Defend Your Favorite -- SF or Fantasy (split off from "Race to 100")

Re: Science Fiction v Fantasy: Race to 100

But even you, an admitted reader of both, denigrate fantasy as 'cheap and quick thrills'. I don't know about anyone else, but that just seems to me to be the prevalent attitude across these boards from those who tend towards SF.

Whereas, of course, I've never said a bad word about SF. Certainly not in this thread. Just don't read back through it, mind, take my word for it.

No no thats not what I meant at all! I'm just not good with words. What I meant was with both fantasy and SF you can get cheap thrills but with fantasy its easier because its not dependant on the latest technology. Now you Cul say you've never said a bad word about SF and yet you had your little dig at Con earlier by saying you couldn't think of a good SF author to have a go back. But of course if you don't read SF then you won't be familiar with any authors!
 
Ohhh. This will deteriorate quickly. I don't see much defending going on, just scrapping an point scoring between the opposing forces. LOL.

I couldn't say why i like SF. I just do.
 
I don't know whether I'm with the People's Judean Front, or the People's Front of Judea, but certainly not the Popular Front of Judea.
 
Have to confess skip-reading most of the forgoing, so profound apologies for any repetition, deviation or ... um ... hesitation ...

First, I'm not claiming expertise, and you're unlikely to find any evidence for what I'm about to suggest, it's purely gut-reaction.

Post war, the big question was How is Science Going to Affect Us All? It was a question that resided in the common unconscious in the wake of the technologically scary progress made during the war which had given us jet engines, radar and world-destroying weaponry. The question was addressed by futurists and Scifi writers, warning us, alerting us and consoling us in pretty much equal parts.

Since the early days of Scifi, real-world technology has seemed unstoppable, the thirst for scientific knowledge unquenchable, but all the questions and concerns have remained essentially the same, and it's hard to keep writing the same questions without seeming repetitive. Hence the vogue for adventure stories with future-science accessories. Isaac Azimov could write about robots. Now we have robots. Clarke could write about space flight and planetary expeditions. They're a daily occurence now. It's getting tougher for people to think of what the next great techonolgical advance is going to be, because we seem to have them all already.

In a world where science is running ahead of itself, where all the doubts and concerns are familiar to every toddler, people are now starting to wonder exactly which values are important.

I think the search may be leading us back to human values and the power of Self. Modern thinking is definitely more biased towards the New Age than before. From the grottiest housing estates to the proudest castles, you can't throw a stone without hitting someone who knows someone who's a Reiki Level 1. Try it and see - and don't worry, they'll heal themselves. By the same token, and perhaps counter-intuitively, the groundswell is away from religious and theistic pursuits.

I think it's unlikely that humanity will eschew the technological in their real lives, but I think they might like to have a break from it occasionally in their fantasy (small f) lives. They look for heroes, as they always did, but maybe now they wish to find them in historical novels, in biographies and in fantasy fiction. Perhaps especially now, when scientists have explanations for everything and everyone is carrying around with them a computer more powerful than the mainframe at NASA in 1968, people need something to be amazed about, in awe of, shocked by and utterly perplexed by.

People always have and always will need to feel a sense of wonder; that there is Magic/Magick still in the world, however advanced we may wish to seem as a species. For a time the improbabilities of Scifi provided some hint of that. Now, though, the once-improbable is as real as a quark.

So send in the Orks.
 
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Hey!!! I'd be insulted if i didn't know what you were getting at. :p
 
As for shifts in readership, it can be easily explained by the fact that we have no technology wars going on. There is no race anymore so it doesn't hold one's interest for too long. Nowadays, the best sci-fi is written in the almost present sense because that is how fast we are racing.
 
Along with all these benefits has come a dependence on technology that makes us feel helpless if we lose our cell-phones, that is breeding up a generation that believes it is too much trouble, when they want to research a subject, to go to a library or pick up a book when they can get some half-baked information off a website suggested to them by a perfect stranger on the internet, that increasingly believes technology will fix all the problems they might face, if they can just wait around for someone to come up with the right software.

This is a perilous misconception by which to live. We are, at this moment in our evolution, neither tool-making apes nor yet machines.

Again, Teresa, isn't this exactly what happens with turning our backs on science, and relying on some mystical form of aliens, or gods, or spiritual forces, or fairies, or... what-have-you, rather than the rationalistic basis of science, which is that we can learn, and can understand, and therefore can make informed and beneficial choices and be empowered and in control of our lives and what sort of future we want to have. (Granted, we will never know or understand everything, but science -- and, by extension, science fiction -- offers a much more viable, workable, alternative in the long run than does the retreat to that which is based on what is comforting but -- also in the long run -- disempowering in the true sense.)

Again, this isn't a swipe at fantasy, which I also love dearly, and which I believe offers a great deal in better understanding ourselves, albeit from a different perspective than sf; but, as the question has arisen as to why the shift has come about, it is an attempt to investigate into the possible causes... and those causes, I think, go a lot deeper than this reliance on technology... which is something humanity has had since there has been any technology, from use of simple tools on. I still say it has more to do with: a) our feeling threatened because of the vastness of the picture we're beginning to get both of the universe and how it works and of our own evolutionary background and what it means about our place within the spectrum of life; and b) the increasing evidence that, while it will always be impossible to prove that no such thing as the supernatural actually exists, it is quite possible now to prove that, if such exists, once it enters into the physical universe and begins to have an effect, it would become subject for genuine scientific investigation... and that therefore, given that all such phenomena which have been rigorously investigated have proven to be lacking in substance, the likelihood of the supernatural (including gods, fairies, demons, devils, witches, ghosts, etc. -- and therefore souls, in the accepted sense) is becoming vanishingly small, and this, too (rightly or wrongly) tends to have the effect on people of making them feel somehow diminished; as, for one thing, it does make death final for the individual consciousness... and that's something that most people simply find too uncomfortable or frightening to accept.

Thus, you have a retreat from the picture the evidence presents -- which most find so unpalatable, not quite "getting" the point that it actually makes life and individual choice both richer and more meaningful within the human sphere (the only one which can ever truly count with us) -- and the preference for the more traditional, supernatural (and therefore fantastic), views of the universe... at very least aesthetically, and quite often within their "real" lives as well. (Which, I suppose, has a great deal to do with why both genres -- as well as all other genres, really -- tend toward the stereotype: in the end, the desire for "comfort food" in reading, as in everything else, is more strong in the majority than is the desire to be challenged, to grow and expand and come to grips with fundamental issues -- which invariably requires a questioning, at least, of favored stereotypes and traditional models.)
 
I'm sorry, but I'm getting the impression that I am being told that because people are no longer so interested in reading about futuristic (and often imaginary) science for their leisure reading this constitutes a wholesale rejection of science.

This is like saying that people who don't read romance novels have rejected romantic love and sex.

Reading about people who ride around on horses does not make people any less likely to use a car for their own transportation.

And postulating that people are turning away from science fiction because society is increasingly turning toward mysticism? Back in the sixties, when everyone was reading Tarot cards, and joining ashrams, and believing in fairies, science fiction was far more popular than it is now, when these same people have grown older and work in IT. (Back when I was reading Tarot cards and crystal balls, science fiction was far more popular with me.)

And the implication that people who don't read science fiction and prefer fantasy are all some sort of Luddites who have rejected the march of technology -- I don't buy it. Most of them are running around clinging to their little ipods and electronic devices. They adore technology. (I, on the other hand, am a bit of a Luddite. But I was no less so, and possibly more, back when I was reading science fiction every day.)

In the last thirty years technology has been steadily creating "needs" that weren't there before. It is creating dependencies that weren't there before. (And some of them complete trivialities, without which a growing generation would nevertheless feel stripped bare.) Far from rejecting these technologies, the vast majority of people are madly in love with them, and buying the latest electronic devices, the latest software, the latest digital what-have-you as fast as they can. It is not rejecting these things to seek some reassurance that, even though they love these things and will continue to buy them, they MIGHT be able to survive without them if they had to.

And I really don't understand why it is that science fiction people feel it necessary to explain why people read fantasy, here, on a forum where there are plenty of fantasy readers to explain it ourselves.

Can we not simply, each of us, say what it is that we find to delight us in our favorite genres, without sneering at the tastes of the people who find delight elsewhere?

Wouldn't this be a pleasanter thread if we could confine ourselves to that?
 
This is like saying that people who don't read romance novels have rejected romantic love and sex.

Probably correct.

And postulating that people are turning away from science fiction because society is increasingly turning toward mysticism? Back in the sixties, when everyone was reading Tarot cards, and joining ashrams, and believing in fairies, science fiction was far more popular than it is now, when these same people have grown older and work in IT. (Back when I was reading Tarot cards and crystal balls, science fiction was far more popular with me.)

Not quite that many. Just a lot of kids, really.

And the implication that people who don't read science fiction and prefer fantasy are all some sort of Luddites who have rejected the march of technology -- I don't buy it. Most of them are running around clinging to their little ipods and electronic devices. They adore technology. (I, on the other hand, am a bit of a Luddite. But I was no less so, and possibly more, back when I was reading science fiction every day.)

Familiarity breeds contempt.

And I really don't understand why it is that science fiction people feel it necessary to explain why people read fantasy, here, on a forum where there are plenty of fantasy readers to explain it ourselves.

Can we not simply, each of us, say what it is that we find to delight us in our favorite genres, without sneering at the tastes of the people who find delight elsewhere?

Wouldn't this be a pleasanter thread if we could confine ourselves to that?

Now you're 'aving a larf :D
 
My experience with the (younger than me)lads I work with is they'd rather read fantasy than SF! There's a sense that SF is full of technical details and you can only understand it if you're like James May. A geek. Of course it aint all like that. Mind you I am a self confessed geek and proud of it!
 
First, I'd like to clarify: No, I am not saying that

because people are no longer so interested in reading about futuristic (and often imaginary) science for their leisure reading this constitutes a wholesale rejection of science

I am saying that it is a symptom of a larger issue: the rejection of science (not technology, but scientific, rationalistic thinking; not at all the same thing), or at very least the denigration and grave distrust of it, fostered by numerous things mentioned in previous posts (as well as the media, which tends more and more to pander to exactly those lowest aspects of the human condition).

Nor am I saying that reading fantasy is bad; I am addressing the shift in popularity over the last 2-3 decades, and what I see, after a lot of thought, as probable causal links for that shift in interest. There are always reasons for such a sea-change in the arts, though they sometimes are difficult to identify, or may not be possible to identify until long afterward. But these are things I see as connected to that and (as I said before) since the question of "why" surfaced, I am adding my input to that part of the discussion.

There was never a sneer intended there; as you know quite well, the bulk of my reading tends to be in the weird or supernatural field these days and, though this is in part because it is all connected to that massive research project, I wouldn't be pursuing that project did I not find such literature worthy in its own right!

And postulating that people are turning away from science fiction because society is increasingly turning toward mysticism? Back in the sixties, when everyone was reading Tarot cards, and joining ashrams, and believing in fairies, science fiction was far more popular than it is now, when these same people have grown older and work in IT. (Back when I was reading Tarot cards and crystal balls, science fiction was far more popular with me.)

But the predominant society was still in the rationalistic, scientific paradigm at that point; the shift was appearing, but was by no means the majority until later. And, as I've noted, reliance and even an attraction for technology is not the same as science; modern electronic technology is a product of science, but the way it is viewed and used is much less so; it is itself often viewed in an almost anthropomorphic (and at times even with an air of the mystical and, to be honest, of mystification) way rather than with an understanding of the principles involved in either why or how it functions.

Therefore, as I have repeatedly attempted to make clear: No, they don't reject technology, but there is a general turning away from the rationalism behind the science which (among many other functions) provides the technology. This, in turn, is connected to the resurgence of various forms of mysticism, the increased acceptance of claims of "psychics" and the like (rather than being met with scepticism -- not the same as outright rejection, but rather needing good, thorough investigation before being given acceptance... the "extraordinary claims" bit); the "alien abduction" phenomenon, which is, in all essentials, simply a restating of the old "incubi/succubi" experiences of earlier times; the misunderstanding of even the basic facts of evolution and how it works -- let alone how it is supported not only by biology, but by dozens of other scientific disciplines, from paleontology to stratigraphy to medicine and genetics; and, most of all, the diminishment of rationalism and critical thinking themselves for a "populist" approach to science. Science ain't a democracy, and never can be. It isn't a matter of opinion, but of opinion based on demonstrable, verifiable fact (and which is open to falsifiability -- an uncomfortable paradigm at a time when people increasingly want certainty in their lives).

I am sorry if you feel offended by my posting my views on the matter; but, as I said, these are not off-the-cuff statements, but the result of many years of examining this shift -- not out of a wish to denigrate one genre or another, but out of a curiosity as to why such a shift was taking place. And the fact is that, as supported by numerous studies, the scientific method has been on the decline in education, and understanding of it, as well as critical thinking, has been seriously derailed over the past few decades, resulting in a lot of damage, such as (to pick one glaring example) the rejection of innoculations for various diseases based on false information, resulting in the resurgence of such diseases as smallpox and the like (with consequent rise in child mortality in regions where this has taken place).

Now, I'm sorry, but I'd be a liar if I didn't say that I see all these things as part of a larger pattern: the shift in preference for fantasy (which relies on the supernatural and mystical for the very structure of the universe involved) over science fiction (which stresses the ability of human beings to understand and influence, possibly even control, the world and universe around us by working within the framework of natural physical laws) is a relatively small and unimportant part of that pattern, but I do see it as such a part. It isn't intended as an insult, but an observation on relationships between larger cultural shifts and tastes in literature. That is all. In my posts, I've been attempting to examine some of the causes for such shifts in the larger sphere, and where they may be having an effect on these tastes.

As I have also said repeatedly, I cannot claim a favorite between the two, as I love them both equally; they provide varying approaches to the human condition, and neither is intrinsically to be more valued than the other; each has its faults and poor (or outright bad) writers, just as each has its sterling examples raising it to the heights of great literature. So I would hardly be issuing a sneer at lovers of fantasy, as I very much happen to be one! But this does not prevent me from wanting to understand these changes, or keep me from investigating them to the best of my ability; nor do I feel I need to apologize for posting my thoughts on the matter, as neither disrespect, insult, nor any other sort of invidious reflection was intended on anyone who reads either form of what is, after all, under the larger umbrella of fantastic literature.....
 
My experience with the (younger than me)lads I work with is they'd rather read fantasy than SF! There's a sense that SF is full of technical details and you can only understand it if you're like James May. A geek. Of course it aint all like that. Mind you I am a self confessed geek and proud of it!


Thats what i was trying to say when i became a thread starter with this thread.

SF is too technical bias is why younger readers prefer fantasy. People who dont read SFF will read fantasy 9/10 before sf. Thats what i said with my siblings who i have made read several fantasy books but ONLY Dune has been tried by them of all the books i recommend.

Why ? Because its sounds like fantasy in synopsis, Paul the future hero of Arrakis.

The fact there is social science stories,action sf,military sf,space opera etc is hard to make them understand.

Sadly some people let the movies decide if they are gonna read sf or fantasy. Fantasy has much better films about famous book series.
 
My experience with the (younger than me)lads I work with is they'd rather read fantasy than SF! There's a sense that SF is full of technical details and you can only understand it if you're like James May.

But then there are (and they may be the same lads) readers who won't read any Fantasy with too much worldbuilding because they don't like to read about those details, either.

JD -- You have been researching this for a number of years. Before that, of course, you were a reader and a keen observer of events around you.

I, on the other hand, have been immersed in this, I have been living this, I have been deeply, deeply involved in this for decades -- and before that, as you, a reader and an observer. You know somewhat of the experience I have had within the writing, publishing, and fan community, so we need not go into detail about that.

So regardless of which one of us may be right, you surely, surely, surely cannot believe for one moment that you can convince me that what you feel you have learned by your research and your objectivity is correct, and that what I feel I have learned through living and experiencing is wrong. Vile empiric that I am, you cannot convert me -- no matter how eloquently you express yourself -- to any such idea that what I have seen and heard and felt and spoken was not what I thought it was. You are an excellent debater, but even you are not that good.

Instead, why don't you tell us that which I am more than ready to believe, and which I would be fascinated to hear: your own personal attraction and reaction to the two genres, what it is in each of them that draws you, and what you do not like.
 
So regardless of which one of us may be right, you surely, surely, surely cannot believe for one moment that you can convince me that what you feel you have learned by your research and your objectivity is correct, and that what I feel I have learned through living and experiencing is wrong. Vile empiric that I am, you cannot convert me -- no matter how eloquently you express yourself -- to any such idea that what I have seen and heard and felt and spoken was not what I thought it was. You are an excellent debater, but even you are not that good.

Not so much interested in attempting to convert as to have my observations given consideration as worthy of serious thought. I may be wrong, certainly; but these observations are backed by a considerable amount of evidence from numerous sources, so I would contend they shouldn't be dismissed at all lightly. On the other hand, as I noted earlier, sometimes it isn't possible to note the reason(s) for such shifts until long after the fact -- sometimes decades, sometimes even longer -- but that doesn't mean it isn't worth attempting to find answers to such a question, nonetheless.

And before I leave this behind, as a bit of serendipity, I read this afternoon an article (actually, the text of a speech as Guest Scholar at the International Conference of the Fantastic in the Arts in March 2003) by S. T. Joshi on the subject of "Establishing the Canon of Weird Fiction" which, in the first few pages, is as much a good, thoughtful look at the entire idea of a literary canon and the reason thoughtful criticism is so important, as about weird fiction itself.

Amongst other things, he discusses the fact that of the "proliferation of the weird tale" in the period 1880-1940, and ponders the possible reasons for this -- something which I think also applies to this discussion:

Purely literary considerations do not seem to provide an adequate answer: to be sure, the influence of Poe on Ambrose Bierce, H. P. Lovecraft, and many others is patent; but I am convinced that cultural factors played a significant role. For one thing, orthodox religious belief declined significantly among the intellectual classes during the later nineteenth century, as Darwin's theory of evolution appeared to provide the final element in the fashioning of an entirely secular conception of the universe. If Lovecrat is correct in asserting that supernatural fiction is "coeval with the religious feeling and closely related to many aspects of it," then a case could be made that a decline in religious belief would result in the augmentation of a need for aesthetic outlets for it.[...] When God is removed from both the intellectual and aesthetic landscape, the rationale for such entities as the ghost, the witch, and the werewolf -- all resting at least indirectly upon a religious conception of the universe -- is suddenly lost. Is it any wonder that such eccentric monsters as Lovecraft's Cthulhu, or the sand-entities that Algernon Blackwood evoked out of the hoary depths of Egypt, came to be? In any event, it is undeniable that such writers as Lovecraft, Blackwood, Arthur Machen, Lord Dunsany, M. R. James, and a host of others not only gave voice to the myriad terrors facing a rapidly changing Anglo-American culture (the terror of the untenanted wildernesses, the terror of unholy antiquity, and, perhaps most poignantl of all, the terror of the cosmic oid suddenly emptied of its comforting and benevolent Creator), but also showed how weird fiction could be made to serve as the complex expression of the most intimate philosophical conceptions and a relevant commentary on social, cultural, and even political institutions.

Now, as I have argued above, the challenges to traditional religious and mystical views have caused them to be either reaffirmed even more stridently, or replaced by newer modifications of these same supernaturally-based paradigms, not only in literature, but in life in general. Thus the shift to fantasy as a way to confront many of the issues which are too emotionally threatening to face head-on through either realistic fiction or a more rationalistic approach such as sf.

Which, in part, answers at least a little what I find so valuable in fantasy: it can approach these things from a somewhat distanced, mythic perspective in an emotional way which is not constrained to the rationalistic view of science fiction; it can, in this way, often have a more immediate emotive -- and thus cathartic -- impact when done well. Science fiction, on the other hand, while still having this emotional component, filters it through the rationalistic approach, wedding the emotional/aesthetic to the intellectual/rational, but with something of a diminution of immediate, visceral impact. Both can, and often do, help to confront the various issues facing us in one guise or another, but they approach them from different angles, different perspectives, and using different parts of the brain; making a combination of the two a good way an even better way to reach some understanding of these underlying anxieties and finding ways in which to cope with (or perhaps alter) them.

This is not a division that works across the board (there are exceptions on both sides), but I'd say in general it is a good description of what I find in each and why I say I really can't choose a favorite between the two....

As for what I do not like... I don't like hackneyed stereotypes (something any genre fiction is prone to, unfortunately); I don't like lazy or poor writing; I don't like easy, simple solutions being offered me to complex situations -- it's a cheat and a lie, and I tend to treat the writer accordingly; and I don't like simplistic philosophies concerning the world, the universe, or the human condition, as these are childish and wrong-headed, more prone to create problems and misunderstandings rather than resolve them and help us understand each other and communicate.

Of course, these things are by no means relegated to the two genres being discussed, or even genre fiction in general; one can find them just as easily in "mainstream" fiction (though seldom in truly great literature, unless one or more of them is compensated for by even greater strengths in the other areas). But genre fiction is somewhat more prone to have them in more obvious guise, and that is the aspect I dislike intensely. There is no reason why fiction from within a particular genre cannot be as deep, thoughtful, mature, and perceptive as the best of literature in the broader sense, but it will be likely to be individual pieces (or authors) rather than the genre itself, as generic fiction will as a whole, by its nature, tend toward the things mentioned above in order to appeal to a wider, often less literate or thoughtful audience.
 
I agree with AE35Unit in that SF seems (to me anyway) quite daunting. I've read very little science fiction (in fact the only ones that really come to mind are novels that I read in school, like Cyteen and Fahrenheit 451 - and school books are forever tainted), but I always envision the genre as a somewhat grim and complex prediction of the future. Not that either of those things are necessarily bad in a story, but sometimes I just crave sunshine and puppies.

I like reading about people's experiences in the present world as well as fantasy. I feel that science fiction is, in some ways, a compromise between these two things; a compromise which, for me, does not work. I want something that is firmly grounded in recognisable society or something that is far removed from it (though of course with recognisable human interaction and themes) - science fiction distances itself from the real world, but not far enough for my tastes.

Then again, I'm sure there is some science fiction that I would really enjoy. I just don't want to give up valuable fantasy-reading time to try it.
 
I started off with UK 1970's SiFi although it always had a much stronger psychological element than its US counterpart - tending to be more driven more by character than (external) plot.

Unless you are into epic world-building as a background to your fantasy novel (and I know you are out there, lurking), then it is easier, I feel, to root a fantasy novel in characterisation first and foremost - the characters psychopathology becomes the 'mainspring', as it were.

Hards SiFi tends to date more rapidly than fantasy in terms of 'style over content' - the 'High Frontier' ethos of the 1950's & 60's doesn't stand up well, as a body of work, against something like LOTR - a timeless classic.
 
What I find interesting is the shift in interest from science fiction to fantasy over the last twenty years -- especially among male readers.

It makes me wonder why science fiction has been steadily losing readers ... I mean readers that it already had, not just failing to attract new ones in the same numbers that fantasy has.

Even people who say that science fiction is so much better seem to be buying and reading a lot of fantasy ...

I attribute the shift from science fiction to fantasy primarily because of the hype surrounding recently released movies and books centering on the dramatic theme of good and evil. Many readers love high fantasy stemming back from the Lord of the Rings, and with the success Harry Potter and Twilight shooting through the roof and the media attention the fantasy genre has obtained, its no wonder science fiction is slowly fading into obscurity.

"The time of the elves is over. The age of man has come"

The above quote is a metaphor for the rising of the fantasy genre (men) and the decline of science fiction (elves).
 
I agree with AE35Unit in that SF seems (to me anyway) quite daunting. I've read very little science fiction (in fact the only ones that really come to mind are novels that I read in school, like Cyteen and Fahrenheit 451 - and school books are forever tainted), but I always envision the genre as a somewhat grim and complex prediction of the future. Not that either of those things are necessarily bad in a story, but sometimes I just crave sunshine and puppies.

I like reading about people's experiences in the present world as well as fantasy. I feel that science fiction is, in some ways, a compromise between these two things; a compromise which, for me, does not work. I want something that is firmly grounded in recognisable society or something that is far removed from it (though of course with recognisable human interaction and themes) - science fiction distances itself from the real world, but not far enough for my tastes.

Then again, I'm sure there is some science fiction that I would really enjoy. I just don't want to give up valuable fantasy-reading time to try it.

Not all SF is all doom and gloom tho, Clarke's books are on the whole uplifting and the tech is not overpowering. And there are many dark,dystopian fantasies out there too,the recent film Franklyn is a good example of that. Very dark and miserable.
 

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