Neil Gaiman: "George R.R. Martin is not your b!tch!"

This is what is frustrating for the people who have been with this series for a long time. We know how much blood, sweat and tears GRRM has put into these books and into ADWD in particular, then people dismiss that in a second because he's taken the same amount of time, or indeed less, to write ADWD than he has the other books in the series. It doesn't really make any sense. If he took over four years apiece to write A Game of Thrones and A Feast for Crows and over three to write A Clash of Kings, why is there all this despair and gloom over him taking under four (so far) to write A Dance with Dragons? I call this 'consistency'. People keep using the short writing time of A Storm of Swords as the rule, not the exception, which I really don't understand.

In fairness, the above information is not massively well-known. People just see AGoT 96, ACoK 98, ASoS 00, AFFC 05 and ADWD 09 or 10 and start wailing. I can understand that, but it's not really warranted. At least not yet. If ADWD still isn't out another two years down the line, perhaps the hysteria will be more understandable. A tad disturbing ("It's only a book!"), but understandable ;)



I think that's a natural feeling and I think it doesn't help that GRRM's POV on the issue is different from that of many newer fans, that is the people who've only read the books in the last year or two and immediately gone rushing off to his blog to find out the latest on the next book only to find no mention of it in a year and a half except for a single entry back in February and lots of talk of other things that they are not particularly interested in. GRRM's POV, on the other hand, is that he has talked about and discussed in-depth the series non-stop for over ten years, provided (comparatively) large amounts of information during the writing of the previous books and it hasn't stopped people moaning to him about the situation, and he's not really prepared to carry on doing that any more. He has other irons in the fire that he wants to talk about as well, and if people don't want to read about that then they don't have to.

I also think GRRM's attitude is one of bemusement at being a fan of a particular work and not the author. When I find an book I really like, I check out what else the author has done, and largely find that I like that as well. After reading ASoS I went out and tracked down Fevre Dream and enjoyed it as much as ASoIaF. Whenever I therefore encounter someone who says, "I love ASoIaF but I'm not reading some vampire book!" I am somewhat confused (especially since GRRM has undead in ASoIaF as well). That said, I don't think GRRM is naive enough to expect everyone who likes his big fantasy series to like his non-big-fantasy projects as well: he's talked about Stephen Donaldson's fortunes after he stopped writing Big Fantasy books in favour of SF and his increase in sales after he returned to fantasy.

In all of this it should be remembered that, by themselves, the success of the Wild Cards books and his pre-ASoIaF novels would make GRRM a well-known SF&F name with a solid career and able to make a living from his writing. Therefore there are a lot of people out there interested in the other projects. Not as many as the ASoIaF fans, no, but enough to sustain a career many authors would be envious off.



This is a key point. GRRM never said that ADWD was 'nearly finished' when AFFC was. He said he'd chopped material out of AFFC to go into ADWD and ADWD was thus half-finished. He still had to write the other half. In fact, the choice of the word 'half' wasn't a great idea either, as the numbers he gave for completed pages when AFFC was finished suggested the transplanted material was actually one-third of ADWD, so he had even more all-new material to write from scratch. Then ADWD turned out to be longer than planned, so at the moment it may be closer to a quarter. And then he seems to have rewritten most of that material.

So yes, GRRM definitely made a few over-optimistic PR errors when he finished AFFC, out of the jubilation of finally finishing that novel and getting it on the shelf, but events were overtaking him even as he was making those statements to ensure that ADWD wasn't going to be out as soon as he'd hoped.

I was relatively new to the series and never really read his blog for information because I was actually going by a tentative date on wikipedia and stalling my reading of AFFC. When I finally finished it a while back, I gave his blog a look through and read the Feb 19th entry and that was enough for me to be patient and wait it out. I used to be under the impression that all novels took 3 or 4 or more years to complete just because books I had read before had wide publishing gaps. Its like you say though, too many people dismiss all the reasons he could have behind the delays and just cling to a quick release of one book as a norm and expect it to continue.

The only reason I would have in thinking the series might not be completed is the time gaps might get larger as the "things on his plate" multiply. That combined with me having a history of bad luck just has me thinking "because I'm interested in it, bad things can happen". Like a 'world revolves around me' type of outlook on life but not in a selfish way, more in a pessimistic way lol. That said, there are the exceptions. Shortly after I started reading the series I read HBO was going to produce a series. Just goes to show that any expectation you have in life you can throw out the window.

All we can do is sit back and wait and see what happens. Maybe send the man some support mail because lord knows he needs it with all the impatient fans about.
 
Don't worry. You won't have to be patient for long. I heard a conspiracy theory that he's writing all three final books at the same time to prevent continuity errors and will release them consecutively so fans don't have to wait too long! ;)

What sort of crackpot would come up with such an idea? Honestly, people these days...
 
The only thing I wanted to point out that I see wrong with Mr. Gaiman's post was that if I had a Bitch just about the last person that would come to my mind would be George R.R. Martin to fill that spot...."shudders":eek:
 
The only thing I wanted to point out that I see wrong with Mr. Gaiman's post was that if I had a Bitch just about the last person that would come to my mind would be George R.R. Martin to fill that spot...."shudders":eek:

Well I guess you're not really a true fan, Rahl. :p
 
OK,

Then again, I see no point in a great deal of internet "socialising" so probably shouldn't have appeared to single out GRRM for comment. But yes, in my view these are pseudo relationships.

I realize this is dead and done, but I was really disappointed that no one pointed out that this person said this on a social internet discussion board.
 
While GRRM may not be my "bitch," I will not buy another book in the series until the series is completed. My loss? Maybe, but I refuse to invest any further time in a series that has a decent chance of never being completed.

Additionally, Gaiman comes off as a little too pompous for my tastes. It is these same "bitching" people that help put dinner on his table. Get over yourself.
 
I also believe that the series will never be finished unless he's able to motor through the last books in a year or two each. I hope I'm wrong but I'd definitely bet against completion. In fact, does anyone want to bet on it? ;)

However, I will still buy the books as they are released and more than likely on the day they are released! However however, because of my experience with this series and with the Wheel of Time, I'll never start another series until it's finished or I'm extremely sure it will be completed (such as when I started Erikson's series which I ended up hating and quitting after three books anyway).
 
As with viZion, I will get ADWD when it comes out - though probably not on the first day: I'm no more GRRM's bitch than he is mine - and will read it for the enjoyment that I hope it will give me.


If we lived in a world where only instant** gratification led to anything, we'd probably be sitting on the branches of trees somewhere in Africa, hoping that the lions won't eat us. [/preaching]





** - Okay, ten years plus is quite a long instant, but many human endeavours take generations to come fully to fruition. [/preaching]***



*** - Sometimes you have to switch it off twice.
 
I believe some may be overstating this possibility that the series may not be completed.

Frankly, I never understood why people who refuse to continue or start the series because it may not be finished because they see it as a waste of time, would in turn waste their time on a GRRM forum. Oh well, to each their own.
 
Slightly off-topic (though related): This being the case, you're missing out on some of the best stuff out there, as many, if not most, of the really ambitious projects or sets never are finished, whether it be Balzac's Comédie humaine, Tolkien's tales of Middle-earth, E. R. Eddison's Zimiamvia books (along with The Worm Ouroboros), or the Durants' History of Civilization (which only made it through the Napoleonic Era before they died, despite their working on it for half a century).

It's your choice, of course, but I'd urge you to explore (and quite possibly enjoy) the numerous unfinished sequences out there. Like life, you'll come in on a story which has been going on for a long time, and you won't see the end, but the journey in-between is well worth the risk....

As for the post by Gaiman... while I find the use of the term in this context to be in somewhat poor taste, I can understand the reasons for it; and if you think that this is anything, try reading Harlan Ellison's "You Don't Know Me, I Don't Know You", originally published as part of The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction's Harlan Ellison issue (July 1977), and later reprinted in his collection of essays, Sleepless Nights in the Procrustean Bed (1984); I think Ellison answers the point quite thoroughly there....

Sorry for the late response. I was re-reading the thread and noticed your reply.

My feeling is that there are enough fine stand-alone novels and completed series to keep me happy without beginning something that may never be completed. As I've gotten older (I'm GRRM's age), I've begun to think of things in a more finite manner. While I don't plan on dying any time soon, I also understand that there is a finite amount of material that I can read before I'm no longer able to, for whatever reason.

Another complication for me is my eysight. While i can see well enough to read my 24" flat panel monitor, it's very diffcult to read a printed book. In addition to owning the recorded versions of ASOIAF i also own the printed versions, but mostly becuase I love paper books and I find them easier to refer back to than the recordings. But I digress. The problem is that it takes me forever to finish a long book. I just can't listen as quickly as i sed to be able to read. As a result, I find that i have to manage my reading time better and be more discerning about what i begin.

Anyway, I appreciate the advice, :)
 
A very interesting discussion. The only author I have ever hassled was J.V. Jones and I think that was limited to two emails that she never responded to.

When I read or hear fan-people obsessing about an author, I tend to think they are mentally ill. Being harassed by mentally ill people would not be an experience that any of us would want. It gets worse. These mentally ill people all have opinions that they want to share with literally any faceless cowsack they hope will listen. Not sure if cowsack is an actual word but it is better than the word bitch. Which leads me to the next point. Why do people feel the need to share the fact that they were offended? To actually set aside the time to type out several sentences dictating your displeasure to some random slight or another. Why share that with us? Why should we care? Why not just be offended and keep it to yourself? Now I am offended and am taking time out of my day to tell you that you have offended me. I hope some hapless cowsack out there on the www gives two hoots about my offence and chips in with their tuppence worth. :)

Good discussion though. Like I say I was mentally ill once upon a time.

Sorry JV.
 

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