The purpose of Theon's POV

You're probably right. It's not really a redemptive death kind of world. We really haven't seen any characters redeemed have we? Jaime a bit.

Do you think Theon survives ADWD? Or does he do even more repulsive things (what would really qualify after what he did to the miller's sons?) in an effort to save himself? I can't imagine him actually taking the sea stone chair as it doesn't seem he would be much of a match for Euron, Victarion, or even Asha.
 
Well, we're watching Jaime's redemption... which is by no means a done deal! He's talking about launching newborns from warmachines. Tyrion's killing of the man on the toilet shows that he's willing to take one step back for every step forward. Sandor may have stopped his descent into hell, but he's not really climbing a stairway to heaven either.

Redemption, or lack thereof, is a theme that I believe Martin wants to continue to the end. Yet who will attain this quality? Arya, Sandor, Jaime, Tyrion, Cersei, Lancel, Littlefinger, Sandor, Jorah, Stoneheart, Arianne, Theon, Euron, Victarion, Walder, Black Walder, Roose, and Ramsay are the characters who have have grievously sinned and are still alive (or at least undead in Stoneheart's case). I think all of Tywin's offspring, Jorah, Sandor, and Arya will figure prominently into Martin's resolution of redemption/condemnation... and Theon must too, if he has a POV.

Maybe it's just my own desire to see Jaime and Tyrion attempt to clean their slates and to see Theon and Cersei get their just desserts. But after seeing so many prominent characters die so far, I can't help but feel that only Arya (and mayhaps Arianne and Littlefinger) will survive to the end. Cersei is prophecied to die. And like her, so many of the others in my list are so intertwined in their faction's bid for power that Dany (or whomever gains the Iron Throne) cannot afford to let them live. But as for Sandor and Stoneheart, I think their violence will catch up to them.
 
I tend to agree with that analysis... Hard to see many Freys surviving the series (I think we'd all cheer lustily if someone took it upon themselves to raise The Twins and salt the ground there... if ever a family deserved the Rains of Castemere treatment, it's the Freys), I've always assumed Sandor dies taking out the Qyborg. I think we'll see a bunch of dead Greyjoys before too long (the world hasn't been kind to people who have tried to use Dany. If Euron wants to steal away her dragons... I don't think it ends well for him).

I'd love for Tyrion to see some kind of happy ending. But I think the kin slaying thing doesn't bode well for him (unless Boaz's dreams come true and Tyrion's secretly a Targ, absolving our favorite dwarf of killing his father). I don't think we're in a world where the gods will look the other way and forgive someone just because daddy dearest totally deserved it.

Stoneheart is already on borrowed time.
 
Tyrion's kinslaying does not bode well at all... but then again if he's a *******, then Tywin was not his father and thus Tyrion is not a kinslayer.

Eddard's death still haunts me. He was as close to being a righteous man as any we've seen in the Seven Kingdoms. Yet I can still hear the High Septon intoning, "As we sin, so do we suffer." Did Eddard have some secret sins that we know nothing about? Did he really suffer for fathering a *******? Or maybe, just maybe, Martin is saying that life is not fair in Westeros.

What sins had Bran committed before he became a paraplegic? What great offences did the miller's sons perform? What horrible crimes did Rickard and Brandon commit?

On the other hand, despite decades of infanticide and incest how did Craster earn such a quick death? Arstan/Barristan slew Mero in seconds. And perhaps the best example is Aerys... he raped his wife, he perverted justice, he murdered his subjects, he tortured his people, and yet Jaime gave him a fairly quick and painless death.

I think Martin is saying that there is a lack of divine justice in the world of ASOIAF. I think Theon's POV will back this up. But then again, I've been sorely wrong before... like being adamant that Shae and Bronn were Tywin's agents and yet Shae and Tywin are dead and there's been nothing to prove my idea.
 
You're right, it certainly doesn't seem as though The Seven take a very active interest in seeing justice done in Westeros. But I don't think you're totally right about the lack of justice.

Tywin Lannister, a man who valued respect about all else, died in just about the most absurd manner possible: shot in the stomach while he was taking a dump by a disfigured dwarf. There's some justice in that.

Aerys died quick, but he also died alone at the hands of someone sworn to protect him. Viserys got more or less exactly what he deserved (and what he wanted). Gregor died slowly and in agony. There's some justice in all of those deaths.

Eddard's an interesting case. I actually like and admire him less each time I reread the series. I find myself with less and less respect for his high minded honor. It seems like an excuse for not dealing the world as it actually is. His much discussed honor is not, I think, all together admirable. How many deaths could have been prevented if had Eddard only been willing to take Renly's advice and seize the Lannister children while he could?

One of my favorite things about L+R=J is that in an odd sort of way it makes Robb's death much more tragic and shifts some responsibility for it onto his father... It seems clear to me that Robb is determined to marry Jeyne because he's seen how badly Jon's been treated as a *******. He doesn't want to make the same mistake his father did. But if Eddard never made that mistake and only claimed it to protect his sister's son then Robb's essentially lost the war because of his fathers lie. There's something heart wrendingly lovely about that I think.
 
Martin made a post concering his views on justice and football players today.

7059164


So Plaxico Burress has agreed to a plea bargain, and will be going to prison for two years for sticking a loaded pistol in his sweatpants, taking it to a crowded nightclub, and shooting himself in the thigh. He also lost something like $27 million when the Giants dropped him, and may have lost his NFL career as well. He will be 34 when he gets out.

I don't quarrel with the sentence. Plax was incredibly stupid, and he broke the law.

But our justice system does seem seriously out of whack. Plax gets two years for carrying a concealed weapon and accidentally shooting himself, Michael Vick gets two years for dog fighting, and Donte Stallworth gets thirty days for driving drunk and killing a man.

If I were king, I would have sent all three to jail, but Stallworth would have gotten the longest sentence, and Plax the lightest. Yes, Plax might have killed someone too, if the gun had gone off in the nightclub and the bullet had gone someplace other than his leg. But, ah, it didn't. We don't usually sentence people on the basis of what might have happened. Donte Stallworth actually DID kill another human being, no "might have" or "could have" involved.

And on the same note, I think Ray Lewis should have gone to prison too. Two people died that night, and I believe that Lewis knows who killed them, but won't say.

But there you go. Sometimes I wish Justice would take off that blindfold.
Click to expand...
"If I were a king..." Am I reading too much into this? Is TPTWP about bringing justice to the Seven Kingdoms? Will this be Dany's legacy?

What does this say about Tyrion's double homicide during his escape? Oh, boy.
 
I feel like the bittersweet ending thing gets overplayed by folks. It could mean any number of things. I've always felt like all it implies is that some people we like will get ending that make us happy while other won't, that some of the folks we love to to hate will get their just desserts while others prosper. I, frankly, don't think Theon's a big enough deal as a character that his fate will much effect how I feel about the ending.
 
It's all cumulative isn't it, this bittersweet ending.

Something tells me that GRRM does not give any character a POV. The fact Theon had one and that GRRM is bringing him back potentially makes him a bigger player in the Game and thus a greater influence on the outcome.

But, maybe your right, Ilifer, and he won't matter much in the end.
 
I'd say "May the warrior guard him from Cersei!"

Way to go Tyrion. Kill the lying bitch and that golden *******! :D
 
Some really good posts on here about where the series is potentially headed.

But I appear to be the only person who seems to think that not only with Theon not be bumped off in ADwD, I think he'll ultimately survive the series and wind up on the Seastone chair. I do agree that there will be a Greyjoy cull but I just see Asha getting it long before her brother does. GRRM doesn't seem to treat his female PoV characters with much luck.
Catelyn, dead (kind of) - Brienne, last seen hanging by a rope with half her face chewed off, Arya blinded and well on her way to becoming a little sociopath, Cersei - imprisoned in Baelor's sept and on trial for her life, Arianne - locked up by daddy and with her lover dead and future prospects not looking great, Sansa - on the verge of losing her identity (is anyone else worried that her PoV changed to Alyane?) and is at risk of being raped by Littlefinger with his Cat obsession.
.

Asha is currently on the run from Euron and will probably be agitating against him whenever she lands - probably Moat Cailin. With that kind of mouth I can see Euron making an example of her, before he himself is offed by someone like Aeron who'll probably also die in the act. As for Vic I reckon he's somewhat safe away from all the politiking which is why I also think Theon will survive. Bolton will keep him for use as a bargaining tool with the Iron Islands - either to offer him to Euron to stop the raids or to Asha to get the occupied lands back...if he feels in the mood to negotiate. Either way I can see Theon getting out of Bolton's clutches - though probably not until after ADwD.
 
WS, good to see you here. You omitted... Margaery in jail... Ygritte slain by her lover's co-workers... Myrcella disfigured after nearly being decapitated... your choice on Lyanna, either kidnapped and raped or her fiancee killed her husband... and Loras in a full body cast.
 
Once again, if you've not read AGOT, then don't highlight the following lines.

I meant Lyanna... either she was kidnapped and raped by the Crown Prince or else her fiance (Robert) killed her husband (Rhaegar).
 
Okay, I see. All the other things listed were current events, and you suddenly switched to something that happened in the past and out of our sight, that's where you lost me.
 
Am I the only person here who doesn't think that Arya's blindness isn't a tragically awful thing. When that went down in AFfC I just figured that it was going to be part of her training and was going to be temporary. It never occurred to me that it was a fate that was in line with the awful things that have happened to Cat or Brienne or Lyanna or Lysa.

WS- I got the impression from the Asha spoiler chapter that she's the one who would like to see Theon raised to the seastone chair. With her dead, I don't see any way for him to get there... My money is still, against all odds, on a redemptive death and Asha on the seastone chair, maybe with a loose alliance with whoever ends up ruling the north (she certainly made the most compelling case at the Queen's Moot in AFfC).
 
I've thought Arya's blindness is merely temporary. I believe it'll enhance her other senses during her training. It'll help her to learn how to detect truth from lies... this is something she has failed at continually with the old man and the waif.

But it would be a tremendous bit of story telling on old George's part to keep her blind. This is something that I... uh, well... never saw coming.
 
Arya as Daredevil?

Yeah, I'm with you. I think the blindness was the beginning of her training in earnest. She killed someone while playing a role, Arya of House Stark, then returned the House of of Black and White as Cat of Canals. I think that's the first step towards becoming a faceless man.
 
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