Has Final Fantasy lost it's charm ?

[Sephiroth]

Sorry to hear about your medical issues, CM. I wish your son a full and speedy recovery.


I haven't ever had a reason to get into the whole handheld thing; I've never actually owned one, though I've played on my friends' many times.

It seems that our views on FFVII are not so far apart. Perhaps you're just more prone to grumbling than I am, since VII is one game I'm willing to forgive almost anything. Then again, I suppose my point is that it earns that forgiveness...

I agree with you that SE need to sort out their endings. As I've said, I don't feel there's a single game after VII that has a decent climax/finale.


I didn't find XII to be excellent, Cayal. I enjoyed playing it, mainly for the battles (I love getting pwned by high-level enemies, then levelling up and going back to said cave for some payback...and the mob hunts and other optional bosses were cool...), but I thought the story was very poor.

I appreciate that the attempt to go with a different style of story was a bold idea, but I feel like it fell flat on its face. Lack of characterisation was a major issue for me (not even poor characterisation, just the complete absence of it, IMO). I still don't know who Vaan is -- he is utterly bland, and I couldn't identify with him at all. Same goes for Penelo; and the others are, in the main, equally two-dimensional. Balthier, and to a lesser extent Fran, are not quite as bad, but Ashe and Basch are pure cardboard.

Added to that, I felt that while the idea to attempt a grander political story was a good one, it was never realised. To me, the story felt wafer-thin, not to mention incomplete -- there was very little of it (which lends support to MTF's comment about plot-to-combat ratio, I suppose), and it seemed to end way too soon.

Also, it couldn't make up its mind whether to go with the more 'mundane' political theme or revert to the fantastical. The 'fantasy' element (Giruvegan, Mist, etc...) felt tacked on, and I had no real inkling of why these things existed in the world...why, indeed, magic existed... Contrast that with VII, where the materia system ties in perfectly with the story's explanation of the physics/metaphysics of the world...

And one major and one minor niggle with the battle rewards:

Minor: what's the point in being given the most powerful sword in the game once you've already beaten everything? Upon whom do I use it, then?

Major: the Zodiac Spear. Either you randomly opt NOT to open a certain chest early in the game (I mean, come on, who goes around not opening chests?!), or else you are given a ridiculously minuscule chance of getting it as random loot in the Henne Mines. The probabilities on some of the best random loot were way too punishing. I'd rather they made it non-random and introduced some element of skill to getting it...

Since I don't play with walkthroughs until I've beaten the game and want to see what I missed, I had no chance to get it. And it's not like I want to play the game again just for that...

Those are my main issues with XII. Overall, it was a pretty big let-down for me, despite quite liking the new battle system.



As for the remake of VII, I'm still not convinced that I want it. If they didn't change anything, would there be any point? And if they did, would I like what they had done, or would I consider it sacrilege?

^_^

I'm definitely excited about Versus, though...despite the fact that I still know very little about it. Hopefully it will be the long-awaited game that breathes new life into the franchise.......

...assuming XIII doesn't. I'm still hopeful, as always, that it will be awesome, too.


Part of me would be sorry to see the turn-based system go, but part of me would love to see something more fluid take its place -- as long as the strategic element wasn't lost in the transition.

 

[Commonmind]

I appreciate that Seph.

And grumbler? Guilty as charged. I get even grumpier as the years go by too -- turning into a cliche, and wondering why I can't seem to hedge all the strange change in behavior; I can't stand contemporary music (although, really, who can? I'm not the only one here, and I'm betting that isn't the senility talking), I walk into most clothing boutiques with the taste of bile in my mouth -- wondering what the hell in the place is going to look relevant on me, despite how relevant the overpriced crap hanging on the racks might be. I'm much more averse to adventures; I rarely leave the house unless I'm coaxed out with the promise of rewards, and the idea of riding a roller-coaster seems suddenly risky. I buy only one type of shoes, although I own several pairs of said footwear, and if I had my way I'd wear a t-shirt that said (in a polite tone of voice), "Beware precocious children: Conversation reminds me the use of blunt objects and cold storage are mutually inclusive."

Oh, and for some strange reason, it's harder to pee.

The Zodiac Spear thing, how frustrating. And walking around that endless maze of a dungeon for hours, hunting down some of the better items in the game, only to realize how fruitless the efforts were, was not high on my list of memorable past-times.

As for the FFVII redux, you should read the article 1up wrote on the very same subject several weeks ago (I believe it was either 1up or IGN, and unfortunately I'm too scatterbrained to find it at the moment), who said very much the same thing, further detailing how some of the games quirkiness and charm simply wouldn't translate well in a more (visually) detailed environment. I tend to agree with this somewhat -- some things are more forgivable...scratch that, some things are more enjoyable when the imagery is disproprtionate or somewhat comical.

 

[Sephiroth]

Well, bear in mind I only said I don't grumble about FVII.

I wouldn't want you to get the wrong idea about me, since I'm a right cantankerous barsteward the rest of the time. As my comments on FFXII probably demonstrate. And hey, at least you go into clothing boutiques. I'm not sure I've ever been in any place that could be described as a 'boutique' -- that all sounds a bit up-market for little old moi. *grins*

Oh, and don't even get me started on contemporary music. ;p

And I had to laugh at your comment about the shoes. Let's just say snap, and leave it at that. ^_^


You mean the Pharos? Yeah, that lent a less enjoyable meaning to the term 'grinding', IMO. Often I enjoy what people call grinding, but that place felt like an effort.

I'm not sure if I found the article you alluded to or not. I found a short piece on IGN about 'five necessary remakes', where FFVII is the first mentioned, and the major points mentioned are (1) graphics/art direction -- how would it be dealt with? and (2) battle system -- would the old turn-based system be acceptable to today's audience?

They say the narrative needs no changes, and I agree with that, but they would have to be very careful. The dialogue would surely change (it would have to, I think...), and wouldn't that risk changing the narrative? Not the broad shape of it, perhaps, but the subtler details?

It could be a triumph, I suppose, but it might equally be a disaster, and that's what worries me.

We live in an age, however, when the classics are seldom left alone.

 

[Altrion]

For me, every since FFVIII I haven't really had any interest in the FF-series. Almost all of the games I-VIII have this charm about them that make them playable, even with the lack of graphics that came with the earlier games.

It was like they focused on the story and game play back then. They made it enjoyable. They made us WANT to play the game for as long as humanly (and inhumanly) possible. But now it is like, the FF-series has fallen onto the graphics bandwagon just like everyone else. All they want to do is try to shock us with stunning graphics, spending all of their time on making it more shiny and less time making us WANT to be immersed.

Not only does the game-play seem to get shorter, the more amazing the graphics become. But that originality that lured us to play these crazy games in the first place, is slowly slipping away and being replaced with mediocrity.

You have to ask yourself really. When did "Good Enough" suddenly become good enough? :\

 

[Noah Phoenix]

Unfortunatley, the major factor in whether or not they would remake FFVII will be money. The fact that original has done better than even SquareEnix predicted on the very-quickly-and-worryingly-catching-up-with-XboxLive-PSN, I fear that whether or not the art direction will be a problem or not could well be a moot point.

The look and feel of the game was what made it what it was, if it was made today it would simply fade into the background as just another grinding JRPG, IMO.

 

[Cayal]

You know what really surprised me about Final Fantasy VII, after playing it many times over the past decade or so I just realised this, and the game being 3 discs...there are no loading times at all.

 

[Commonmind]

I use "boutique" because that's what my mother used to call any store selling a specific item. Trust me when I say, I spend very little cash on clothing. It's Old Navy, American Eagle, Target, and the like for me. Occasionally, I will indulge in some pricier clothes, but only when I've come to a point where I need to replace an older, equally-as-pricey piece of clothing that has worn its way into the trash pile.

A pair of 60 dollar jeans, for instance, which I might replace once every four years, compared to a 20 dollar pair I will inevitably replace much sooner.

I can't find the FFVII article myself. Not for lack of trying, either. I spent a solid hour searching the site, to no avail. It's too bad, too, because it was a good read.

As for the narrative, I'll stick to my guns, (perhaps) reiterating that I still believe it to be relatively cliche. Because I found it to be so rudimentary, I think it would actually be rather difficult to change the narrative, even by drastically changing the dialog. If you'll forgive a poor analogy: I would equate this to painting a square wall twelve shades of red and then throwing wallpaper over the fresh paint. The wall is still square.

However, I think by changing the dialog they will change a large part of why so many FFVII fans -- whether they'll admit to this or not -- fell in love with the game: it's charm (oh, the irony!). The strange thing is that if they don't change it they'll end up with something that may come off as being largely satirical; it's easier to buy into cross-dressing party members, celebrating the death of a romantic interest by snow-boarding down a mountain, or racing Chocobos for endless hours, while staring at disproportionate characters -- without voice, or even expression, to lend them realism.

And that's interesting, Cayal. I may actually have to dig out the old PSOne to check that out. I don't remember loading times being an issue either, and I usually do remember that sort of thing when it comes to RPGs (I'm looking at you Lost Odyssey!).

 

[Sephiroth]

I get you. Here, 'boutique' has a certain, more up-market connotation, is all. Heh. But I'm very much the same, even with the jeans (they tend to be more expensive). And most of my clothing literally has to wear away before it gets replaced. ;p

Anyway, I forgive your analogy (and your opinion of the narrative...). ^_^ I don't disagree, really, since as I said above, I feel that a lot of the best stuff in the game is between the lines.

And yes, the charm is something I also mentioned, and it's hard to see how it could be preserved. Of the elements you mentioned, I think the chocobo racing would still work fine (I think it makes sense, in the context of the world, that they race chocobos, and well-rendered chocobos could look great...even in XII, I thought they looked awesome -- fearsome, almost). But the quirkiness of the mission to infiltrate the Don's mansion would certainly not work, regardless of what they did with the dialogue. And the snowboarding bit....... It's funny, because I tend to take that as just a metaphor for how they really got down on to the Great Glacier. If you consider it a literal part of the storyline, then of course it makes no sense, and it would be incongruous in a more visually realistic setting.

Any remake would require such a serious overhaul that, for me, it wouldn't be FFVII any more.

 

[Commonmind]

I think we split hairs (amiably, of course), and it's funny that we continue to do it, because we largely agree with another on most points where VII is concerned -- despite feeling different about the overall experience.

And it's funny, because we've all seen the FFVII PS3 demo, and have heard all the rumors, but no one has ever considered the possibility that a remake could still be relatively close to the original in its presentation and design, faithful to it, without the hyper-realism. It's possible SE may just clean up the dialog, plug up some of the holes where necessary and give a slight nudge to the visual department (I'm thinking what Super Mario All-Stars is to the original).

Without a doubt this would please both sides of the fence (I assume). We'd have our improved engine -- for those of us who like our older games to progress with us as we age -- without upsetting the purists in all of us.

 

[Cayal]

I wouldn't mind seeing it improved visually from the FFVIII point of view. You could see Squall running, it was more lifelike in that respect.

 

[HareBrain]

As for me, I would never try to claim the story is perfect (honest... ;p), but as I said above, I think the whole hangs together well, despite whatever flaws there are. IMO, it transcends the flaws. I always felt like each character had a story I cared about, and that those stories fitted in well with the overarching plot (both the Shinra/environmental and Jenova/Sephiroth antagonist threads). Everything came together well as the story progressed, and crucially, what I was doing at the end of the game felt relevant, I felt as if I had been led there from the very beginning.

Great summary, Seph - I always thought that it was the interweaving of the two main threads - Shinra-v-planet and Cloud-v-Sephiroth - that made the story great. It's the only FF game I've played more than once. To contrast, I found the whole Ultimecia thing in VIII baffling - the main boss, and she just seemed to come from out of nowhere - and the same goes for whatever-it-was at the end of IX, which was even worse.

I've read some reviews of VII on Amazon, and it seems that even younger gamers who've recently played it for the first time have fallen for it, so I don't think its charm is wholly that we played it when there was nothing else like it around (oh, those days when the first Gran Turismo, Tomb Raider and FFVII came out seemingly within weeks of each other - such times will never come again!!)

And for me, that moment when Sephiroth shows them the photograph at the northern crater blew me away emotionally - I literally couldn't breathe. No other game has ever produced a moment like that. Cloud might be a cliche, with his amnesia, his tortured past and his personality disorders, but he is by far and away the best of his type. And the music! The soundtrack album (admittedly edited) is still one of my most-played when I'm writing.

Anyway, enough, or I'll persuade myself to get it out and play through it again. There must have been some materia I didn't get last time ...

 

[Commonmind]

Part of what you said goes back to an earlier post I made about age being a large factor in how we perceive and judge a particular experience. So I'm not entirely surprised that new, younger gamers are having similar experiences with FFVII. What I meant above was not so much that the younger generation has become more sophisticated in its own tastes, but that we have. To give an example, had I played FFVII much later in life -- say, now -- I might be even more critical than I was when I initially experienced it. Same thing goes for VI.

 

[HareBrain]

That might be true, CM, but I was thirty back in '97, so not that young. I'm not sure how i'd react to it now - certainly I'd be less patient with the random battles and a lot less tolerant of the dreadful dialogue translation, but I still think I would very much enjoy its story and characters. But I might be fooling myself.

 

[Sephiroth]

Blimey, CM, you're right. I hadn't considered the idea that they might just do a 'Mario All-Stars' on it. That, of course, would be most acceptable. For some reason, I had only been thinking of a major overhaul (which, as you know, scares me).

As for splitting hairs, well...it's one of the things a pedant does best.



HareBrain, I agree with everything you said. The end bosses of VIII and IX (particularly the latter, as you say) are indeed baffling, and seemingly unrelated to the plot. Ultimecia less so, perhaps, since they do at least try to shoehorn in a bit of story not long before you have to go and confront her, but as for Necron, well... I believe the popular internet acronym is "WTF?!!!!!1111111111"

And yes, '97 truly was a golden gaming year for me, too. (And I await GT5 with none of the questions/mixed feelings that I have concerning FFXIII. I can't wait for either, but I know the former is going to be awesome. Then again, Polyphony doesn't have a plot to worry about. And Ferrari! At last!!!)

The scene at the Northern Crater is one of the most memorable for me, also. (And I was, as is well documented elsewhere, profoundly affected by Aeris' death...)

And the music! The soundtrack album (admittedly edited) is still one of my most-played when I'm writing.

You, too? I wonder how many of us there are?!

At least you edit it. I listen to the whole thing, more often than not. Although I have (many) favourites that I like to play repeatedly. It's very inspiring. Uematsu is a genius, IMO. The soundtrack is a work of art in its own right, and the way it captures (having helped to create) the mood of the various scenes and locations in the game is wonderful.

There must have been some materia I didn't get last time ...

Lucky you, if that is true. I even got to the point where, having maxed out my characters at 99, I was going around morphing the appropriate monsters into sources so that I could continue to increase their stats up to the maximum of 255.




CM, while I still think you have a point, in that our general expectations of games now are different, we tend to make allowances for the fact that a game is older. I only played FFVI for the first time a couple of years ago, and I absolutely loved it. If you mean that, had one of these games been a new release this year, then my opinion would have been less favourable, then you're undoubtedly right. Like HareBrain, though, I think I'd still enjoy the story and characters, it's just that the gameplay elements would seem somewhat dated.

 

[HareBrain]

At least you edit it. I listen to the whole thing, more often than not. Although I have (many) favourites that I like to play repeatedly.

I'd be interested to know them. I love the Main Theme, Great Northern Cave, Anxious Heart and You Can Hear the Cry of the Planet; but the most spine-tingling for me are Who Am I?, Who Are You?, and On This Day Five Years Ago, all to do with Cloud's messed-up mind - not sure if the effect is more from the music itself or the association with those parts of the game - probably both. Dammit though, almost all of it is brilliant. Birth of God often goes through my head when I'm cycling - I'm sure it makes me go faster!

But in terms of its wow-effect during the game itself, there can be only one winner: J-E-N-O-V-A!

 

[Cayal]

Sorry but that goes to One Winged Angel.

 

[Commonmind]

That might be true, CM, but I was thirty back in '97, so not that young. I'm not sure how i'd react to it now - certainly I'd be less patient with the random battles and a lot less tolerant of the dreadful dialogue translation, but I still think I would very much enjoy its story and characters. But I might be fooling myself.

I should've clarified, but I wasn't trying to say that an older gamer in 97 would've thrown their nose up at FFVII. It was the only thing like it during its time -- at least in the console market -- and was thus the quintessential RPG experience.

I believe younger gamers continue to enjoy the experience now because it's easier for them to buy into, and that those of us who played VII at launch have become more sophisticated (as you've alluded to yourself) as we've aged.

Not sure how much sense that makes -- I'm a bit under the weather

 

[Commonmind]

CM, while I still think you have a point, in that our general expectations of games now are different, we tend to make allowances for the fact that a game is older. I only played FFVI for the first time a couple of years ago, and I absolutely loved it. If you mean that, had one of these games been a new release this year, then my opinion would have been less favourable, then you're undoubtedly right. Like HareBrain, though, I think I'd still enjoy the story and characters, it's just that the gameplay elements would seem somewhat dated.

Yes, exactly. Take Dragon Quest IV for instance. I just recently played through it on the DS -- having neglected the PS2 import for a while now -- and I thoroughly enjoyed it. However, had it been released as DQIX, if SE had told us "Here, this is our new Dragon Quest product," I would've scoffed at them.

 

[HareBrain]

Look what you've done, I've now become a FF7 obsessive! I even looked out the trailer on Youtube, and still got almost the same thrill from it as when I watched it before the game came out. How epic does it look? And really well put together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IatP3CVttO8

 

[Cayal]

Except it contains a monster amount of spoilers, lol.

Aeris, Rufus just to name two.