Why wouldn't Gandalf send the eagles with the Ring to Orodruin?

With respect to destroying the Ring...

'But that he [Sauron] never contemplated nor feared. The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save for the undying subterranean fire where it was made -- and that was unapproachable, in Mordor. Also, so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought.' JRRT letter 131

Sauron rather feared a new possessor, who, if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature, could challenge him, overthrow him and usurp his place.
 
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I must take issue with your assertion that arrows can't reach the eagles. They would have been vulnerable when they came into arrow range to land. They also would have to hop up the mountain a bit and down the passage - assuming they could fit - and then as I said throw themselves into the fiery pit. Whatever they attached the ring to them with would have to be sturdy possibly chain so the poor old eagle wouldn't be able to take it off.

As for riding an eagle. Well Gandolfy put the mockers on that. By alerting the baddies to the possibility of that mode of transport he ruined any surprise airborne landings.

As has been pointed out, Sauron couldn't contemplate anyone wanting to destroy his ring. Even if he became aware of the ring-carrying hobbit approaching, he would have probably thought it part of some kind of attack, so the chance of him guarding Mount Doom from a landing by eagles is remote.

However, even if he did, something that no one has yet mentioned is that the eagles wouldn't have needed to land. Mount Doom is a volcano with an active crater - why not fly over it (when it's not erupting obviously) and chuck/drop the ring into the lava?
 
We're all forgetting something important. No-one, EVER, dropped the ring in on purpose. What would make Eagles any different?
 
1. He knew they were coming,
Okay, but what makes you assume he knew what they were going to do?

2. he'd had reports he'd seen the hobbit
Seen the hobbit at Orthanc.

^ In the 'Eye' Plus the baddie wizard knew what was going on and they were in daily contact - Not to mention wormy

3. and had blokes on dragons patrolling the sky nearby.
But weren't they fighting the war of the ring at that time?

No. They were searching for the hobbits at first on horseback and then later over the marsh when Gollem was leading them. Plus when the orcs caught them the leader said that all prisoners had to be taken to the big boss with all they carried. so they were expected.

4. He also knew about the secret passage because he had some guards guarding it.
He had guards near it, at the orc stronghold
.

Yes but that would have been useless against the eagle attack which I covered before.


With respect to destroying the Ring...

'But that he [Sauron] never contemplated nor feared. The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save for the undying subterranean fire where it was made -- and that was unapproachable, in Mordor. Also, so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought.' JRRT letter 131

Well this is where old Tolky just didn't understand his own plot. It beggars belief that someone who made a ring - shaped it and welded it in the fires - wouldn't be able to contemplate that it could be unmade in the same way

Sauron rather feared a new possessor, who, if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature, could challenge him, overthrow him and usurp his place.

Yes but that hadn't happened or he would have been out on his ear as soon as it was found. He knew it had been found because Frodobaby put it on and the ring wraith knew he'd put it on.



There is at least one example that seems to impy this, yes, however Tolkien defines the term Nazgul enough times but I don't remember a statement or implication that it is reserved for flying Ringwraiths. Also, elsewhere Tolkien's use of Nazgul does not appear limited to only when the wraiths are mounted upon flying beasts.

I always thought it refereed to the mounts rather than the rider
 
We're all forgetting something important. No-one, EVER, dropped the ring in on purpose. What would make Eagles any different?

Good point. So we'd need a second eagle carrying archers who would shoot dead the first eagle as it hovered above the crater debating with itself about becoming ruler of the world.

(Obviously the second eagle would have to be a bitter enemy of the first, but must have managed to keep this from the first so as not to be suspected. But, what with eagle politics being what they are, this shouldn't be too difficult.)

TEIN - nazgul = nazg ("ring") + gul ("sorcery"), and refers to the riders rather than their steeds.
 
TheEndIsNigh said:
I always thought it refereed to the mounts rather than the rider

I actually had edited my comments about the term Nazgul (just to focus more on Tolkien's statement concerning Sauron and the Ring), but anyway, Nazgul means 'Ringwraith' in the Black Speech (compare B.S. ash nazg...). Or, from Appendix B (SA 2251): 'About this time the Nazgul or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.'


Gûl means 'wraith' in the Black Speech, and: 'is probably from Sindarin gûl 'black arts, sorcery' (from JRRT's Words, Phrases and Passages)

TheEndIsNigh, can you please possibly fix your last post a bit? For better clarity I would prefer that you respond outside of the 'quote box' (no matter the colour, or the fact that your statements read like responses in any case).
 
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Good point. So we'd need a second eagle carrying archers who would shoot dead the first eagle as it hovered above the crater debating with itself about becoming ruler of the world.

(Obviously the second eagle would have to be a bitter enemy of the first, but must have managed to keep this from the first so as not to be suspected. But, what with eagle politics being what they are, this shouldn't be too difficult.)

TEIN - nazgul = nazg ("ring") + gul ("sorcery"), and refers to the riders rather than their steeds.

Well there you go. I wonder why it isn't nazggul but I'll let it lie. (makes mental note to buy a Middle Earth to English dictionary)

I think your devious point about the eagles is valid. Maybe it's because they were capable of this kind of treachery that they weren't given the task in the first place. Plus if you're flying such a long distance and have a handy packed lunch on your back....


Elthir: regarding quote etc. Apologies. Obviously in the heat of the lunchtime debate standards can fall below the ideal. Not an excuse just a reason. ~ Unfortunately it's too late now so again apologies.

However, I do tend to do my critiquing this way so as not to break the text with annoying boxes. I'll try not to for you.

Cheers
 
Well this is where old Tolky just didn't understand his own plot. It beggars belief that someone who made a ring - shaped it and welded it in the fires - wouldn't be able to contemplate that it could be unmade in the same way

Well, as Sauron himself made the One and had worn it, he arguably knew enough about it. He not only deemed it would be 'rather difficult' to get to the only place where the Ring could be destroyed (it took an extraordinary set of circumstances, with a strong dash of Hobbitness, to get Frodo to the Mountain), but thought the Ring would be amazingly difficult to destroy even had he cleared a path into Mordor straight to the Sammath Naur, for Frodo, or anyone else (like Isildur for example).

Considering all this, and the lure of power, the Dark Lord naturally expected someone to wield it, not try to destroy it. As I say: 'Sauron rather feared a new possessor, who, if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature, could challenge him, overthrow him and usurp his place.'

Yes but that hadn't happened or he would have been out on his ear as soon as it was found. He knew it had been found because Frodobaby put it on and the ring wraith knew he'd put it on.

Tolkien approached things quite realistically here in my opinion, and I would point to the full explanation in The Last Debate.
 
Sauron saw not hobbits approaching his domain , but Aragorn. The heir of Isildur was another weak Man , who would weild the Ring in order to topple his nemesis , and would make the same mistakes his forebear had - or so Sauron thought.
 
TEIN, Sauron didn't know they were coming to Mordor. As has been pointed out, Tolkien plainly stated that Sauron could not imagine anyone would want to destroy the Ring (he didn't just say this in one of his letters, it is stated in the book as the rationale for sending Frodo to Mordor). People (or Maiar, as the case may be) usually expect other people (or ... well, anyone) to do what they themselves would do under the same circumstances. Sauron is all about power, therefore, he thinks of other people's motivations in terms of the hunger for power. Certainly the idea of a Hobbit creeping into Mordor to destroy the Ring would have been ludicrous to him. (One reason why they decided it would be a good plan.) Once he realized the Ring was on the move, the natural assumption would be that it was going to Minas Tirith to defend the city, or to some other strong place from which to challenge him. This would also be Saruman's assumption. When Sauron saw Pippin in the Orthanc palantir, he was puzzled. Had Saruman betrayed him by taking the Ring for himself, or merely snagged a Hobbit for questioning? When he shortly thereafter saw Aragorn in the same palantir, what should he think but that Aragorn had taken over Orthanc and the Ring and was about to challenge him. But where and how? Will Aragorn go to Minas Tirith and save the city first? Or will he just hunker down in the all but impregnable Orthanc and challenge him from there? Isildur's heir--Ring--Narsil reforged--Orthanc -- not a pleasant prospect for Sauron, and he's not thinking much about Hobbits at that point. Seemingly, the Nazgûl he sent to Saruman cleared some of that up. But Saruman never had Pippin, he knows no more about the whereabouts of the Ring than Sauron does. He does, however, see Pippin and Merry in company with Gandalf and Aragorn. For all that anyone on Sauron's side knows (except the Wraiths at Weathertop, who have probably not been asked to identify Merry and Pippin from a photo-array by the Mordor police department) one of these two is probably the Baggins everyone has been looking for. No one has any reason to suspect that there is another Hobbit or two heading for Mordor, because Frodo and Sam were not there when Saruman's orcs attacked Boromir and took Merry and Pippin. Saruman may know there were other Hobbits in the party heading South, but he is clearly not telling Sauron everything he knows when he knows it, and even if he knows there were two more Hobbits, their journey when last seen was in the direction of Gondor. Everything points to Gondor. Again the focus is on Minas Tirith, and it is there that Sauron sends his army. He does not put any extra patrol on the borders of Mordor, which is what he would do if he suspected that someone was going to do the unthinkable after all and try to destroy the Ring at Mount Doom. The guard on the borders of Mordor is exactly the same as it has always been. As for Nazgûl searching the Dead Marshes for Frodo, I think you are confusing the book with the movie. In the book, Frodo, Sam, and Gollum are aware of one of them flying high overhead, and there is no reason to believe that it wasn't simply on its way somewhere else.


HareBrain said:
so the chance of him guarding Mount Doom from a landing by eagles is remote.

As I said before, any eagle entering Sauron's airspace is going to attract hostile attention. Sauron has spies everywhere, even among the birds of the air. The chances that an eagle could reach Mount Doom undetected and unattacked are also remote. In fact, now that I think of it, if Sauron did suspect that someone was going to carry the Ring into Mordor to destroy it (which he doesn't), he'd be just as likely to think that eagles would be involved as all the readers who have asked the question. Sending the Ring via eagle is just not the safe and sure method that so many readers seem to think it is. Yes, one could make a case for it -- but there is a stronger case for doing it the way the Council finally decided to do it. Most of the case against sending Frodo depends on things that were not done or known at the time of the Council. On the other hand, the reasons for not sending an eagle would already be plain to them.



As for a Hobbit or anyone else riding an eagle all the way to Mordor, or even across Mordor -- conspicuous, and probably hampering the eagle to the point that it is flying lower and slower. And while Sauron has not thought of an attempt to destroy the Ring up until that point, what else would he think of someone on an eagle flying toward Orodruin?



I think someone mentioned that the eagles were beginning to sound like a taxi service. It seems to me that in some of these arguments they are beginning to sound like the Middle Earth equivalent of UPS. But you don't just put the Ring in a package, address it Sammath Naur, Orodruin, Gorgoroth, MORDOR, hand it to an eagle, and the eagle drops it into the volcano a few days later.

And I think that if Tolkien had used the eagles that way in the book (which would actually have been a goodish size by the time Frodo gets to Rivendell -- and he never dreamed it would be such a long book anyway), for every person who thinks it was a mistake not to use the eagles now, there would probably be three or four who would see it as a cheap plot device.
 
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I know he didnt know it would get so big and famous ,but it was what he was aiming for,right?

No. He wanted something of the sort for the Silmarillion (which he wanted to become a new mythology for England), but I believe that by the time he wrote LOTR he had given up even on that.
 
And I think that if Tolkien had used the eagles that way in the book (which would actually have been a goodish size by the time Frodo gets to Rivendell -- and he never dreamed it would be such a long book anyway), for every person who thinks it was a mistake not to use the eagles now, there would probably be three or four who would see it as a cheap plot device.

I sincerely hope (and believe) there are vanishingly few readers (if any) who think he should have used them this way. It's fun to argue about whether or not this eagle mail-service approach might have succeeded, but surely no one can deny that it would have wrecked the story if they had been used. When all's said and done, LOTR is a story, and it doesn't diminish my appreciation for it one iota that it might contain some slight plot-holes, or that its author appears not to have considered an apparent "short-cut" for the characters' quest.
 
If anything , Sauron was emptying Mordor , with all of his armies heading out to fight. What forces were left behind were massed at the gate - the only way that a sizeable army could possibly attack.

After all , it would be complete madness for a small group to attempt to overthrow Sauron's stronghold from Cirith Ungol. Even then , there was a host of Orcs based nearby , and of course She would take care of any unwanted visitors.
 
Gandalf knew that Sauron had SAM missiles.

Sauron had his own Sam? Was the Black Numenorean called Sam, then? Or was there a little ork called Sam?
I AM CONFUSED.

Yes, I know they're surface to air missiles. Just messing.

All I am saying is:
1) At the time of the Council at Rivendell (not the White Council, the meeting with Elves, Dwarves, Men, etc), there were no Ringwraiths on Fellbeasts.
2) No arrow can kill the eagles for they are out of reach.
3) Lightning bolts? Is Sauron now a parlour magician?
 
Teresa: Re monster post above ^

Isn't this typical. There I am developing a nice scenario/sub plot about the need for Sauron to have guarded the entrance to the cave more than he did when what happens. Somebody comes along and hits you with a load of facts

It's not fair I tell you.

However, for me had he just transposed the orc's fall out and killing spree to another small fortress that guarded the approaches to the entrance the story would have been more complete. It wouldn't have needed much, just for Sam to trek after them from the pass to the new fortress and rescue Frodo there. The hill climb could still be in. The the fortress could guard against aerial attacks from it's tower but not be connected to the mountain, whilst preventing a land approach at the bottom of the hill .

If only Tolkien had had the benefit of the Chrons critiquing section he might have turned out a reasonable book with a plausible plot and possibly made a go of it.

Cheers
 
But it doesn't just stop with the eagles.

Why not send Galadriel or Glorfindel or Elrond to destroy the Ring? If you were Elrond, would you really say "right - I have power to withstand the Nine and I'm really good at giving orcs a kicking. I can sneak around in my elven cloak and be virtually invisible in it when I need to be. I understand the geography of Middle Earth and I know where I'm going. In fact, I've more or less been there before. I also have great willpower borne of long years of wisdom and of the fact that in the film I look a bit like a pointy-eared Brian Eno. If the sum total of our strategy is to send someone on foot into Mordor and hope that they evade capture for long enough to find the Crack of Doom, who do we send? Me? Nah. But who? Of course! It's been staring me in the face! What we need is some unworldy rustic peasant who's never waved a sword in anger and who's never left home before. Ideally, someone with no knowledge of where he's going or what he's going to do if he gets there. If he can't do it, no-one can!"

The point is that Tolkien was primarily writing a story of all of us - the everyman. We, the reader, are supposed to recognise more in the hobbits and the Shire than we are in the kingdoms of men. The hobbits dress and act like Edwardian gentlemen and live in a society not a million miles removed from what England Tourism to this day like to present as the quintessential image of Blighty - a soft, lush, rural, gentle land full of pretty inns, meadows, little rivers, sturdy farmhands and trim houses. By contrast, the men of LOTR are drawn from our far-off history - the Rohirrim are basically mounted Saxons, for example.

Whether or not LOTR was a continuation of the earlier attempts to provide England with a creation myth equal to those of Ireland and Wales is almost irrelevant. It is a story of the Little Man (literally) and how he can change the world. Using the great and the good to do the job for them was not in keeping with the book thet JRRT set out to write. Thankfully.

Regards,

Peter
 
Surely the 'pressence' that Sauron had would be enough to deter an eagle or any other creature possessing animal instincts from entering Mordor in the first place? A powerful hostile presence would surely be felt by an animal/bird's natural instincts.
Only after sauron had been destroyed and the Orcs had left the area was gandalf able to use the Eagles to fly into Mordor and look for frodo.

Well, that's my answer anyway.
 
Gandalf refudes the one ring - as well as Elrond and Galadriel. They were wise enough to know that they could not resist the tempation to power. In the end, Frodo also gives in to the temptation, but is saved because of the mercy he once showed to Gollum, whoforcibly takes the ring from him on Mount Doom and falls to his death, destroying the ring. That is what saves Frodo.
 
Explanation as to why Eagles weren't used to fly the ring to Mount Doom

Hey I've noticed some discussion about this but nobody has really come up with the answer...so I thought I would give my explanation...this is a long explanation so bear with me...

I think alot of you are missing the purpose of the Eagles in the overall mythology of the series. The Eagles in essence are a form of divine intervention. Let me explain.

For those of you who have not read the Silmarillion, I will briefly explain about Eru, the Valar, and the history of middle earth, and how this all ties into why the Eagles were not used as a quick easy answer to the ring. Still with me? Alright here I go...

So in the beginning there was Eru. Eru is the one true god of middle earth. From nothingness he created divine beings called the Valar who are angelic beings. Then Eru gave the Valar a song to sing, and this song was in metaphorical terms the creation and history of the world. After the song was sung some Valar entered the world to play their part in that history.

So when the Valar entered middle earth they created many things, mountains, plants, animals etc. But the only beings who were to be truly sentient in the world were Elves and Humans (Dwarves snuck into being sentient but that's a whole different story lol.) Only Eru can create truly sentient beings...

Now there are two theories about what exactly Eagles are. They are either the creation of Manwe (the King of the Valar) or a lesser class of divine spirts called Maiar. In either case they are under the rule of Manwe.

Alright so we have established that Eagles are divine or under the direct control of a divine being...so why did this divine being not just send the Eagles to help out the mortals? Other than that being boring as hell, there is actually a whole history of events that happened prior the the events of the Lord of the Rings that pretty much take direct interference from the Valar off the table...I will try to sum this up as quickly as possible.

1. Valar create the world, but one of the Valar - Morgoth (The first dark lord) always tries to undo their work. They finally capture him and chain him up for a while.

2. Elves awaken in the world. The Valar summon them to their home of Valinor where they will be safe.

3. Morgoth is released and starts corrupting some of the Elves (mostly this one dude named Feanor)

4. Morgoth kills Feanor's father and steals the Simarils the most precious jewels in the entire world.

5. Feanor is super pissed and pretty much tells the Valar where to go and leads his elves to middle earth to kill Mogoth.

6. Feanor dies but the Elves keep fighting being to proud to go back to Valinor and grovel to the Valar. Men awaken in the world. Some flee the shadow of Morgoth and join forces with the Elves, and others are corrupted and turn evil.

7. Long story short the Elves and Men are eventually driven to the brink of defeat by Morgoth.

8. Finally a guy named Earendil (Elronds Dad) goes to Valinor and pleads for the Valars help. So the Valar come to Middle Earth and defeat Morgoth.

9. So hooray everything is peachy right? Wrong, Sauron, Morgoths most trusted servant (also a Maiar) is still kicking around.

10. The Valar allow the exiled Elves back to Valinor, and to the Men who fought with the Elves and Valar they created an island called Numenor, and gave them extended life.

11. So for a while Men were all happy and great, but eventually they were kinda corrupted by Sauron and turned against the Valar.

12. So Men attack Valinor, but Eru then decides enough is enough. He sinks the island of Numenor and removes Valinor from the physical Earth. Pretty much saying this is the end of direct divine interfence...you guys are on your own.

13. So crap we're on our own, we'll be fine right? Wrong! Sauron is still around. But he is eventually defeated by Elves and Men, but not completely.

14. The Valar decide that middle earth still needs some help, so they send the Wizards who are also Maiar like Sauron...BUT THEIR IS A CATCH! The Wizards can't directly use their power, they are sent to Middle Earth to aid and counsel the remaining Elves and Men. Some do that (Gandalf) and others become evil (Saruman)

So in a nutshell the point I'm trying to get across here is this. The Valar on many occasions directly interfered with the races of Middle Earth, and it always kinda came back to bite them in the keester. They bring the Elves to middle earth, but then they are corrupted by Morgoth. They create Numenor for men and give them a long life span, but then men want more, and attacked their own gods. So after all that time they finally realized that the "Children of Eru" need to figure things out on their own. They still care for them, but they can't directly help them anymore.

The Eagles are only sent at the end of the novel to kinda give a little bit of a helping hand to the men of Middle-Earth. The races of middle-earth needed to solve their own problems, ergo it was their task to destroy the ring.

It's an allegory for our religious beliefs. God is there and he sometimes lends a little helping hand, but at the end of the day it's up to us to solve our own problems. If you are going through hard financial times, it's not enough for god to drop a big load of money at your feet, you have to pull yourself up by the bootstraps and work for it, and along the way he'll present you with help...

And that my friends, is why the Eagles aren't used to just drop the ring in the mountain....whew! haha
 
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It's a good try Zoboomaflo - welcome by the way - however, this again shows old Tolky lost the plot. If that were the case they would have been a neutral force and certainly not at the beak and caw of Gandolf when he was stuck up the tower with only his pet moth for company. Also old Saruman would have been aware of the threat of this divine intervention and taken sensible precautions - broken bottles round the turrets etc, to prevent Gandolf's escape - (another plot failing in my opinion - handy though if you've backed your hero into a corner).

I suspecked the real reason they weren't used is because of the exorbitant high price they demanded in grain, millet and sheep. Lets face it if you're beginning a war against a Dark Lord you wouldn't have the luxury to promise all your current and future food reserves so that a bunch of feather brained eagles could make a half hearted attempt to save middle earth. I suspect the council new that the Eagles true interests rested in a the war that was coming so there would be easy picking amongst the dead. Entrusting them with the ring would have been a disaster.

Once Sauron was defeated, the eagles, realising which side their bread was buttered, were probably force to help on more reasonable terms. You can have all the dead orcs for instance.
 

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