imagine anyone beside the Lord Stark or one of his brothers being Warden of the North since Aegon's conquest. Since, Aegon did not conquer Dorne, perhaps the Warden of the South has been a hereditary position for the Tyrells... or perhaps it has been a position given to the general most capable of keeping the Dornishmen down the Boneway.

If I'm wrong, please let everyone know the truth. But don't expect me to change my beliefs in light of the truth.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

I'm pretty sure House Greyjoy falls, if anywhere, under the auspices of the North. I think the back of one of the books it says "The North & the Iron Islands" and one point. So Ned would have been the logical choice for 'guardian' of Theon.

About the whole Riverlands thing. House Greyjoy never ruled the Riverlands it was King Harren the Black who ruled both the Iron Islands and the Riverlands. He was burned alive in Harrenhal by Aegon and the riverlands were given to Tully. I'm not sure how dominion of the Iron Islands were sorted out (Kingsmoot?) but I think they were very much an after thought and left to their own devices.

Also the Warden of the South is traditionally a Tyrell, not a Dornish prince

EDIT: Also Wardens are appointed by the King, not hereditary but they have been Lannister, Arryn, Stark & Tyrell for so long that many assume it is their 'birthright' hence the uproar when Arryn was replaced and House Lannister effectively became Warden of the West and East. The Warden is a war title only I think. During peacetime it is meaningless but (I think) during war they are allowed to call up & command that regions forces on behalf of the King.

 

[TK-421]

WS has it right. The Iron Islands fall under the North but Balon, Euron, Victarion, Aeron or Asha would never bend the knee to any Stark.

 

[Boaz]

Thanks WS.

 

[Tysha]

I want to share with you my new pic.. So I think this thread is the right place
Asha Greyjoy by ~jekaa on deviantART