Defend Your Favorite -- SF or Fantasy (split off from "Race to 100")

Well, you now have the pleasure of my acquaintance, and I've changed my reading pattern from SF to Fantasy, and my reasons bear little resemblance to those you have postulated.

Indeed, I am pleased to meet you (formally, as I believe we must have crossed paths before, anyway). :)

I had no idea - I thought you were native to the fantasy camp. So what are your reasons? (BTW, my speculations weren't meant to apply to every individual - just that they might have some relation to some statistics.)

And may I ask (because it may really be relevant to the discussion) how old you are, and how long you've been reading SF?

Um, let's say I've been reading SF for over 25 years and I began within the realms of a conventional age. If that's too vague, I could consider tightening it up but hopefully that'll do. (It's a net thing - I'm not shy about specifics like that otherwise.) And yourself, if I also may?
 
To me, fantasy is just too inaccessible. After I read The Hobbit, I was done with fantasy and moved onto Foundation and certainly found it more inspiring. Couple this with the fact that science fiction in the other mediums - music and film - are able to draw my attention more so than what always seems contrived in fantasy. Modern science fiction is bogged down with the contrived, but there are a few gems to keep me with it ala Scott Bakker and Neal Stephenson.

Just a personal opinion.
 
After I read The Hobbit, I was done with fantasy and moved onto Foundation and certainly found it more inspiring.

If you are judging the entirity of the fantasy genre by The Hobbit, please, please, please don't! I want to assume that you'd read more widely before that, and Bilbo's tale was merely the last thing you read before giving up. But if not, I'd really suggest trying some more modern fantasy, which really bears no resemblance, in most cases, to Tolkien. And the good stuff, or any genre, isn't contrived. Perhaps you just hit upon bad examples...

And:

Science fiction... music? Come again?
 
I've been reading SF and Fantasy for 40+ years ... well, if you don't count things like The Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet, which I read in grammar school.

The reason I asked your age was because the shift from science fiction to fantasy had reached a point where it was noticeable enough that people (professionals in the field and hard-core fans) were discussing it by at least 1989, when my first book was published and I first came to be discussing such things with authors and editors, which means that the drift must have been going on for quite some time byt that point. SF was still selling better, but Fantasy was finally catching up to the point where SF writers were moaning that Fantasy writers were claiming too much of their shelf space.

So from my point of view, since I can remember a time when the most active and vocal readers in the genre were reading SF most of the time, and a time when there was (at least in some people's eyes) a perception that SF was mainly for male readers and Fantasy was mainly for female readers, and a more recent time when Fantasy is definitely in the ascendent (and very popular indeed with male readers), I do see what amounts to a mass migration.

There was a period of several years in my life when I had an enormous amount of time on my hands, to the extent that I was generally reading a book a day, four or five days out of the week, and most of those books were SF, plus I was working my way through my (new at that time) husband's large collection of Analogs, which was a magazine I was also buying as it came out each month. After that, I was still reading a lot of SF, but I was slowly switching over to Fantasy, until finally it came to the point where I was somewhat surprised to discover that I was hardly reading any SF at all. (Although it has never reached the point where I've stopped reading it altogether.)

So when I say that I rarely read SF, I say this as someone who has nevertheless read a vast amount of the stuff, even though not much of that in recent years. In fact, probably a lot more SF than many younger readers who read nothing else, but, due to that whole business of having a life, haven't had the opportunity to read as much, though no doubt they would have if they could.

Which brings us to the question of why I switched over. I don't believe it's because there was more Fantasy on the shelves, because at the time I was switching over SF was still more easily come by. And I wouldn't say it was because of the cheap, thrills, because action scenes are rarely my favorites. When I was reading SF, it wasn't for the gadgets or the technology or the concepts, it was because I was interested in how people -- not necessarily human people, I love well-written aliens -- reacted to and dealt with those technologies and concepts. Because anything that explores human nature and examines it from different angles and offers true insights into the human condition, well, to me that has a great deal more to do with reality and the possible, and the things that we really ought to know about ourselves and others, than any quantity of technology and science that might someday exist. And eventually I came to realize that I was getting more of that in Fantasy than I was in SF, and so that was the direction in which I gravitated.

Although, of course, I do like the sense of wonder, and the visiting other worlds and other times -- which is one reason why I'm not looking for all those explorations of human nature (etc.) in contemporary mainstream fiction.
 
When I was reading SF, it wasn't for the gadgets or the technology or the concepts, it was because I was interested in how people -- not necessarily human people, I love well-written aliens -- reacted to and dealt with those technologies and concepts. Because anything that explores human nature and examines it from different angles and offers true insights into the human condition, well, to me that has a great deal more to do with reality and the possible, and the things that we really ought to know about ourselves and others, than any quantity of technology and science that might someday exist. And eventually I came to realize that I was getting more of that in Fantasy than I was in SF, and so that was the direction in which I gravitated.

Well, it sounds like you may have been native to the fantasy camp after all, and just didn't know it at first. Science fiction's raison d'etre is the gadgets, technology and science and, to me, any literature that ignores that is missing something key about humanity. We are the tool using apes, the opposable thumbs, etc. Fantasy, it seems to me, either wishes that away, or addresses it unrealistically, or artificially halts it at some earlier stage than the present (not to mention the future).

(Not that that's all we are or that any thing has to address every thing all the time. The mosaic of partial portraits work together to present a fuller picture.)

I also find that a peculiar reason (or timing) to switch away from SF, as it's New Wave and later era SF that specifically cast out science and technology and turned to a sort of metaphysical inner space and also began promulgating the literary values that, to me, are often misplaced in SF. If anything, more recent SF more closely matches what you describe wanting than anything before. That'd be a reason to switch from fantasy to SF rather than the reverse.

In my time, fantasy was, in Bruce Sterling's words, SF's "small, squishy cousin... creep[ing] gecko-like across the bookstands," and Star Wars (while the sheerest fantasy) had partially restored a fascination with gadgets and cyberpunk was exploding and you could find Neuromancer in grocery store book racks (and find mention of it the mainstream press) along with reprints of Pohl and current stuff by Sheffield and so on - not to mention the bookstores. You could find SF magazines there, too, and Asimov's was even mostly SF and Analog could still win awards and circulation was several times higher than it is now. But all that collapsed in the later 80s and especially through the 90s. But I still don't necesarily see a mass migration. In authors, perhaps, from people back to Martin on up to people as recent as Zettel and too many more to recall, perhaps simply because that's where the sales are. But I'm not sure it's the case of readers. I think SF has probably lost many readers and fantasy has gained many more, but they aren't the same readers. The Harry Potter folks weren't generally Clement and Forward fans prior to the Pottermania.

I dunno - in the best scientific tradition, without hard statistics compiled from observed data, we're just kind of waving hands here.
 
If you are judging the entirity of the fantasy genre by The Hobbit, please, please, please don't! I want to assume that you'd read more widely before that, and Bilbo's tale was merely the last thing you read before giving up. But if not, I'd really suggest trying some more modern fantasy, which really bears no resemblance, in most cases, to Tolkien. And the good stuff, or any genre, isn't contrived. Perhaps you just hit upon bad examples...

I've read Wallflower series back in Elementary. I tried Piers Anthony which was my most recent sojourn into Fantasy. Can't say I was too inspired by his writing.

And:

Science fiction... music? Come again?

Electronic music (Jeff Mills, Carl A. Finlow, Vangelis, Richard D. James, David Flores) , modernist music (Gyorgiy Ligeti, Morton Feldman.)

Examples:

Silicon Scally (Carl A Finlow) - Proteus
Bytecon - Robots Ready For Mars
Jeff Mills - Metropolis Soundtrack
Gyorgy Ligeti - Atmospheres
Morton Feldman - Three Dances
 
Well, it sounds like you may have been native to the fantasy camp after all, and just didn't know it at first. Science fiction's raison d'etre is the gadgets, technology and science and, to me, any literature that ignores that is missing something key about humanity.

It's not a matter of ignoring it, it's whether or not it's to be the centerpiece of the story. As I said at the beginning, Fantasy is more character-driven. That has nothing to do with a denigration of science, as you said earlier, it's about putting the focus on human nature and human relationships.

It's funny, because so many SF fans complain about the magic swords and the magic rings in Fantasy, but they're just the trappings, and that's not what Fantasy is really about. But if the gadgets are what SF is about, as you say, maybe that's why some of the more hardcore fans are put off by Fantasy -- they're looking at the trappings and ignoring the real point.

Xelebes, when you say Piers Anthony, are you talking about the Xanth books, or some of his other books? And I've never heard about the Wallflower books; could you explain those?
 
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Rush's 2112 and the like, I guess. Ziggy Stardust. Rocky Horror. I dunno.

Vs. Rush's By-Tor and the Snow Dog, maybe. :)


Only a Rush fan would know about By Tor and The Snow Dog, J (count me among them).

Of course, Rush possibly parlays this very thread into an album's worth of content on Hemispheres (yes, I know it's really about the battle between heart and mind, but work with me here....)

Just my two cents, but I think that, as both genres continue to mature (a better word than "age"!), authors are borrowing elements from each when weaving their tales. Is Stephen Donaldson's Gap series fantasy or SciFi? And why aren't aliens (for example) in some cases simply a different way to express something that can't otherwise be expressed with science (ie, where fantasy uses magic [again, as an example] as a vehicle to express similar such content)?
 
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Teresa:

I am unworthy.

Sincere apologies

In my defence (pathetic scrivelling though it is) when you're tied in your chair in the dim light of a darkened, curtain drawn room, surrounded by the filth and squalor that builds up between the monthly hose downs my relatives have been reduced to arranging. I sometimes have trouble groping over the keys. Occasionally a fit will take hold as my bloated sausage like digits, grapple with the difficulty of pressing just one letter.

These fits are becoming more frequent, though I'm assured by the medics that the drugs will not have any permanent effects, well not within the short time we all have left at least.

I beg this explanation will, in some sad way, enable you to see it in your heart a way to forgive a low slug crawler, such as myself, for the grievous offences I have caused.

With hope, though precious little of that exists I know, I shall never offend in this manner again.

I go now to inflict several hundred harsh scourging that I'm sure will drive home the lesson that must be learnt.

Yours, with deep, unrelenting, waves of regret

TEIN.
 
Fantasy generally leaves me warm, science fiction generally leaves me cold.

A pretty paltry thing to say in the context of these well thought-out arguments, but there it is, and now I'm subscribed to this thread :p
 
TEIN, you are forgiven. (Just don't let it happen again, or, frankly, you don't know what scourging is ...)

Naturally, I can only speak on my own behalf. What revenge "Mifril" and his respected parent, Quantruth, may take on account of the opprobrium you have heaped on their heads (and by the way, I think that ought to be Miffril, but I'll leave it to the two of you to sort that one out) I dare not say. By all I hear, they are a hard-bitten pair.

******

Now here is a theory about why more readers have been steadily turning away from SF and toward Fantasy.


We live in a world where we are being taught more and more to depend on technology, where individuals really are convinced that they have to spend two or three hundreds dollars on a software program to wipe their noses (I was going to say wipe something else, but that would have been ... indelicate), knowing all along that in a few years time both the software and the computer will be obsolete and another outlay of hundreds of dollars will be required.

Is it any wonder, then, that so many people like to read books about people who have to depend on themselves, who are required to draw on their own resources of courage, determination, compassion, endurance, willpower, intelligence, self-respect, self-reliance -- books that remind us that we are not to be measured by the things that we own, but by what we are and what we do -- books that encourage us to believe that when something comes up that we can't fix with a new widget or a trip to the nearest electronics store (a divorce, a death in the family, caring for an aged and ailing parent, a serious injury) we might find within ourselves, if we dig deep enough, those same resources of courage, determination, compassion, endurance, willpower, intelligence, self-respect, self-reliance?
 
Is it any wonder, then, that so many people like to read books about people who have to depend on themselves, who are required to draw on their own resources of courage, determination, compassion, endurance, willpower, intelligence, self-respect, self-reliance -- books that remind us that we are not to be measured by the things that we own, but by what we are and what we do -- books that encourage us to believe that when something comes up that we can't fix with a new widget or a trip to the nearest electronics store (a divorce, a death in the family, caring for an aged and ailing parent, a serious injury) we might find within ourselves, if we dig deep enough, those same resources of courage, determination, compassion, endurance, willpower, intelligence, self-respect, self-reliance?

But, Teresa, wouldn't you agree that this is one of the major themes of a great deal of sf as well? The sort of sf which put technology and the dependence on it (rather than rather ambivalent feelings about it) at the center of things -- a la George O. Smith, for instance -- is a very tiny portion of sf as a whole; and even the "hard" sf writers have always delved into the human side of things, albeit sometimes as affected by some alteration in techonology and its social implications (again, frequently with some ambivalence).

And, of course, the older writers, such as Heinlein, dealt almost exclusively with the very qualities you denote above; these are at the very core of all Heinlein's juveniles, for instance, or Double Star, Stranger in a Strange Land, Beyond This Horizon, etc., etc., etc.; not to mention Leiber's work, or Brunner's, or Joanna Russ', or Tiptree's, or....

As I've said before, I think that the lack of good science education and critical thinking has a lot to do with it, combined with a resurgence in general in mystical rather than rationalistic thinking... though I do think this is due, in part, to the way technology has far-too-often been used to produce destruction in the twentieth century; an aspect of things which is often magnified in such a way to obscure the even greater amount of benefit we have gained from science and technology -- longer life-span, greater quality of life (generally speaking), a sharp decline in infant and child mortality, a broadening of possibilities with education, jobs, choice of where to live, what to eat, drink, see, hear; increasing access of communication between the individual people of the world (allowing for communities of people with shared interests who are physically scattered all over the globe, and thus potential -- and frequently realizable -- friendships which would have simply been impossible before); better, safter methods of transportation; etc., etc., etc.

But... alongside all these benefits has come knowledge which questions our place in the universe, and our uniquity even here on our home planet; not to mention the undermining of traditional religious paradigms whose authority has seldom (if ever) been so seriously questioned; the very nature of what we are as human beings has been called into question by the effects of increasing understanding of evolution and the role it plays in not only our physical but our mental/emotional makeup. We are not, I think, at a point where we can yet take this sort of thing with a great deal of equanimity, so a large number of people feel threatened by it and retreat from or deny it, turning instead to that which is emotionally comforting, but not necessarily based in truth or reality.

I would say there's more than a little truth to Lovecraft's statement when, in "The Call of Cthulhu", he has his narrator Thurston say:

The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go ma from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.

As has been noted before, this is not a deploring of science, but of humanity's inability to handle the implications of such knowledge; the damage such wreaks on our fragile little egos. And I would argue that this also has much to do with why we are seeing a resurgence of belief in various systems of magic and superstition which have long been proven to be without genuine basis in the workings of the physical universe. It is thus natural that such a trend would also see its reflection in the choice of reading matter, I would think.

Add to this the fact that an increasing number of readers, even, are influenced by what they see on the screen, and Hollywood -- never terribly concerned with scientific accuracy or intellectual rigour -- has always found it much easier to purvey either science fantasy (which uses many of the surface trappings of science fiction, such as spaceships, other planets/galaxies/dimensions/universes, robots, and the like) or fantasy outright; while the casual readers are influenced to an even greater degree. (And, in fact, when Hollywood has tackled "sf", it has been more guilty than any other outlet of promoting the emphasis on technology rather than the human aspect of the tale, as the "gosh-wow" aspect is much more visually exciting, however vacuous intellectually or emotionally.)

Put all these factors together, and....

As for me... I can't really say I have a favorite between the two, as I see both as perfectly valid and indeed excellent for addressing the human condition from different perspectives. (Though I will admit that I got more than a little sick of the preponderance of a limited stereotype of fantasy which virtually hijacked the field for such a period... something we now, thankfully, seem to be once again emerging from to see a wee bit more balance in allowing different types of fantasy fiction on the shelves.)
 
Why is Sci-fi not as popular as it once was? the cold war is over, the space race has slowed, scientists are looking in instead of up, biology is the new trend. IMO
 
Why is Sci-fi not as popular as it once was? the cold war is over, the space race has slowed, scientists are looking in instead of up, biology is the new trend. IMO

But science fiction has always had a large element of the sociological and biological to its makeup, from the stories of mutant supermen (A. E. van Vogt and Co.) to stories about different societies (Ursula K. LeGuin), to the moralistic/ethical tale (C. M. Kornbluth), to the religious paradigm (Walter M. Miller, Jr., James Blish). (These are, of course, only a random selection of examples; there are a myriad others to choose from....)
 
It's funny, because so many SF fans complain about the magic swords and the magic rings in Fantasy, but they're just the trappings, and that's not what Fantasy is really about. But if the gadgets are what SF is about, as you say, maybe that's why some of the more hardcore fans are put off by Fantasy -- they're looking at the trappings and ignoring the real point.

That's not what I meant. I wasn't saying that gadgets were what SF was about. I was including gadgets as the concrete realizations of science and technology and saying that SF was a fiction about a reality in which that worldview was paramount. Contrariwise, fantasy is not about orcs and spells, but is about a worldview in which that reality is denied (or transmuted into a higher truth as some fans might insist).

Now here is a theory about why more readers have been steadily turning away from SF and toward Fantasy.

We live in a world where we are being taught more and more to depend on technology, where individuals really are convinced that they have to spend two or three hundreds dollars on a software program to wipe their noses (I was going to say wipe something else, but that would have been ... indelicate), knowing all along that in a few years time both the software and the computer will be obsolete and another outlay of hundreds of dollars will be required.

Is it any wonder, then, that so many people like to read books about people who have to depend on themselves, who are required to draw on their own resources of courage, determination, compassion, endurance, willpower, intelligence, self-respect, self-reliance -- books that remind us that we are not to be measured by the things that we own, but by what we are and what we do -- books that encourage us to believe that when something comes up that we can't fix with a new widget or a trip to the nearest electronics store (a divorce, a death in the family, caring for an aged and ailing parent, a serious injury) we might find within ourselves, if we dig deep enough, those same resources of courage, determination, compassion, endurance, willpower, intelligence, self-respect, self-reliance?

I don't buy that one tiny little bit. If you don't get "courage, determination, compassion, endurance, willpower, intelligence, self-respect, self-reliance" out of Heinlein then you haven't read Heinlein. And while Heinlein turned his hand occasionally to fantasy, he was one of the foremost exemplars of pure quill SF. Ditto Clement. Ditto most SF in which man's reasoning power and ingenuity and capacity to comprehend are praised. Thinking otherwise seems to come from an essentially passive view in which non-scientifically inclined people think science is something done to them. Unlike fairy godmothers who do things for them and the magic trinkets people find in fantasy, space ships and rayguns (to keep the stereotypes even) are things made by us and understood by us and within our control. That is very much intelligence and self-reliance. To be prepared to "boldly go where no one has gone before" (to borrow a phrase) is very courageous.

Incidentally, your software reference makes me think of an interesting parallelism: Windows is fantasy (or horror) and Linux is SF. But that's a whole other subject.

Edit: sorry about repeating some of what j.d. said - I seem to have a problem keeping up with prior posts.

Edit2: Great post, BTW, j.d. - despite our identical Heinlein invocations, I think we're coming at slightly different angles, but it's still very interesting.
 
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But, Teresa, wouldn't you agree that this is one of the major themes of a great deal of sf as well?

Of the kind of SF I used to read, and loved to read, and that was to be had in abundance ... yes.

But that science fiction did not have as its raison d'etre the gadgets, technology and science.

But... alongside all these benefits has come knowledge which questions our place in the universe, and our uniquity even here on our home planet; not to mention the undermining of traditional religious paradigms whose authority has seldom (if ever) been so seriously questioned; the very nature of what we are as human beings has been called into question by the effects of increasing understanding of evolution and the role it plays in not only our physical but our mental/emotional makeup.

Along with all these benefits has come a dependence on technology that makes us feel helpless if we lose our cell-phones, that is breeding up a generation that believes it is too much trouble, when they want to research a subject, to go to a library or pick up a book when they can get some half-baked information off a website suggested to them by a perfect stranger on the internet, that increasingly believes technology will fix all the problems they might face, if they can just wait around for someone to come up with the right software.

This is a perilous misconception by which to live. We are, at this moment in our evolution, neither tool-making apes nor yet machines.
 
If you don't get "courage, determination, compassion, endurance, willpower, intelligence, self-respect, self-reliance" out of Heinlein then you haven't read Heinlein.

Ah, but I have read Heinlein. Please remember that when Heinlein was writing, I was reading science fiction on a daily basis.

My whole argument has been that this is what I used to look for in Science Fiction and that when I discovered there was more of it to be found in Fantasy (at least as regards the new SF and Fantasy that was coming my way) the more I turned toward Fantasy and away from Science Fiction.

You have said that in preferring stories that were character-driven I was probably always in the Fantasy camp to begin with. I don't think so, but I'm not going to argue that point. I will insist that whatever camp it is that I am in, my reasons for being there are for me to explain, and nobody else.
 
Along with all these benefits has come a dependence on technology that makes us feel helpless if we lose our cell-phones, that is breeding up a generation that believes it is too much trouble, when they want to research a subject, to go to a library or pick up a book when they can get some half-baked information off a website suggested to them by a perfect stranger on the internet, that increasingly believes technology will fix all the problems they might face, if they can just wait around for someone to come up with the right software.

But without science we are helpless before the dark of night, the cold of winter, the assaults of disease - things the medieval period, in which much fantasy seems to revel, had in abundance. Darkness, cold, and death. Science doesn't make us helpless, but empowers us. As far as it goes, fantasy has its technology - just arbitrarily arrested or invented. The wizard would be helpless without his spellbook; the warrior without his sword.

The misuse or over-reliance on relative trivialities like cellphones and software is one thing, but wanting to tell people to "hang up and drive!" isn't really a great reason to condemn science or read fantasy.

Ah, but I have read Heinlein.

I was sure you had. That was a figure of speech trying to underline the presence of the qualities you say SF lacks.

You have said that in preferring stories that were character-driven I was probably always in the Fantasy camp to begin with. I don't think so, but I'm not going to argue that point. I will insist that whatever camp it is that I am in, my reasons for being there are for me to explain, and nobody else.

Well, I guess we're at an impasse at this point. It has been stimulating but I somehow doubt we're going to convince one another and I think we've shared enough of our points of view to know where the other is coming from. If you and j.d. and others continue on, I look forward to that.
 

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