Neil Gaiman: "George R.R. Martin is not your b!tch!"

[Ursa major]

I'm with viZion on this. In fact, since we in the UK are about to execute all our politicians, I would urge him (/her?) to run for Parliament at the next election. We need people with sense.

Don't you think that electing someone who lives in Oregon is only going to encourage the House of Commons Fees Office to be even more lenient** with viZion than they are with the current bunch of honour-able (able but not willing, it seems) members?





** - If only with respect to viZion's travel expenses.

 

[HareBrain]

Oregon is so far west it's probably only a few miles to the east.

 

[KESpires]

Ah yes, his "relationship" with his fans. He writes about having a cold in a style utterly untouched by any creativity. He then receives ten hundredweight of replies of overwhelming banality, all written by people with nothing actually to say, but who want to pretend they're in personal contact with the author of their favourite books. Is this a relationship anyone without serious self-esteem issues would really want? I have a more fulfilling relationship with the bacteria on my kitchen wash-sponge. If I'm ever in any danger of writing anything that would garner me legions of fans (and I thank the inventor of the infinite-universes therory of parallel worlds for giving me hope in this) I'm going to try my damnedest to persude my publisher that there might be extra sales in keeping my identity a closely guarded secret, or at least pretending I'm allergic to the internet.

I'm with viZion on this. In fact, since we in the UK are about to execute all our politicians, I would urge him (/her?) to run for Parliament at the next election. We need people with sense.

Is this your entry into the Most Cynical Post of the Day contest?

He posts on his blog. People comment. Sometimes he replies to those comments. He's replied to mine once. I know that Boaz had a bet with him on a football game once.

But you're right, it's all a pseudo relationship. It'd better if every author went Cormac McCarthy on us, didn't care whether any of us ever bought his book(s), and declined interviews and never came out of their house.

So in your world we either hang out at their house or never, ever speak to or email them. There is no degree of relationship in between?

 

[Ursa major]

Is this your entry into the Most Cynical Post of the Day contest?

I hope not, because if it is, I'm going to have to outdo it (although probably not in this thread, you'll be pleased to know).

He posts on his blog. People comment. Sometimes he replies to those comments. He's replied to mine once. I know that Boaz had a bet with him on a football game once.

But you're right, it's all a pseudo relationship. It'd better if every author went Cormac McCarthy on us, didn't care whether any of us ever bought his book(s), and declined interviews and never came out of their house.

So in your world we either hang out at their house or never, ever speak to or email them. There is no degree of relationship in between?

I think we're in danger of straying into that old argument that usually descends into one group shouting, "the way they behaved meant that they were asking for it" and the others shouting, "whatever they did, it's not their fault in the slightest".


Whatever GRRM's intentions, I doubt he wanted (or even expected) some of the abuse he no doubt receives; on the other hand, he has (inadvertantly) provided a conduit for that abuse.


For my own part, it looks to me as if Gaiman's reaction to Gareth's rather naive post was as much the" fault" of American Airlines as anyone.

 

[HareBrain]

So in your world we either hang out at their house or never, ever speak to or email them. There is no degree of relationship in between?

OK, we obviously have very different opinions on this, but for what it's worth, in my world - yes, pretty much.

I see the point in a non-face-to-face relationship that consists of a continuous exchange of emails or letters, or perhaps one or two that deal with questions or comments the reader genuinely feels to be important, and the author's answers. I might write once to an author whose work really impressed me, without expecting a reply. Anything else, what's the point, really?

Then again, I see no point in a great deal of internet "socialising" so probably shouldn't have appeared to single out GRRM for comment. But yes, in my view these are pseudo relationships.

 

[KESpires]

I just don't see why it has to be viewed this way. And this is, as you say, just our differing opinions.

GRRM has a multitude of fans. He sees some at conventions. Some of those he goes out and eats with afterwards. Others he talks to through email. Some others he responds to comments by through his blog.

But all of these "relationships" vary. Some are one off things, such as him responding to my comment that "It must feel very good to have such beautiful artwork of your world rendered." He responded, saying it was no accident because he seeks out that sort of thing. Others, like Boaz, have had back and forth exchanges on his blog about football (one of his passions).

I think that Gaiman's comment could have been better stated thus, "George R. R. Martin does not owe you anything."

Because that is the sticking point if we peel all the other layers away. Certain fans think that he owes them the next book, asap. Certain fans feel that he owes them a relationship on the level you're talking about. Other fans feel that he owes them continual updates on nothing but the next book, his blog becoming nothing but ADWD Update.

But the truth is, we all choose to read his work or not, follow his blog or not, and discuss him or not, and he doesn't owe us anything.

Whether you see the point in socializing with authors or with authors socializing with fans, well, to each his own. GRRM obviously desires some level of connectivity with his fans and has that. On the downside, some of those fans are f-tarded. I guess that comes with the territory.

 

[HareBrain]

I just don't see why it has to be viewed this way. And this is, as you say, just our differing opinions.

Fair enough, and a good post. I think there are quite big issues here with how the internet has changed people's expectations of contact with and information about celebrity, and whether that is healthy or not, but it's a bit late in the evening now for me to make a coherent argument about all that, so thanks for the interesting discussion, and goodnight

 

[Werthead]

GRRM has made himself accessible to his readers. He has a website where he posts news regularly. He blogs. He tours. in other words, he has et up an expectation that says he'll communicate with his readers. He's opened his life to people and in turn, those same people have expected communication about ADWD.

True, but he has no obligation to meet that expectation. He was more forthcoming about the situation with AFFC during the writing process (which notably was on his website with no comments enabled) but has found progress on ADWD far less predictable and more complicated to structure (hence the sudden clamming up about how many pages he has completed out of a target, like he used to do). He has also developed the attitude that if he spends 6+ hours a day working on the book followed by telephone calls and emails with the HBO team and then trying to straighten out the Dabel Brothers' latest calendar screw-up, then when he decides to chill out by going online he doesn't want to immediately enter into a lengthy discussion about ADWD but would rather talk about football or his new house renovations or something else.

If GRRM was running a subscription website and we were paying him money to hear him give updates about ADWD once a fortnight, then the much-discussed 'obligation' actually exists, and when he fails to deliver people are justified getting antsy. As it stands, his blog is a 'free' service which people can read or not as they choose. He has made it clear that on his blog he will rarely talk about ADWD, and will post a big news update on his main website when it is done (and when it is done, the news will resonate across the SF blogosphere and forumscape with the force of an atom bomb, swiftly followed by a chorus of, "When is The Winds of Winter coming out?"). Effectively, people are getting annoyed with the author not providing a service he has not only not promised them, but has an alternate venue for providing that service (and if it hasn't been updated in 18 months, they isn't any major news to give).

As KESpires indicates, GRRM is an author whose career is immeasurably greater than just A Song of Ice and Fire, one who was winning major awards for his work years before some of the people posting in this thread were born. Whilst ASoIaF is his most talked-about work to date (although more people have seen a single episode of Beauty and the Beast than have read ASoIaF worldwide and Wild Cards is still a hugely-selling series) and is probably the reason why 95% of commentators are on his blog in the first place, the author also feels that there is far more to him than just that one work, and doesn't want to talk about it to the exclusion of everything else, as in fact he pretty much did for a decade up until fairly recently.

Also, Dan Simmons chimes in here.

 

[Sapienti]

I think the real problem is readers coming from reading works that are either already complete or in the process of being completed by authors who work hard on 1 series. Martin happened to pull in those readers who may have been oblivious to his other works or just don't care about them. Then there's his blog where expectant readers go in hopes of hearing news about the series they know about and find basically no mention whatsoever of it but instead many other things.

Sure Martin is not tied to the one series, as he's been doing many other projects with many other people and is busy. However, on his blog, he posts about all those other projects but never the one the followers of his blog seem to be most interested in. The end result is annoyed/angry fans. To a lot of people it might seem like Martin doesn't care at all about the book anymore because he spends a lot of the posts on his blog talking about other projects. If you take that and combine it with people who are used to complete works you get the fear that maybe the series will never be finished.

I personally don't think it will ever be completed. I think ADWD may come out eventually but after that I think he'll be pulled into other projects, and since he's not getting any younger, that will likely take up the rest of his time until he dies in a crash or old age or something. Its a new experience for me I must admit, all the series I began reading were eventually completed and this is the first time it seems like a series won't be completed due to the author being too busy and possibly, not caring. I'm not mad at him for not finishing the series I like but I do find it annoying that he has a blog and seemingly uses it to post about everything but ASOIAF. I don't think he's obligated, but to me, it just seems like common sense.

I don't think people would care so much if there wasn't the assumption ADWD would be out soon after AFFC because they were originally part of the same book but then split. That lead to the assumption that the book was probably almost complete and just need to be touched up but then kept getting delayed to the point where he stopped posting. Combine that with the fact that AFFC essiantly was a 600 page cliff hanger and you get that anxiety that only a cliff hanger "season finale" can produce. I think if AFFC had some more finality to it or closure there wouldn't be such a big deal. Also, if Dance ever comes out and ties up the loose ends, it'll be easier for fans to wait for the next book (if there ever is one) because it likely wont have that cliff hanger feel that AFFC has.

 

[KESpires]

True, but he has no obligation to meet that expectation. He was more forthcoming about the situation with AFFC during the writing process (which notably was on his website with no comments enabled) but has found progress on ADWD far less predictable and more complicated to structure (hence the sudden clamming up about how many pages he has completed out of a target, like he used to do). He has also developed the attitude that if he spends 6+ hours a day working on the book followed by telephone calls and emails with the HBO team and then trying to straighten out the Dabel Brothers' latest calendar screw-up, then when he decides to chill out by going online he doesn't want to immediately enter into a lengthy discussion about ADWD but would rather talk about football or his new house renovations or something else.

If GRRM was running a subscription website and we were paying him money to hear him give updates about ADWD once a fortnight, then the much-discussed 'obligation' actually exists, and when he fails to deliver people are justified getting antsy. As it stands, his blog is a 'free' service which people can read or not as they choose. He has made it clear that on his blog he will rarely talk about ADWD, and will post a big news update on his main website when it is done (and when it is done, the news will resonate across the SF blogosphere and forumscape with the force of an atom bomb, swiftly followed by a chorus of, "When is The Winds of Winter coming out?"). Effectively, people are getting annoyed with the author not providing a service he has not only not promised them, but has an alternate venue for providing that service (and if it hasn't been updated in 18 months, they isn't any major news to give).

As KESpires indicates, GRRM is an author whose career is immeasurably greater than just A Song of Ice and Fire, one who was winning major awards for his work years before some of the people posting in this thread were born. Whilst ASoIaF is his most talked-about work to date (although more people have seen a single episode of Beauty and the Beast than have read ASoIaF worldwide and Wild Cards is still a hugely-selling series) and is probably the reason why 95% of commentators are on his blog in the first place, the author also feels that there is far more to him than just that one work, and doesn't want to talk about it to the exclusion of everything else, as in fact he pretty much did for a decade up until fairly recently.

Also, Dan Simmons chimes in here.

I'm glad you linked Dan Simmons's forum. I've been posting and following the topic there also.

As I said before, Neil Gaiman could have stated it a little more eloquently by saying simple that George doesn't owe us anything. And he doesn't.

We could, if we are real, true fans of HIS and not of only ASOIAF, check out Fevre Dream, or Tuf Voyaging, or Dreamsongs, or try to track down the old Wild Card books, etc., etc..

Or, if, as a fan, you're frustrated, feel free to not read his works any longer. It is completely your choice. You, as a fan, also don't owe him anything.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Conspiracy Thoery: GRRM has been writing the rest of the series to make sure ADWD progresses correctly and after ADWD will release the remaining books annually, and there will be much rejoicing.

 

[Raven]

I don't know about you, but I would NEVER start a series that wasn't completed and had no chance of BEING completed, either because the author died, or abandoned it, or whatever. I guess my brain is wired in such a way that I require a sense of completion. I know this about myself, and when I have an option, I'll always choose a course of action that allows for a conclusion.

Fine. But doesn't this make the problems with ASOIAF about you, rather than about GRRM?

When GRRM published AGOT he made it clear that it was part of a series. Implicit in saying that it was a series was the notion that it would be completed.

This is, with respect, just an attempt to beg the question. As Wert said, any writer who begins a series implicitly suggests that he intends to complete it, yes - but that isn't the same thing at all as there being an obligation to (still less a contract with) the reader to actually do so.

Had he said "I'm publishing the first book, but in all honesty, I don't know if there will be any others" I would have chosen not to read AGOT.

What if he had said 'I'm publishing the first book. I will make a good faith effort to finish the series to the best of my ability. But I cannot guarantee it. I might get sick. I might get stuck. It might take five years between instalments. Who knows?'

I ask because basically, this is all any author can say when they begin a series.

The "contract" isn't a legally binding one, but in a sense, he's been commissioned to write new books through the sales of existing books.

This notion of there being a 'contract', I would like to dismiss from the discussion once and for all. It is nothing more than an attempt to lend weight to a weak argument by abusing a term that doesn't belong within ten miles of the conversation. A 'contract' is a two-way agreement with consequences for either side in the event that they break it. Unless you are claiming that you have to continue buying the series whether you like it or not, and can explain what consequences the author can exact on you if you don't, you shouldn't be using the term.

What you mean is an obligation, so let's call it that. And even that seems to be one-sided obligation. GRRM, for one, has made it explicitly clear (on many occasions) that he doesn't consider any of his readers to be under any obligation to buy another one of his books ever again. And it's just as well, because frankly, they're not.

So the suggestion must be that there exists an obligation on the author, without any corresponding obligation on the part of the reader. But even then, I don't consider the man to have any obligation to me, and nor do many of his other readers. So does he have an obligation to me anyway? Even if I don't think he does and don't want him to? Or does he have an obligation only to those readers who believe in their own minds that he owes them something? Either situation seems ridiculous. And slightly creepy, in a way. Do you really get to unilaterally decide whether someone you've probably never met owes you something? I'm not really comfortable with that. I can see why Dan Simmons might liken that mindset to that of the stalker: it's obviously far less extreme, but similarly, it's about what's going on in your head, not in the world.

I think the hardest thing about waiting for ADWD has been not knowing how far away it is.

I'm pretty sure GRRM agrees. He doesn't know either. I'm not really sure how telling people that would help, though.

Ah yes, his "relationship" with his fans. He writes about having a cold in a style utterly untouched by any creativity. He then receives ten hundredweight of replies of overwhelming banality, all written by people with nothing actually to say, but who want to pretend they're in personal contact with the author of their favourite books. Is this a relationship anyone without serious self-esteem issues would really want? I have a more fulfilling relationship with the bacteria on my kitchen wash-sponge.

In that case, a large proportion of the responses were from people who actually do know him personally. Amazingly enough, many of the regular commenters on GRRM's blog are actually his friends. Even famous authors have friends, not just fans. And one of the things about GRRM's blog is that he uses it as I use mine, or you might use yours: to communicate with his friends.

Say 'hi' to the bacteria for me.

 

[Ursa major]

I don't think people would care so much if there wasn't the assumption ADWD would be out soon after AFFC because they were originally part of the same book but then split. That lead to the assumption that the book was probably almost complete and just need to be touched up but then kept getting delayed to the point where he stopped posting.

But the more correct assumption would be that GRRM was finding it nigh on impossible to finish the original, combined book and put the really difficult stuff to one side for inclusion in ADWD while he put the stuff with which he was happier in AFFC; a long wait for ADWD was to be expected.

Combine that with the fact that AFFC essiantly was a 600 page cliff hanger and you get that anxiety that only a cliff hanger "season finale" can produce. I think if AFFC had some more finality to it or closure there wouldn't be such a big deal. Also, if Dance ever comes out and ties up the loose ends, it'll be easier for fans to wait for the next book (if there ever is one) because it likely wont have that cliff hanger feel that AFFC has.

This is an issue, but at least we've been able to read AFFC: if GRRM had continued to struggle with the big fourth book, we'd still be waiting for all of it (and a lot of people would have given up the wait). And by its very nature, ASoIaF has an awful lot of threads that are unlikely to be tied off until the last (seventh?) book.

We could, if we are real, true fans of HIS and not of only ASOIAF, check out Fevre Dream, or Tuf Voyaging, or Dreamsongs, or try to track down the old Wild Card books, etc., etc..

I'd definitely recommend Dreamsongs: good quality SF, Fantasy, Horror (and combinations of them), plus a couple of TV scripts and some interesting essays about GRRM's life and his views on his work.

Conspiracy Thoery: GRRM has been writing the rest of the series to make sure ADWD progresses correctly and after ADWD will release the remaining books annually, and there will be much rejoicing.

Meanwhile, back in the real world....

(Although - and here I'll admit that I'm being overly optimistic - if GRRM can get ADWD sorted out, this may mean the following books should be easier to produce, on the basis that ADWD (together with AFFC) is the book where ASoIaF is at its broadest and most diffuse and after that, the various threads should begin to converge.)

 

[TK-421]

Thanks for the pseudo-relationship, guys. At this point, I don't give a rat's you-know-what (better be careful of not showing that deep malaise) when the book comes out or what others think about the reasons why it has not come out on their schedule. I'm going back to sleep on this one.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...........

 

[Werthead]

this is the first time it seems like a series won't be completed due to the author being too busy and possibly, not caring.

This is what is frustrating for the people who have been with this series for a long time. We know how much blood, sweat and tears GRRM has put into these books and into ADWD in particular, then people dismiss that in a second because he's taken the same amount of time, or indeed less, to write ADWD than he has the other books in the series. It doesn't really make any sense. If he took over four years apiece to write A Game of Thrones and A Feast for Crows and over three to write A Clash of Kings, why is there all this despair and gloom over him taking under four (so far) to write A Dance with Dragons? I call this 'consistency'. People keep using the short writing time of A Storm of Swords as the rule, not the exception, which I really don't understand.

In fairness, the above information is not massively well-known. People just see AGoT 96, ACoK 98, ASoS 00, AFFC 05 and ADWD 09 or 10 and start wailing. I can understand that, but it's not really warranted. At least not yet. If ADWD still isn't out another two years down the line, perhaps the hysteria will be more understandable. A tad disturbing ("It's only a book!"), but understandable

I'm not mad at him for not finishing the series I like but I do find it annoying that he has a blog and seemingly uses it to post about everything but ASOIAF. I don't think he's obligated, but to me, it just seems like common sense.

I think that's a natural feeling and I think it doesn't help that GRRM's POV on the issue is different from that of many newer fans, that is the people who've only read the books in the last year or two and immediately gone rushing off to his blog to find out the latest on the next book only to find no mention of it in a year and a half except for a single entry back in February and lots of talk of other things that they are not particularly interested in. GRRM's POV, on the other hand, is that he has talked about and discussed in-depth the series non-stop for over ten years, provided (comparatively) large amounts of information during the writing of the previous books and it hasn't stopped people moaning to him about the situation, and he's not really prepared to carry on doing that any more. He has other irons in the fire that he wants to talk about as well, and if people don't want to read about that then they don't have to.

I also think GRRM's attitude is one of bemusement at being a fan of a particular work and not the author. When I find an book I really like, I check out what else the author has done, and largely find that I like that as well. After reading ASoS I went out and tracked down Fevre Dream and enjoyed it as much as ASoIaF. Whenever I therefore encounter someone who says, "I love ASoIaF but I'm not reading some vampire book!" I am somewhat confused (especially since GRRM has undead in ASoIaF as well). That said, I don't think GRRM is naive enough to expect everyone who likes his big fantasy series to like his non-big-fantasy projects as well: he's talked about Stephen Donaldson's fortunes after he stopped writing Big Fantasy books in favour of SF and his increase in sales after he returned to fantasy.

In all of this it should be remembered that, by themselves, the success of the Wild Cards books and his pre-ASoIaF novels would make GRRM a well-known SF&F name with a solid career and able to make a living from his writing. Therefore there are a lot of people out there interested in the other projects. Not as many as the ASoIaF fans, no, but enough to sustain a career many authors would be envious off.

I don't think people would care so much if there wasn't the assumption ADWD would be out soon after AFFC because they were originally part of the same book but then split. That lead to the assumption that the book was probably almost complete and just need to be touched up but then kept getting delayed to the point where he stopped posting.

This is a key point. GRRM never said that ADWD was 'nearly finished' when AFFC was. He said he'd chopped material out of AFFC to go into ADWD and ADWD was thus half-finished. He still had to write the other half. In fact, the choice of the word 'half' wasn't a great idea either, as the numbers he gave for completed pages when AFFC was finished suggested the transplanted material was actually one-third of ADWD, so he had even more all-new material to write from scratch. Then ADWD turned out to be longer than planned, so at the moment it may be closer to a quarter. And then he seems to have rewritten most of that material.

So yes, GRRM definitely made a few over-optimistic PR errors when he finished AFFC, out of the jubilation of finally finishing that novel and getting it on the shelf, but events were overtaking him even as he was making those statements to ensure that ADWD wasn't going to be out as soon as he'd hoped.

Conspiracy Thoery: GRRM has been writing the rest of the series to make sure ADWD progresses correctly and after ADWD will release the remaining books annually, and there will be much rejoicing.

George is perfectly capable of being this evil Unfortunately, based on the writing time for the prior volumes of the series, it would seem to be unlikely, although GRRM has confirmed that at least one chapter has slipped from ADWD to The Winds of Winter. So, technically, he has already started writing TWoW (possibly confusing acronym if you're talking to MMORPG fans but what the hell), if that makes you feel better

if GRRM can get ADWD sorted out, this may mean the following books should be easier to produce, on the basis that ADWD (together with AFFC) is the book where ASoIaF is at its broadest and most diffuse and after that, the various threads should begin to converge

Rejoice! Or something. In Spain last year GRRM said the same thing. In AFFC and ADWD the POV characters are at their most diverse and widespread, each POV is on a different storyline track to everyone else (apart from say the odd Cersei/Jaime conversation) and the story is at its broadest. Starting in ADWD but more notably in the following books, the scope will start contracting as Characters A and B, who previously had separate chapters and storylines, will now be spending a lot of time together and you only need one of their chapters to let you know what's going on with both characters. So the complexity of the series should diminish somewhat. Whether that helps the writing time, I'm not sure. Maybe. We'll find out, eventually.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

I'm not even sure I want the complexity to diminish!

Therefore, I shall be patient with the great man. I'm sure he'll be relieved to hear this.

 

[thesoothsayer]

I'm not even sure I want the complexity to diminish!

Therefore, I shall be patient with the great man. I'm sure he'll be relieved to hear this.

Don't worry. You won't have to be patient for long. I heard a conspiracy theory that he's writing all three final books at the same time to prevent continuity errors and will release them consecutively so fans don't have to wait too long!

 

[Culhwch]

He actually finished aDwD a year and a half ago, but he's just keeping it back from the publishers to punish the fans who've been giving him hell all these years. Of course he employed a network of international investigation agencies to track down those fans who've expressed nothing but patience and support for him, and provided us with advanced copies. Needless to say the five of us really enjoyed it!

 

[dustinzgirl]

He actually finished aDwD a year and a half ago, but he's just keeping it back from the publishers to punish the fans who've been giving him hell all these years. Of course he employed a network of international investigation agencies to track down those fans who've expressed nothing but patience and support for him, and provided us with advanced copies. Needless to say the five of us really enjoyed it!

Yeah, and the hecklers will get.....NOTHING!

 

[KESpires]

The five of us...

That was very funny.

His team missed me though. I've got to email him about that. I'm sure that'll be one of the weirder emails he gets. "I know you have a team that investigates fans to see if they've been supportive before you give them the prepublished copy of ADWD. I've been supportive. Can you email me the advance copy?"