Why wouldn't Gandalf send the eagles with the Ring to Orodruin?

[Arwena]

This is a fascinating question. Thank you to HareBrain for pointing out Tolkien's Letter 210.
This is simply my own take on it: The great concern of Tolkien was power. Power corrupts. The ring was sought by the great evil power, Sauron, but could only be destroyed by someone without power, the weak hobbit Frodo. Gandalf observes this explicitly in the Council, that it is the only hope of "getting under Sauron's radar". The temptation to power is why Gandalf will not handle the ring. So I would say this is the story, though I'm not sure that was what Tolkien was getting at in Letter 210, the human story of how weakness defeats power. Of course, in the story Frodo is really a failure. He doesn't destroy the ring, he succumbs to its power, and needs to be saved by outside forces. When Frodo is entirely lost and defeated, then the eagles raise him up from death (they also snatched Gandalf from captivity). This seems to be to be a kind of "deus ex machina," which is usually condemned as a very poor plot device. However - I think - in the LOTR it is used as it should be, because in reality human beings fail and need rescue. I must admit personally that I shed a tear when I read "The eagles are coming! The eagles are coming!" because it's the climax of the story. and it is a "whopping good story!!! "
Tolkien was a Christian, and while he said that his works were not a preachment (as C. S. Lewis' often are), nonetheless it is the world in which he lives and the language that he uses. St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1, 27, "the weak things of the world hath God chosen that he may confound the strong," and that's what the whole LOTR is about. Tolkien uses the eagles to snatch out of desperate circumstances, and this theme of God snatching people from dire straits is a frequent theme in the Old Testament (for example, Exodus 19, 4 and Isaiah 40, 31). Tolkien certainly knew of these passages.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Perhaps the most succinct answer is that it wasn't Gandalf's job to choose the Ringbearer.

But this isn't the topic at hand. In the scenario of the Eagles taking the Fellowship to Mount Doom, Gwaihir was going to be Ringbearerbearer. Frodo was the Ringbearer, and Gwaihir his mount, in a way. Also, in letters, Tolkien referred to the eagles as a dangerous device, but you should not think of that as an "in-universe" comment. I believe that he meant it in such a way that it would shorten the story dramatically. Indeed, if someone just chucked the Ring off Gwaihir's back a week after leaving Rivendell, it would skip so much.

 

[paranoid marvin]

I think perhaps the answer would be that Sauron would have anticipated and guarded against all conceivable methods of attack. A human/hobbit on the back of an eagle would be made short work of by a patrolling winged Nazgul.

The only unexpected method of entering Mordor would be a single or small group of individuals ; after all the only practical way into his domain was through his front gate , and that was well guarded so there was no chance of that ever happening , was there?

 

[HareBrain]

A human/hobbit on the back of an eagle would be made short work of by a patrolling winged Nazgul.

But the Nazgul would have taken a long time to return to Mordor with their horses destroyed, and the eagles would probably have got there beforehand if they'd set off in reasonable time (depending on how long it took to get a message to them).

 

[Dozmonic]

Who knows how long the winged mounts were being trained, or how many they had?

 

[Pyan]

Whereas it's an interesting discussion, I would have thought that the real answer is contained in the original post by Siberian:

what would the book be about?

About twenty pages long...

Tolkien did think of it and mentioned it in his letters. As I recall, he said that the eagles were too dangerous to be used in that way.

I'm not being pedantic, but this is a slight mis-quote, giving a wrong impression of what JRRT actually meant. The actual quote, from Letters #210 is:

The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness.

(my emphasis)

JRRT obviously realised the danger of using such a deus ex machina; there is no real defence against a species as mighty as the Eagles and their power of flight, and deliberately avoided bringing them to our notice for nine-tenths of LotR.
There are several places where a fast, unstoppable transit of Middle-earth would have been extremely handy - the race across Rohan by Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, the ride of Gandalf and Pippin to Minas Tirith, the trip through Moria: all these would have been so much easier, quicker or avoidable with a handy aerie of Eagles to provide transport and escort.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

It seems to me that many of those who say, "Why not the eagles?" are viewing the eagles solely as a handy plot device.

But the eagles are independent and very proud. Elrond couldn't just get a message to them, expect them to send a representative or two to the Council, and then hand over the Ring with instructions to take it to Mordor and destroy it. If they did come, could he trust them? Would they do it? Would it really be the best way to sneak the Ring into Mordor and all the way to Mount Doom?

I think the answers (in order) are, "not enough*," "maybe," and "no."

Frodo, on the other hand is trustworthy, willing, and, let's face it, who better than a Hobbit if you want a reliable person to do some sneaking around? Why else did the Dwarves choose Bilbo for their burglar?

Eagles, on the other hand, are highly visible. Moreover, they would hardly be a familiar sight over Mordor, since it's so bare of life they would never hunt there. If an eagle flew over Mordor it would instantly attract attention. And very hostile attention, because Sauron must certainly bear a grudge against them for their ancient association with Manwë. Once an eagle crossed the mountains or flew over the Black Gate, every effort would be made to bring it down. The Nazgûl weren't there, of course, but it's a big assumption that Sauron had no other resources capable of handling an eagle, and a bigger assumption to suppose that, if he didn't, those at the Council would have certain knowledge of that fact.

*Tolkien says

... the ancient race of the northern mountains were the greatest of all birds; they were proud and strong and noble-hearted.[

But noble-hearted Men are not immune to the lure of the Ring (see Isildur, Boromir), so that's no guarantee that the eagle's would be any better at fighting off the temptation, and their pride definitely makes them vulnerable.

Of course they would reach Mordor very swiftly and there wouldn't be much time for the Ring to tempt them. But how long did it take Isilidur to give in to the temptation? As far as we know he didn't hestitate at all.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

It seems to me that many of those who say, "Why not the eagles?" are viewing the eagles solely as a handy plot device.

But the eagles are independent and very proud. Elrond couldn't just get a message to them, expect them to send a representative or two to the Council, and then hand over the Ring with instructions to take it to Mordor and destroy it. If they did come, could he trust them? Would they do it? Would it really be the best way to sneak the Ring into Mordor and all the way to Mount Doom?

You are implying here that the eagles are somehow superior to everyone? I think that it was a big "so what?" situation here. Yes, we're asking you to risk your life by flying over Mordor and dumping the Ring in the fires of the Orodruin. But it's for the good of all. IUn fact, I think that the eagles have a debt to the others, seeing as they feature just three times by my account.

I think the answers (in order) are, "not enough*," "maybe," and "no."

Frodo, on the other hand is trustworthy, willing, and, let's face it, who better than a Hobbit if you want a reliable person to do some sneaking around? Why else did the Dwarves choose Bilbo for their burglar?

Eagles, on the other hand, are highly visible. Moreover, they would hardly be a familiar sight over Mordor, since it's so bare of life they would never hunt there. If an eagle flew over Mordor it would instantly attract attention. And very hostile attention, because Sauron must certainly bear a grudge against them for their ancient association with Manwë. Once an eagle crossed the mountains or flew over the Black Gate, every effort would be made to bring it down. The Nazgûl weren't there, of course, but it's a big assumption that Sauron had no other resources capable of handling an eagle, and a bigger assumption to suppose that, if he didn't, those at the Council would have certain knowledge of that fact.

Frodo was shown to be not entirely trustworthy as he was corrupted by the Ring in the end. He was willing alright, but why not send someone else? Dwarves are just as hardy, if not hardier. They might not be silent but they're small enough and trained to fight and avoid detection. Also, not to sound nitpicky, but it was Gandalf the troublemaker that declared Bilbo the burglar. In that sense, it's kind of a deus ex machina that Gandalf's predictions/hunches turn out to be true. Reminds me of an RPG rule... "Legends are always true".

As for the eagles being visible, I think you are forgetting the fact that during the battle for Minas Tirith, the Nazgul weren't seen as much as they were felt and heard. They always flew outside the range of the men of Gondor at that time. And as we know, the mounts of the Nazgul were as mortal as anybody else. So why couldn't the eagles fligh as high as them? I believe that point is kind of moot in that light. Also, if the ring had gone to Mordor on the back of eagles immediately, there would not have been beasts like that yet. If you remember, the first winged rider appeared roughly at the Dead Marshes. As for Sauron hating them because of their ties to Manwë, I think that's irrelevant. He hates all and wants to reign over them all. So singling out the eagles for that reason is not really a point.

*Tolkien says

But noble-hearted Men are not immune to the lure of the Ring (see Isildur, Boromir), so that's no guarantee that the eagle's would be any better at fighting off the temptation, and their pride definitely makes them vulnerable.

Of course they would reach Mordor very swiftly and there wouldn't be much time for the Ring to tempt them. But how long did it take Isilidur to give in to the temptation? As far as we know he didn't hestitate at all.

I think that the Ring chiefly wants to ensnare powerful beings. Isildur had Arnor and Gondor at his beck and call. Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf had great powers. What did the eagles have that other had not? Nothing. They can fly. Fine. But so can the fell beasts, mounts of the Nazgul in later days. I believe that the eagles were nothing a few arrows couldn't handle, even if it was "Dark Lord Gwaihir". As for Bilbo not being a powerful being, that's true. Neither was Gollum. But those were means to an end. It wanted to get closer to Mordor, I am sure of it.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

You are implying here that the eagles are somehow superior to everyone? I think that it was a big "so what?" situation here.

I have no idea how you received that idea from anything I wrote. I thought I made it clear that the eagles were just as corruptible as anyone else. However, they had their own business in Middle Earth, so I wonder how interested they would be in assuming the responsibility to take the Ring to Mordor.

Frodo was shown to be not entirely trustworthy as he was corrupted by the Ring in the end. He was willing alright, but why not send someone else? Dwarves are just as hardy, if not hardier. They might not be silent but they're small enough and trained to fight and avoid detection. Also, not to sound nitpicky, but it was Gandalf the troublemaker that declared Bilbo the burglar.

Your entire post is nitpicky, why balk at that one point?

The Council, of course, could not possible know in advance that Frodo would fall to the Ring at last. At the time they chose him, he had been shown to be entirely trustworthy.

Why not a Dwarf? If you are familiar with the rest of the history of Middle Earth, you are presumably aware that Dwarves, even the best of them, have a long history of succumbing to the allure of valuable things. I have never heard that Dwarves were trained to avoid detection. Perhaps you could point me to some passage that asserts this. Gandalf chose Bilbo, but the Dwarves were already in the market for a burglar, which indicates that they did not think they could be stealthy enough, and their acceptance of Bilbo would seem to show that they did believe that he could do the job in that respect. (They had doubts about his character in general, but were swayed by Gandalf on those points.)

If you remember, the first winged rider appeared roughly at the Dead Marshes. As for Sauron hating them because of their ties to Manwë, I think that's irrelevant. He hates all and wants to reign over them all. So singling out the eagles for that reason is not really a point.

The first winged rider did not appear in the story until the dead marshes. There is no indication that this was the first time that a Nazgûl rode on the back of a flying creature. In fact, I believe there is a line to the effect that the wraiths are called Nazgûl when they take to the air. Certainly before that point in the story they are always or mostly referred to as Ringwraiths, and the term Nazgûl comes to be used only after that.

There is every indication that Sauron was selective in who he chose to attack, based on grudges, what he thought to gain, whether he considered them a major stumbling block, etc. No doubt he meant to get around to everyone eventually, but until that point the idea that he would notice or bother with any other type of bird seems totally out of character. Malice was a large feature of Sauron's character, as it was Morgoth's and they both carried grudges and went to great lengths to prosecute them. He would surely have an eagle killed on general principles, whether he thought it was up to something or not.

As for the eagles being visible, I think you are forgetting the fact that during the battle for Minas Tirith, the Nazgul weren't seen as much as they were felt and heard. They always flew outside the range of the men of Gondor at that time. And as we know, the mounts of the Nazgul were as mortal as anybody else. So why couldn't the eagles fligh as high as them?

There is a difference between forgetting things and choosing not to compare dissimilar things. I'm not sure what the Nazgûl do or don't do has to do with the capabilities of eagles. We know so very little about the mounts of the Nazgûl, I don't see how we can possibly speculate on their abilities as compared to eagles. Nor does the fact that Men couldn't see the Nazgûl at the battle of Minas Tirith tell us what Sauron or his watchers would see or know when something flew over Mordor.

"Dark Lord Gwaihir".

I think you must mean "Windlord."

 

[paranoid marvin]

The eagles are starting to sound a little like a glorified taxi service!

I doubt (but may be proven wrong!) that an eagle would have the capability of carryring the Ring-bearer to Mordor for several reasons. For one , as I mentioned previously , they are seen as 'good' creatures . so would be attacked by archers as soon as they entered enemy airspace. There would also be Nazgul , and one can assume other hostile airborne creatures. As soon as the Eye found out a winged enemy was approaching it's boarders , the plot would be uncovered and the end would be swift. The eagles are fast and strong , but by no means invulnerable.

Secondly we know the Ring becomes a heavier burden the closer one gets to it's master - would the eagle carrying this package be no less weighed down , perhaps even to the point where flight was impossible?

Thirdly , the eagles aren't a taxi service , and I doubt even more that they would volunteer for a suicidal flight to Mordor. They may assist Gandalf in time of peril , but they are not his servants nor do they owe the men , dwarves , elves or hobbits of Middle Earth - whether good or bad - anything.

Finally , the meeting of the Council really decided nothing other than the fact that the Ring must someow be destroyed. By setting out on slowly , rather than on swift steeds , it allowed breathing space to decide on how the plan would be accomplished. Gandalf was also aware that the destruction of the Ring was not the only purpose of the Fellowship. By numbering Boromir amongst their ranks , there must also have been some intention to assist Minas Tirith in its defence against the enmy ; and of course Saruman's tower was also en route , where Gandalf had some unfinished business to attend to.

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

Lest we forget. On their own the Eagles wouldn't be able to take the ring to Mordor. How would they do it. It would have to be stuck onto a claw or feather. In other words worn. To tie it round the birds neck in such a way that it wouldn't dropped in flight and therefore lost again, would mean that the bird would have to dive into the lava to destroy the ring. Unless some passing orc could be persuaded take it off and jump in instead.

 

[Menion]

Lest we forget. On their own the Eagles wouldn't be able to take the ring to Mordor. How would they do it. It would have to be stuck onto a claw or feather. In other words worn. To tie it round the birds neck in such a way that it wouldn't dropped in flight and therefore lost again, would mean that the bird would have to dive into the lava to destroy the ring. Unless some passing orc could be persuaded take it off and jump in instead.

I'm sure they would be able to get a heroic little hobbit to ride an eagle to Mordor.

I think its just because the book would be to short if J.R.R.T had written it like that, and he probably allready had a whole lot of the story in his head way before wrote it, so he wouldnt want to make probably some off the best books ever written, a little short story about big birdies flying to a big bad mountain.

Ps.

probably some off the best books ever written

I know he didnt know it would get so big and famous ,but it was what he was aiming for,right?

 

[Arwena]

I'm sure that it would be easy to find a way for an eagle to carry a ring, but Menion is right, it would be a short story.

 

[Dozmonic]

It would also be easy to stop them. The winged Nazgul steeds (they didn't just pop out of nowhere, they would have been there being trained), an impromptu bolt of lightning, the burden of the ring and its corrupting power being related to proximity to Mount Doom (something nobody seems to be addressing when saying it'd be easy for the eagles). That's without devling deeper into the creations that lived within Mordor that may have been capable of interfering with the eagles.

 

[Urien]

Gandalf knew that Sauron had SAM missiles.

 

[HareBrain]

It would also be easy to stop them. The winged Nazgul steeds (they didn't just pop out of nowhere, they would have been there being trained), an impromptu bolt of lightning, the burden of the ring and its corrupting power being related to proximity to Mount Doom (something nobody seems to be addressing when saying it'd be easy for the eagles). That's without devling deeper into the creations that lived within Mordor that may have been capable of interfering with the eagles.

I maintain that all this stuff about Mordor's aerial defences is wild supposition. Maybe the winged steeds were being trained, but if their designated riders were still getting back from Rivendell, they wouldn't have been much use. And we see no sign of any combat ability in the book (one of them screams at Eowyn, if I remember right - big deal). Someone mentioned archers - any idea how high an eagle can fly, and how that compares to how high someone can shoot an arrow up into the air? No threat at all. An impromptu bolt of lightning? Is there any hint that Sauron can use such a thing?

Saying "I'm sure Sauron would have had something up his sleeve" without reference to the books isn't a strong argument, in my view.

As to the ring's corrupting power, with Frodo carrying it the ring wouldn't have been in contact with the eagle at all, any more than it was in contact with the other members of the party in a tight situation. Aragorn carried Frodo at one point, didn't he? (Or am I thinking about the film) and he didn't seem to feel its influence.

I put it to the court that in not using the eagles, Tolkien failed to take an easy opportunity to shorten the war and condemned thousands of Gondorians and Riders of Rohan to needless deaths. For shame!

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

Harebrain: Whilst I agree the appalling suffering that Old Tolky visited on middle earth can't be denied, after all he could have left them in blissful ignorance. ~There was no need to drag this evil doer back into the world at all.

I must take issue with your assertion that arrows can't reach the eagles. They would have been vulnerable when they came into arrow range to land. They also would have to hop up the mountain a bit and down the passage - assuming they could fit - and then as I said throw themselves into the fiery pit. Whatever they attached the ring to them with would have to be sturdy possibly chain so the poor old eagle wouldn't be able to take it off.

As for riding an eagle. Well Gandolfy put the mockers on that. By alerting the baddies to the possibility of that mode of transport he ruined any surprise airborne landings.

Which brings us to a massive hole in the plot of the book; one Ive never understood and what ruined it for me. Why. if you know there's a band of do gooders intent on doing away with you by chucking your ring in the fiery depths wouldn't you at least have a couple of thousand orcs amred to the teeth with every weapon under the sun stationed at the entrance to the bloody cave?

 

[thatollie]

Which brings us to a massive hole in the plot of the book; one Ive never understood and what ruined it for me. Why. if you know there's a band of do gooders intent on doing away with you by chucking your ring in the fiery depths wouldn't you at least have a couple of thousand orcs amred to the teeth with every weapon under the sun stationed at the entrance to the bloody cave?

Because the idea that someone would want to destroy the ring seemed impossible to Sauron.

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

Not so. He knew they were coming, he'd had reports he'd seen the hobbit and had blokes on dragons patrolling the sky nearby. He knew what it would do if they did destroy it and he knew they weren't bringing him an unexpected birthday present. He also knew about the secret passage because he had some guards guarding it. So why not guard against the aerial approach? Or have the last stand regiment standing by just in case?

 

[thatollie]

Not so. He knew they were coming, he'd had reports he'd seen the hobbit and had blokes on dragons patrolling the sky nearby. He knew what it would do if they did destroy it and he knew they weren't bringing him an unexpected birthday present. He also knew about the secret passage because he had some guards guarding it. So why not guard against the aerial approach? Or have the last stand regiment standing by just in case?

1. He knew they were coming,
Okay, but what makes you assume he knew what they were going to do?

2. he'd had reports he'd seen the hobbit
Seen the hobbit at Orthanc.

3. and had blokes on dragons patrolling the sky nearby.
But weren't they fighting the war of the ring at that time?

4. He also knew about the secret passage because he had some guards guarding it.
He had guards near it, at the orc stronghold.