Has Final Fantasy lost it's charm ?

[Armadillo-002]

After watching screen shots & trailers of up coming FFXIII. It just occured to me that the FF hasn't got me interested anymore or more to the point it has lost it's charm & appeal. Not talking about the fact it has gone popular, but the game has lost it's appeal/ charm to me. Why? because the game has an average story plot, the characters are virtually reharshes of other characters from other series (compare Ashe to Lightning, same character model but with altered apperances & skill set, same again with Yuna to Rinoa etc), the saving graces being their goals & personalites. The mechanics & engine are changed to try & being different each time. I can be gravely wrong about my assumption. Thoughts please?.

So after searching for games that have potential to take the mantel; here are some games & developers that have caught my attention (please bear in mind that I haven't actually played some of these as they went largely unnoticed by me, * indicating haven't played) :

Gust:

Alteir Iris 1,2 & 3* (all three)
Ar tonelico 1* & 2 (2 being released in North america already, date set for Europe being 05/06/2009 I think)
Mana Khemia 1 (premium comes with 33 sound track CD & mini poster) 2 (2 being released in North America this autumn I think, no release date for Europe as of yet)

Level 5:

Rogue Galaxy
Dark Chronicles
Dark Cloud

Tri-ace:

Valkyrie Profile 2: Silmeria
Valkyrie Profile: Lenneth*
Valkyrie Profile: Covenent of the plume*
Star Ocean: Till the end of time

Altus:

Shin Megumi Series*
Digital Devil saga*
Persona 1-4 (*haven't played 1-3) (4 comes with selected sound track CD)

Vanillaware:

Odin Sphere

If there are any other RPG games that you think are being over-looked please do mention them.

 

[Sephiroth]

I'm reserving judgement. Although I was hugely disappointed with XII in the end, I'm still (hugely) excited about XIII, and I don't know enough about it to criticise.

They've never managed to match VI and VII for story, but I still hold out hope that the magic will be recreated. We'll see. I hope the new games at least have more of a fantastical element than XII, which was rather mundane (not to mention too short, and which felt half-finished).

As for characters, it's their personalities that matter most, but it's fair to say that those in the later games have been less impressive. In XII, I felt like I never got to know any of them at all...or worse, that there was very little to know.

But I haven't given up hope for the new ones. I'm seriously looking forward to them.

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

I'd say FF has lost its charm after X. Some might argue that X-2 was alright, but I really didn't care for that one, and I'm not even all the way through XII because I got bored with it. I also didn't really like XII's battle system all that well.

 

[Commonmind]

Has it lost its charm, or have we become more sophisticated gamers? I'm willing to bet the latter is true, for many of us.

FFVI, VII and X came at a time in many of our lives where we were more in touch with that part of ourselves which bought into the fantastical; we were more easily swept away by these sprawling JRPG epics.

But all of these games were still inherently flawed. VI with its lackluster translation, VII's story (I know, Seph is going to shoot me for saying so) was riddled with cliche's -- a quiet antagonist whose only real bad-ass moment came in the form of walking through fire and killing one of your more beloved party members. But we all painted these grander images in our minds because we experienced them at a time where we were susceptible to being immersed in just these kinds of adventures.

Further proof of this comes from talking to different generation of gamers. As a thirty-something, FFVI was my favorite of the series -- an opinion quite a few of my peers share. Guys a few years younger tend to adore VII. X is the classic for an even younger audience. And so on.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

I think the "we've become more sophisticated gamers" argument holds weight with people who game almost exclusively on rpgs, but that cannot possibly be true for everyone. The fact that most people didn't notice that VII was absolutely riddled with story cliche's and had completely asinine side-quests (chocobo races! Emerald/Ruby weapon... Just why exactly is the boss of the game like a million times weaker than these guys?!) and further FF's didn't break from or compounded such errors basically blows that possibility out of the water.

For me console RPGs peaked at ChronoTrigger/FF6 (those are my two Favs). Breath of Fire is the only series that hasn't disappointed me too much with any of its installments (I haven't gotten to play the 4th one though... money hasn't been quite as loose ever since mom and dad stopped buying my games for me ). And it was build up from there. FF IV and V were both good games; they each had some flaws to them (I think IV less than V, but I'm chalking that up to personal taste). And then seven was about on par with V imo. And it just kept going downhill from there.


I have XII and have yet to complete the bloody thing. I just won't slog through 30 minutes of monster bashing to get 1 minute of plot even if the plot is bloody brilliant with masterful graphical rendering and crisp sounds. The battle system in XII does need work, and maybe XIII will pull it off. But that doesn't address the fundamental problem of Plot to Combat ratio. Combat should be seen as part of the plot (at least at times).

For Instance: In FF6 there is a scene where you fight ultros atop the rafters in the Opera House. There is a time limit because if you fail to beat him in time he drops this anvil thing (I think) down and it ruins the opera (kills a character?). This kind of plot/combat relation reinforces to me the importance of combat in a game. I like consequences for failure. I like knowing that my combat not only nets me EXP, GOLD, & LOOT but that it also has plot relevance.

Plot relevance for combat is what kills most MMOs for me. Killing 400,000 Zorgs and bringing back 40,000 Zorg pelts to gain 4,000,000 Zeny and 35,000 Exp doesn't mean a bloody thing to me unless it just so happens that the final boss of the game is allergic to Zorg fur (and even then this game better be a comedy rpg, because otherwise that is just ridiculous).

MTF

 

[Urlik]

Plot relevance for combat is what kills most MMOs for me. Killing 400,000 Zorgs and bringing back 40,000 Zorg pelts to gain 4,000,000 Zeny and 35,000 Exp doesn't mean a bloody thing to me unless it just so happens that the final boss of the game is allergic to Zorg fur (and even then this game better be a comedy rpg, because otherwise that is just ridiculous).

you've hit the nail on the head there MTF.
MMOs are all about levelling up and becoming wealthier/more powerfull than everyone else.
that is fine to a degree but what is the point when there is no story to unfold?

 

[Commonmind]

I might further argue the number of individuals who didn't notice FFVII's flaws are directly proportionate to the very outspoken vocal minority. We know they haven't taken note of the game's flaws because they tell us, constantly, how flawless of a game FFVII truly is. The problem lies in the fact that folks who see it as mediocre will very rarely speak up, either out of fear of being shunned by their immediate peers -- because, let's face it, FF fanatics are rabid at the best of times, monstrous at the worst -- or because they just don't care enough to raise their voice.

I digress.

I do reinforce the idea that as we mature so do our tastes. I don't like the same movies, wear the same clothes, read the same books or watch the same television programming that I did when I was 14, 18, 25. I suspect this is why I'm less and less compelled to invest my time in games which are still catering to and being developed for a younger demographic.

And I agree with what you said combat relevance, but if we're being honest with ourselves combat-to-plot ratio has never been the strong suit of any major JRPG franchise. Even the old Final Fantasy titles were riddled with long periods of grinding, or hour-long walks through single dungeon screens that would have taken a fraction of that time if someone had dialed down the random encounter trigger. FFXII isn't the only culprit here -- even FFVI (my personal favorite of the franchise) suffered from some heavy handedness.

As for MMO's, folks who play these games for their content have lost the point. The focus is community, with the game serving as a social platform. What kills MMO's for me is not being forced to collect 2000 wolf pelts for some unnappreciative NPC, but having to do so without any friends to share in the experience. However, that's not to say I would stick my nose up if they could somehow break those paradigms and bridge the gap between the distilled combat and general gameplay experience of the MMO and the one fine tuned for a single player (here's hoping The Old Republic does just that).

 

[Urlik]

As for MMO's, folks who play these games for their content have lost the point. The focus is community, with the game serving as a social platform. What kills MMO's for me is not being forced to collect 2000 wolf pelts for some unnappreciative NPC, but having to do so without any friends to share in the experience. However, that's not to say I would stick my nose up if they could somehow break those paradigms and bridge the gap between the distilled combat and general gameplay experience of the MMO and the one fine tuned for a single player (here's hoping The Old Republic does just that).

I agree. RPGs should take a leaf out of the FPS book and have a co-operative campaign. there is nothing better than sharing the experience of playing a game with a friend, it would just be nice if the RPG makers realised this

 

[Saeltari]

I have to fall completely the other way. And to answer the question yes, it lost its charm when it went multiplayer and killed its single player. I hope they never give up the single player rpg's because the mmo's I have tried to play I found nothing more than hugely irritating due to the idiot factor that seemed to permeate the games players. If anybody knows the most recent ff single player, non online, game I'd appreciate the heads up. I wouldn't mind giving that a shot again.

 

[Commonmind]

I agree. RPGs should take a leaf out of the FPS book and have a co-operative campaign. there is nothing better than sharing the experience of playing a game with a friend, it would just be nice if the RPG makers realised this

They did, once upon a time. Some of the most prolific PC RPG's had cooperative play. The only title in recent memory to offer this was Neverwinter Nights 2, and it seems more and more developers are moving away from building these experiences. So, unfortunately for us, that development strategy is heading in the opposite, and wrong, direction.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

The closest thing to a cooperative quest MMO is Guild Wars (I like Guild Wars and am waiting somewhat patiently for Guild Wars II)...

MTF

 

[Sephiroth]

Has it lost its charm, or have we become more sophisticated gamers? I'm willing to bet the latter is true, for many of us.

Agreed. And it's good to see you back, man!

FFVI, VII and X came at a time in many of our lives where we were more in touch with that part of ourselves which bought into the fantastical; we were more easily swept away by these sprawling JRPG epics.

I was swept away? Really? Heh...

But all of these games were still inherently flawed. VI with its lackluster translation, VII's story (I know, Seph is going to shoot me for saying so) was riddled with cliche's -- a quiet antagonist whose only real bad-ass moment came in the form of walking through fire and killing one of your more beloved party members. But we all painted these grander images in our minds because we experienced them at a time where we were susceptible to being immersed in just these kinds of adventures.

*draws sidearm*

^_^

Nah, but seriously, you do have a point. When you say we painted grander images in our minds, I think you hit the nail on the head. What a great game does for me is allow my imagination to build upon the reality of the content provided as a foundation, and the combination of the two becomes something altogether more. When I played VII, I had never seen anything like it before, and the experience of playing it for 2-3 days straight (without breaks other than for eating/sleeping), at 17 years old, is something I shall forever cherish. Even now, just listening to Uematsu's score brings back all the memories and emotions...

I still think the antagonist (yours truly... ;p) is one of the best things about the game. The very fact that he is not your traditional 'badass' is what made him interesting, to me. His story is a tragedy, and he is also a victim. One of the things I really like about the story in VII is the subtletly of the way the true antagonist -- Jenova -- is dealt with. The true power and nature of Jenova is only hinted at, but to me, that only makes her...(it?)...all the more ominous and threatening.

In the same way, Sephiroth's 'quietness', coupled with his immense power (which is hinted at from early on), makes him seem a looming threat from the moment you leave Midgar -- mysterious, and deadly.

Anyway, I'll shut up, now.

I think the "we've become more sophisticated gamers" argument holds weight with people who game almost exclusively on rpgs, but that cannot possibly be true for everyone. The fact that most people didn't notice that VII was absolutely riddled with story cliche's and had completely asinine side-quests (chocobo races! Emerald/Ruby weapon... Just why exactly is the boss of the game like a million times weaker than these guys?!) and further FF's didn't break from or compounded such errors basically blows that possibility out of the water.

I don't think it's a case of not noticing clichés. One man's archetype is another's stereotype. IMO, FFVII approached its storytelling with both charm and a sense of fun, and while it may contain some clichés, I think the whole is dramatic, coherent and pathetic. I don't feel that any of the subsequent titles have managed to achieve this. FFX's story felt as if it had the potential, but it crumbled as it went on, and ended up a disaster. As for XII, don't even get me started....... ;p

And hey, I enjoyed racing my chocobos!

I, too, have lamented the relative weakness of end bosses when compared to the optional 'superbosses', but at the end of the day, the battle system is one of the things I enjoy most about FF games, and I relish the challenge of attempting to beat Emerald/Ruby/Omega Weapon, Ozma, the Dark Aeons & Penance, etc. (Oh, and Yiazmat, Ultima and Omega Mk. XII, of course. In XII, that was the only real satisfaction I got from playing the game...)

But not everyone likes the hours and hours of grinding required to steel your characters for the challenge, and yet anyone who starts the game wants to be able to complete the story portion, so I understand why they have to make the end bosses so weak, even if I don't like it.


So, part of me agrees with you about plot-to-combat ratio, and part doesn't, since combat is a major reason why I play these games. I do agree about plot-to-combat relevance, but it seems to me that games would need an awful lot of plot to balance out the ratio. However, if grinding is not your thing, you should be able to progress through the story without having to spend hours between each story section, so I get what you mean. We each play differently, I suppose.





Saeltari, the last single-player FF game was FFXII for PS2 (although I would recommend X -- for the same console -- over that one).


As for co-operative play...has anyone played FFXI? (I haven't, but I notice that XIV is due out next year, and is also a MMO.)

 

[Cayal]

I will admit I have lost interest in the Final Fantasy franchise. I am admittedly more interested in Versus then XIII more because it looks like a darker story but I haven't been as keen on it as I have been in previous Final Fantasies.

Though it does not mean I will not play them both. I will, that's for sure. But my preference now is on Uncharted, God of War 3 etc.

 

[Commonmind]

Agreed. And it's good to see you back, man!

Glad to be home

And having just started replaying FFVII (of the digital download persuasion; I'm starting to like this PS3/PSP transfer gimmick!) I can say I'm starting to agree with some of your assessments (especially that whole "looming" theme)-- though we'll see how far I come around in another 20-30 hours

 

[Sephiroth]

I know how you feel, I had a pretty long break from here, too (due to various life circumstances, etc)...but the place isn't the same without ya, dude.

And having just started replaying FFVII (of the digital download persuasion; I'm starting to like this PS3/PSP transfer gimmick!) I can say I'm starting to agree with some of your assessments (especially that whole "looming" theme)-- though we'll see how far I come around in another 20-30 hours

Hey, any distance at all is something!

As for me, I would never try to claim the story is perfect (honest... ;p), but as I said above, I think the whole hangs together well, despite whatever flaws there are. IMO, it transcends the flaws. I always felt like each character had a story I cared about, and that those stories fitted in well with the overarching plot (both the Shinra/environmental and Jenova/Sephiroth antagonist threads). Everything came together well as the story progressed, and crucially, what I was doing at the end of the game felt relevant, I felt as if I had been led there from the very beginning.

(Contrast this with what I was doing at the end of IX... or the great Yunalesca exposition -- info-dump? -- near the end of X...)

I think the pacing is good. I also think it gives the players a lot of credit, in that it leaves us to fill in the blanks ourselves, rather than trying to dictate every single little detail (particularly with the Jenova thread...).

And I can forgive its quirkiness in places, or an element of dramatic cliché. It's not high literature, after all.




I saw it was available on PSN, but I still have my original copy, and it works on my PS3. I played the start again recently, but I'd like to get a memory card adapter so that I can have a look at my old savegames...

 

[Commonmind]

I have my original as well, but being able to play it on the portable is an absolute must for me at the moment. One of the reasons I've been gone has been due to my staying at the hospital for extended periods of time while my son recovers from his numerous surgeries and progressively complicated state of health. The DS and the PSP have been absolute lifesavers in this regard. I had no idea I liked either of the systems as much as I do, until finally giving them some time to rest in my palms.

Funny; I've bought every iteration of the hardware, but have only started playing them here recently.

And I empathize, where VII's ending is concerned. Despite my grumbling there was cohesion, solid pacing, a plot that arced in some semblance of a geometrical shape -- rather than getting lost in jutting spikes and sagging dips that made very little sense. I'm not even sure what happened at the end of IX, I just know that the emotional bit grabbed me, the ending seen with the cowl being thrown off (keeping it vague here so I don't spoil it for someone). And X...whew.

There, we can agree. When at the climax and subsequent finale I was facing off against an enemy that I'd been aligning myself against throughout the entirety of game, I felt like what I was doing had some meaning and what happened afterward would be a consequence I was prepared for, was familiar with, had some context. I've said this in other threads, but I often feel SE loses touch with its audience as it nears the end of its titles; they seem to trip over allegory and metaphor, get lost in grandiose plot twists that, while entirely predictable, ironically make very little sense within the frame of the story. I generally start most FF titles with enthusiasm, and by the end of the game that usually changes to an overwhelming sense of ambivalence.

 

[Cayal]

I bought FFVII on the PSN...I actually think everyone with a PS3 did that, lol. It was a massive seller.
More proof how much a remake would sell.

------------------------

I didn't understand the ending of Final Fantasy X. I also don't get the lack of love for FFXII. It was excellent.

 

[Commonmind]

I honestly believe that PSN release was a primer, a gauge for SE to consider whether or not a remake would be profitable.

And I've professed my love for XII many times over. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Even the MMO-inspired battle-system. I spent hours running around, building up chains to grab the rare mobs and loot, and it was the first game in a while where I actually walked into a cave, got my face boiled off by a high level enemy, and said, "well, I think I need to level up some more," with a smile on my face. Something I haven't experienced since some of the old DQ titles.

My only real complaint, at this point in time (I'm sure I'll remember others later) was that while I enjoyed the story, and the attempt at a larger, politically driven story, I felt the final encounters of the game rolled back into cliche a bit, like SE lost their nerve and decided adding multi-tentacled mutations of the main antagonists was the only acceptable outcome (compared to actually thinking about things more constructively -- perhaps subverting the cliche a bit with a final battle that was on a larger scale).

 

[creativeflow20]

you have a point but i love the feel/look of versus. i love final fantaxy X but for me, the second one was atrocious ( i love payne though). just really crap gameplay for me.

 

[Commonmind]

I'm almost hoping that versus breaks some major boundaries and becomes the paradigm shift for the franchise. I would really love to see it head into a different direction. One of the reasons we were given turn-based systems was due to the constraints of the technology at the times these games were first developed. I could see, now that the technology has caught up, a fluid system which is far more action-oriented, but which still allowed some strategy to be involved -- I'm thinking along the lines of the original Valkyrie Profile maybe, something that blends the controller as an interface for spells, attacks, items, etc., rather than bogging down the action with menus and tedious selections.

Some PC RPG's do this effectively, with a system of hotkeys that govern actions, allowing you to switch to other characters seamlessly (think Dragon Age, if anyone has seen the battle system they have developed), all while the pace of the battle is continuously moving forward.

Ranting? I think I am a bit...maybe tired...