The purpose of Theon's POV

chongjasmine

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I had just finished a clash of kings, and find myself wondering what is the purpose of Theon's POV in this novel.

He doesn't really do much. Sure, he takes Winterfell, but not later, he loses it as well.

So, what do you think is George's purpose for putting in Theon as a POV.

I will have prefered to read things from Robb's POV.
 
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Their is great significance in his POV.
-Thanks to him the Boltons ******* gets an almost free pass to controlling the majority north by beeing easily able to backstap those still loyal to winterfell.
-He "kills" the Bran and Rickon. While he does not actually do this, the world believes he did, which ultimately is what matters at that moment in time. Allowing certain events in the world to unfold. No doubt this action will have consequences later on in the story as well.
-He gets captured, but ... (i cant continue since it will spoil some future books.)
 
The 'point' of Theon's story becomes much clearer in ADWD ;)
 
From Jon's view, Theon's an ass. In Theon's own ACOK chapters, we see he's petty and vindictive. And from his own POVs in AFFC, we find him as a vain, short sighted, treasonous, murderous, raping, thief... one who is easily manipulated by wiser players. We see the depths to which he descends while trying to gain power and his father's respect.

One thing that we see from Martin's use of POVs is that it's hard for a character to retain an aura of true heroism while we are peeking over his/her shoulders. The protagonists of the POVs have all made dubious decisions at times. Some of them have shown themselves as liars and cheats. Jon went AWOL. Arya has murdered. Sam broke his vows. Sansa is weak. Catelyn judges people incessantly. Aeron has doubts. Brienne is stubborn and loyal, but she can't see the forest for the trees.

Jaime's POV, on the other hand, tries to do the opposite. It does not demystify the hero, it humanizes the villain. Very intriguing.

Only Eddard, in my opinion, was able to retain something resembling mystery and heroism in his POV. Of course, it helped that he did not finish out his POVs in AGOT. But even Eddard's qualities depend upon "promise me, Ned"... without that anchor, he's been revealed as willfully ignorant of the Game and easily beaten by Cersei (abetted by Baelish). And Cersei has been revealed by Tyrion, Tywin, Littlefinger, the High Septon, the Queen of Thorns, and Auranne Waters to be a very poor player at the Game of Thrones.

I think that the only thing that a Robb POV would have accomplished would to have torn down the image of the Young Wolf and replaced it with a picture of a confused teenager. We need to see Robb through Catelyn's eyes... a handsome lord, a dutiful son, a righteous king... Seeing Robb in his own POV would have had him awkwardly groping Jeyne under the covers, whining about Glover's defeat at Duskendale, cursing idle threats against the Greyjoys, brooding over his lost youth, and continually doubting every royal decision.
 
I think that the only thing that a Robb POV would have accomplished would to have torn down the image of the Young Wolf and replaced it with a picture of a confused teenager. We need to see Robb through Catelyn's eyes... a handsome lord, a dutiful son, a righteous king... Seeing Robb in his own POV would have had him awkwardly groping Jeyne under the covers, whining about Glover's defeat at Duskendale, cursing idle threats against the Greyjoys, brooding over his lost youth, and continually doubting every royal decision.

Sometimes you're really on point, Boaz, and this paragraph here is one of them. We see enough of what Robb's POV would be like when he's sheepishly telling Catelyn that he married Jeyne. Not a pretty sight. It would have been nice to have a POV at his battles but only because battles are cool ;).
 
Sometimes you're really on point, Boaz, and this paragraph here is one of them.
Sometimes I'm lucky... sometimes I'm sober.

Actually, I think I learned something about POVs from GRRM's use of Eddard and his non-usage of Varys, Littlefinger, Barristan, and the Reeds. Eddard was the quickest and best way to convey the heart of the story (the Stark family, Robert's Rebellion, Jon, the Wall, and the Iron Throne). But the simple fact that Eddard also knew the truth behind Lyanna marked him for an early dismissal. Eddard could not have gone longer without revealing Jon's mother. GRRM used him to get us up to speed as quickly as possible and then cut him off and gave us everyone else.

Consider who gets the most POVs per book...

In ACOK, Tyrion gets fifteen POVs. In ASOS, Jon gets twelve. In AFFC, Cersei gets ten. But in AGOT (the shortest book), Eddard gets fifteen POVs and he's only in seventy-five percent of the story.

There are other characters who might be able to make guesses or who may actually know the truth about Jon. None of them have been given their own POV. I'm talking about Varys, Barristan, Littlefinger, Howland, Meera, and Jojen. Meera and Jojen may know the truth regarding Jon, but they'd know it as part of one of their father's tales. They may be oblivious to the importance of their knowledge. Anyway, if we were to have a Barristan POV, how long could GRRM skirt the issue of Rhaegar, Lyanna, and the whole sordid mess of Aerys II's reign? Either Barristan spills the beans to Dany or he follows Arys Oakheart's example of a brief Kingsguard POV.

GRRM's non-use of them keeps us in the dark.
 
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I think everybody else has more or less answered S.Gal83's question, or at least the question they meant to ask.

But, I've been pondering the question of POVs in more general sense and I'd like to share some of my thoughts... I think the point of Theon, from a narrative perspective is that he served as way to introduce the Iron Borne, who, it seems pretty clear are going to have a large role to play in events going forward. Theon's eyes gave us a way to see them through a relatively familiar character...

****And rereading this all I see that I've got spoilers all over the place, so if you haven't finished AFFC and haven't been paying attention to the spoiler chapters and various leaked info regarding ADWD you should probably back away slowly at this point. AHEAD THERE BE SPOILERS****

One of the things I found off putting about AFFC was the proliferation of POV characters, specifically the introduction of characters who we meet for the first time from their own point of view. There was something really elegant about the structure Martin had set up, adding two (I'm ignoring characters from prologues and epilogues, who have not, as a rule, experienced a very good survival rate) POVs with each book (and, with the exception of Davos, characters who we already knew pretty well), it made each of them special some way, and when we saw through, for instance, Jaime's eye's it was a revelation. Then in book 4 we're given a whopping 8 new POV characters (Cersei, Aeron, Areo, Brienne, Asha Arys, Victarion, and Arianne), only two of whom (Cersei and Brienne) who have really been prominently involved in the action thus far. It was like a completely new series...

Martin has said that he wanted to tell the story with only the original eight POVs but found that idea too limiting. That makes a lot of sense, the scope of the series has increased and to maintain the first person idea you need a lot of different characters in a lot of different places to show the readers everything that's going on, it's an interesting technical challenge, a lot of balls to for George to keep in the air all at once...

but all of this got me thinking about the POV structure of the series as a whole and if understanding it better might give us some clues as to what we should expect going in books to come.

For starters I think it's safe to assume that Dorne and The Iron Borne will have a much larger role to play in the series going forward, fully six of the new POVs in AFFC covered those two locales. That Quentyn Martell has been confirmed as a new POV for ADWD only drives home the point that Sunspear will have a large role to play going forward. In the space of one book we've gone from one semi viable character (Theon) to cover Dorne and The Iron Islands to five...

So if we break the world into pieces where we can expect action to go down this would appear to be the state of play (I think Martin has said that he doesn't want to add any POVs after ADWD, so I'm assuming that's true). I'm paying particular attention to locales where we have multiple POVs, where POVs might cross paths as those are places where I think we can expect to see major deaths both because what characters will be seeing could become redundant and because :

Kings Landing
Cersei is our lone agent on the ground and since I don't figure Jaime will be coming back any time soon, she figures to remain that way. I made this comment in another thread but I'll repeat myself here, I think Cersei actually fairly safe for a while... No one has died thus far in their own POV and it doesn't look like there's going to be anyone to witness the queen's demise for a while. I wonder if that actually argues for Jaime being the valonqar, not only would that golden hand wrapped around her pale throat make for a lovely image, it seems hard to imagine too many people being around to witness the former queen being strangled, which obviously limit the number of people who can see the event for us. It seems Kings Landing will be shrinking in importance heading forward (I mean, aside from the fact we'll be leaving it behind in ADWD), after being the focus of as many as four POVs at one time, the city is down to one. That fits with everything else we know, it should looks like our attention will be shifting North.


The Riverlands
Pretty much a smoking ruin at this point, I think there are only two POV characters in the Riverlands at the moment and neither seems all the likely to stay long. Jaime's work is done at Riverrun but I very much doubt he'll be in any hurry to get back to Kings Landing, though it's not really clear where he'd want to head next? Try to track down Sansa on his own? Try to break up this band of outlaws who've been hanging Freys (after all, he made his reputation against another bunch of bandits)? Hunting the Black Fish? That last seems unlikely, as he's really committed to keeping his vow not to take up arms against the Starks or Tullys (that vow is going to cause him some trouble down the line at some point, I think he's going to refuse to kill someone and Cersei is going to be very very angry). Brienne seems a safe bet to doggedly keep after Sansa unless UnCat makes her swear to go hunt down The Kingslayer instead. Either way, I don't expect either of these two to stay where they are for long...


Dorne
Suddenly the home to no less then three POVs in AFFC (with another Martell-centric POV being added in ADWD) Dorne would appear to be pretty important as we move forward (it's also, I think, the one place where it's hard to see how we could have gotten a POV there from the original 8 characters, the only ones Martin originally wanted to tell the story with... perhaps Tryrion could have been manuevered there, but that's the only person I can see there). While Arys didn't survive, we still have Areo and Arianne keeping us abreast of events in Sunspear. Areo is the new POV I think I would most like to see go away, he's passive, seemingly there simply to be a pair of eyes for us to see through, and largely redundant with Arianne it seems like we should be in posistion to trim an excess of characters in this realm. I hope it'll be him to go. Regardless, Dorne seems like powder keg and with Dany ascending they're going to vital to the story going forward.


Old Town/The Citadel
Sam's our only set of eyes on the ground here, providing us with a window into whatever long con the maesters are running and it seems unlikely that he'll be crossing paths with anybody else until he heads back to wall. I think the main narrative purpose of having Sam there is to give the reader eyes on the ground at The Citadel, though it's not that unlikely that he'll find some vital piece of information for John while he's there.

The Vale/Petyr
Sansa's the only POV we've got giving us a view of the forever underestimated Little Finger. She's finally shown some signs of growing into somebody who can do something other get her father killed (certainly a welcome development), we shouldn't forget that, for the moment, her most useful function is giving us eyes on one of the three or four major players in Westeros. At some point she'll cross paths with somebody, likely Brienne or, possibly, Jaime but it may yet be some time before we see that.

The Iron Born
Another place where we're suddenly overwhelmed with different eyes with which to see. I think we're very likely to see some deaths in this group. Victarion is off to Meereen (along with just about everyone else in the damn world), Aeron is running around trying to drum up trouble for the crow's eye with Asha also on the run from her brother. There just seems to be too much opportunity for these folks cross paths with one another with everyone wanting everyone else dead for everybody to get out clean. I'm not sure who I'd put my money bite it, but I'd be shocked if Balon Greyjoy weren't short a few more kids by the end of ADWD.

The North
Theon/Reek will give us a look at how the Bolton's try to assert their hold as Wardens of North. Davos wil serve as a sort of free agent as given responsibilities (securing support for Stannis) and his former profession (smuggler) he can plausibly appear in any number of places up and down the coast, giving a set of eyes wherever the story demands a pair. I suspect reports of his death are greatly exaggerated for any number of reasons, not least that it'd be pretty sloppy story tell to spoil a major death off screen. Asha's also at Deepwood Motte, trying to find Theon somehow. It seems likely that we'll see at least some of these paths crossing (and maybe with Aeron as well) and, as I've mentioned, I imagine somebody out of this group is going to die. Perhaps a redemptive death for Theon? Has anyone gotten that sort of thing in this series? I guess it's not really the kind of story Martin's telling...

The Wall and Points North
John's been looking north for us for most of the series now, he's the only major character who really seems to have a handle on the real threat facing Westeros and I think just about all of us expect him to have a major role in events going forward. Know he'll also be our eyes on Stannis as long as Davos out drumming up support for his king. Bran's even further north and doesn't seem at all likely that he'll be crossing paths with any of our other POV characters. It does seem likely, however, that his training with Cold Hands and The Three Eyed Crow will provide Martin a chance to do some info dumping. There's stil a ton of stuff we don't know about The Others and it looks like Bran will be in a unique position to start the learning process. Also in this locale will be The Red Woman, Melisandre who'll be one of the new POVs in this book... we don't know how many chapters we'll get from her, but it sure seems to me that she might be one of those characters who just knows too much to stick around long (hat tip to Boaz for noticing that bit of narrative slight of hand), I kind of expect her to be the epilogue POV, watching in horror as everything goes to hell around her and she realizes that she was wrong about Stannis all along. I just can't really see how we get much through her eyes without learning more then we're probably supposed to.

Braavos
Just Arya here and, while I expect she'll be a major player going forward,it's hard to see how she's going to cross paths with anyone else (there's no chance the kindly man sends her off to Meereen right?) until she gets back to Westeros.

Meereen
This seems to be where everyone is headed now, it may as well be the center of the universe. Dany's already there, Tryion is on his way as are Quentyn Martell and Victarion. It's interesting to note that this will be our first chance to see Dany through the eyes of anyone else. Boaz pointed out that pretty much no one has emerged from their own point of view with a heroic image intact and while I'd argue that John comes off better then he's given credit for, Ned worse, I think it will be interesting to see how Dany survives the prism of other characters eyes. Obviously we're in prime position to see some major character die here with so many people in one place, everybody wants a piece of Dany...

And, I think that's everybody. This has gotten kind of unwieldy, and most of what I've pointed out is kind of self evident, but I really think there is something to be teased out here. I think the basic structure of the story must necessarily give away some information about its shape. We just have to work it out.

Going through this, I wonder if there's some value in looking at POV characters who are important for what they do and those who are important for what they see. Someone like Dany can do just about any damn thing she wants, the story appears to be shaping up with her at the center. But characters like Davos or Areo Hotah are vaulable for George because they witness events we need to see. From their very existence we can infer that they'll be a window into something important.
 
One other question that occurred to me while I was writing War and Piece up there, which I, naturally, neglected to actually include in my opus...

What should we make (if anything) of the the fact that the Tyrells seem to be the only major set of players where we don't have a set of eyes? They've been steadily gaining in prominence in the series but always through attached themselves (Margaery really) to whoever seemed to the most likely to do them some good.

They don't seem like good candidates for knowing too much... I really don't like the Queen of Flowers chances in her power struggle with Cersei. Is there something I'm missing?
 
Illifer, good thoughts. Thanks for your analysis according to geography.

Since the Tyrells don't have a POV, I say they're toast. The only other players to not get a POV by the end of AFFC are Renly and the Freys (and you could argue the Boltons, but theirs is coming in ADWD). Well, actually we glimpsed both of them through Catelyn... she's dead, too.

Also, you mentioned about the flocking to Dany... well, I'm not sure that Loras won't be in that group. First, the Tyrells are opportunists. They've married Margaery to three kings now... THREE!!! Second, they try to explore all options. When everyone else was siding with Joffrey, Stannis or Robb, they went with Renly. When Renly went down, they seamlessly joined the the Lannisters.

Now, the Tyrells know that Tommen's position is weak and that Cersei will oust Margaery if she can. This has been discussed by others in other threads, but what if Loras is not injured? What if his injuries, that just happened to have convienienly completely covered in bandages, have been faked? What if Loras used the Redwyne ships to sail to Dany? What if Auranne Waters defected to the Tyrells and is taking Loras to Dany? Hey, the Greyjoys and Martells were paying close enough attention to know that Dany is unwed and coming to Westeros, so why not the Tyrells? They've already married Margaery off repeatedly, why not their other daughter, err, son?

As for Theon, does he remind anyone else of Sour Billy from Fevre Dream? He's weak. He's vindictive. He lusts for power. He'll become a cannibal to survive.

Also, Illifer, I'd not really thought of POVs as geo-centric. I've been thinking of them as socio-political-centric.

The Poor: Arya and Brienne. Here we see how the lower classes deal with the wars around them.

The Yorks: Eddard and Catelyn. Their POVs show the struggle for House Stark to survive the Game of Thrones.

The Lancasters: Tyrion, Jaime, and Cersei. Tywin's children display ruthlessness and avarice at every turn.

The Servants: Jon and Sam. The men of the NW have put aside their own agendas and come together to protect Westeros.

The Eyes: Sansa, Davos, Areo, Arys, and Aeron. These POVs are very close to rulers and major players. Their purpose is to show plot developments without revealing the deepest secrets of major power brokers. In a break with this pattern, Jorah did not get a POV... Dany is the only ruler to get her own POV.

The Supernatural: Bran. He has powers. Jojen has powers. The Crow visists Bran. Coldhands is now guiding him. His wolf's name is Summer. Somehow the defeat of The Other is connected to Bran.

The Return: Dany. The Targaryen's return to power. The dragon's return to life. The return of magic to Westeros. A return of compassionate and just rule to the lower classes of the Seven Kingdoms.

The New Players: Arianne, Asha, Victarion. GRRM expanded the story in breadth with AFFC, but I'm not sure the Iron Islands and Dorne will supplant the North or KL by the end of the series.
 
Nice, Boaz. But I do not think the North will be down that easy. At this point, even if the only Stark left in the North is Rickon and Winterfell is in ruin, I dare say that with the return of Bran, the North will become a major power again.

Also, House Stark had and has the most POV in the whole series. It started with six and now is down to four. No other has has more than three and the only ones with three are the Lannisters and Greyjoys. The last ones may have four but I haven't heard anything about Theon in a while.
 
*****ADWD SPOILERS****

There are four Greyjoy POVs as Theon will be back in the next book. That's one of the reasons I expect that we're going to see a few dead Greyjoys before too long. It's hard to see how Theon survives much longer and we just seem to have a surplus of them...

As for Loras heading Dany's way, color me unconvinced. I'm totally on board with his mortal injuries being a fake, but I tend to think he'll make a surprise return defending his sister's honor, not wooing The Mother of Dragons. We can surmise from the spoiler chapters of ADWD floating around out there who's coming to see Dany.

Quaithe tells Dany 'The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare. After her will come the others [no caps]. Crow and kraken, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Remember the undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.'

It's hard for me to see how Loras can count as any of those people. The Crow and The Mummer's Dragon are the only two who's identities aren't totally clear, though I have think I know what The Mummer's Dragon is all about. Boaz, you want to make a case that Loras is The Crow?
 
Jaime's POV, on the other hand, tries to do the opposite. It does not demystify the hero, it humanizes the villain. Very intriguing.

Judging from the preview Reek chapter, GRRM may be attemtping to do something similar with Theon. I never hated him and have some sympathy for his character. Hopefully he will find his purpose once either Asha or Davos rescues his sorry butt.
 
Theon/Reek may also have the chance to throw a wrench into the Bolton/Fake Arya marriage as he's just about the only person alive and in position to say 'what the hell? that's not Ayra.' Him having a role in screwing over the Boltons makes more sense to me then Asha's crazy plan to make him king of the Iron Born.
 
Don't give up on Theon yet. It's amazing what torture can do to someone. We see him at his lowest point but vengeance is stronger than self-pitty.
 
Yeah, I guess I'm suggesting Theon will grow a spine. I still think he gets a redemptive death of some kind... Though that may just be wishful thinking. Intellectually, I know that this isn't that kind of series, but intuitively, it just doesn't feel right to me to spend so much time with Theon just to see how debased he can be.

Though, I suppose we shouldn't overlook the possibility that he's just there because we need to see what's going on with Boltons.

So in conclusion: I don't know a thing and can make a plausible case for any number of fates for Theon. I'm very helpful to have around.
 
So in conclusion: I don't know a thing and can make a plausible case for any number of fates for Theon. I'm very helpful to have around.
You've been posting good observations and logical conclusions since you joined... That sounds like one of my conclusions. Don't succumb to my confusion, stay clear headed, Illifer.
 
If it sounds like one of your conclusions, I'll take that as a compliment. I'm blushing.

Really, I'm just trying to stay clear headed and logical about things. I find it helps to remind myself that I don't really know a damn thing from time to time. It seems totally intuitively obvious to me that Theon will be getting a redemptive death, probably throwing a wrench in the Fake Arya wedding to the Boltons. But really there's no reason to expect that and some very good reasons not to. I'm just trying to keep myself honest and not too convinced of my own clairvoyance.
 
If it sounds like one of your conclusions, I'll take that as a compliment.
It wasn't meant to be a compliment, but a condemnation of my own lack of clarity or purpose in making a point.

Illifer and TK have me wondering about Theon's future. I confess, I don't see redemption in the tea leaves.
 

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