THE GATHERING STORM: Initial Thoughts (caution!!! May be SPOILERS!)
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ThunderandLightning
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Things that The Gathering Storm wrapped up:
1.) White Tower healed.
2.) The long since foreshadowed Seanchan attack on the White Tower finally happens.
3.) Semirhage captures Rand, and gets dead. Graendal also bites the dust. This is a HUGE improvement, as books 8-11 made virtually no progress whatsoever towards eliminating the Forsaken -- only O'Sangar dies in the space of all 4 books, and he's just a recycled already killed once Forsaken anyways.
4.) The event foreshadowed WAAAY back in EOTW finally happens: Two people become one person in Rand Al'Thor. I think the persnal crisis that leads up to it partly ruins Rand as a character -- for a little while anyways, but clearly something big needed to happen to merge Lews Therin and Rand Al'Thor together without it spelling disaster -- LT going berserk and killing Asha'man and Aes Sedai and the like. So the "nucking futs" Rand crisis may have been a little over the top, but it seems likely that is how RJ was going to tell the story anyways (spread out over eight 1000 page novels of course.) The door is now opened for Sanderson -- now he can write a likable and heroic Rand rather than the psycho-crazy "frightens small children at a glance" Rand that he'd devolved into. If the personal crisis was the price for having an honest to goodness hero by the end, it is more than worth it.
5.) The mystery of how the Choeden Kal would fit into the Last Battle is neatly answered: They don't.
6.) The Forsaken and Black Ajah are apparently officially OUT of the White Tower. This makes at least one point tidy and ready for the Last Battle, and leaves a lot less subplots and unanswered questions lurking around.
7.) Elaida gets what's coming to her. I swear that Jordan had built up the most ridiculous laundry list of reasons to hate the woman. I don't know if her fate will be quite bad enough, but I guess it works. I'm not 100% sure that Padin Fain's tainting of her necessarily needs to be pursued -- and at this point, who the hell cares?? We just spent NINE BOOKS sorting out the White tower and getting rid of her, so good riddance!!
8.) FINALLY there is progress towards negotiating an alliance between Rand's forces and the Seanchan. I think that the negotiations were supposed to fail though -- Matt is supposed to be the key ingredient there, and he's got the Tower of Ghenjei to deal with first.
9.) The insane notion that Rand Al'Thor just never gets to see, hear, talk to or interact with his adoptive father Tam Al'Thor is finally brought to an end. That was SOOO satisfying!!
11.) The Prophet is dealt with at last. He didn't deserve a dramatic and complicated end. Look at how Jordan offed Pedron Niall afterall! This is just another HUGELY annoying pest that is made dead in unspectacular fashion -- exactly as he deserved.
Things Sanderson does better:
1.) When written by Sanderson, the WOT women aren't all carbon copies of the same psychotic bitch -- as has been said, they sniff CONSTANTLY, they smooth their skirts CONSTANTLY, they glare CONSTANTLY, they fold their arms under their breasts CONSTANTLY. Time and time and time again, they refuse to let men help them in dangerous circumstances, something terrible happens, they regret it, yet they never learn their lesson: Wash, rinse repeat. There were always a good variety of male personalities, but only ONE carbon copy insanely bitchy female personality in the series. Sanderson actually wrote women with different personalities -- which may not have kept them 100% true to character for the series, but I was long ago sick to death of half-hating the vast majority of women characters in the series. I completely forgot to dislike or be annoyed with all the women personalities in TGS, and that was SOOOO refreshing.
2.) Sanderson moves the story along. Jordan would have spent six 1000 page novels covering the same ground that The Gathering Storm just covered. He got the series back on track. Jordan had gotten lost and was busily trying to tell the story of every living person in the WOT world.
3.) Sanderson does not seem likely to trap characters in virtually impossible and horrible circumstances for 2 or 3 books straight. He seems far less inclined towards non-stop torturing the main characters of the series.
4.) While Jordan was constantly adding more threads to the story, Sanderson rather brilliantly ties them up and gets the story moving again.
The one thing that he doesn't do as well is writing Matt. It's not the end of the world, even though he was always one of my favorite characters. But truth be told, it's not all that bad of a departure either -- with two books in which to get it right. I think the cursed village was unnecessary addition to the story line and did nothing to move things along. It was probably handed to Sanderson along with all the other notes by Robert Jordan, so it's not really his fault I guess.
I think that the insane number of stories that Jordan wanted to tell combined with Sanderson's ability to wrap things up, be concise and get on with telling the story is the perfect combination, and exactly what the series needed.
1.) White Tower healed.
2.) The long since foreshadowed Seanchan attack on the White Tower finally happens.
3.) Semirhage captures Rand, and gets dead. Graendal also bites the dust. This is a HUGE improvement, as books 8-11 made virtually no progress whatsoever towards eliminating the Forsaken -- only O'Sangar dies in the space of all 4 books, and he's just a recycled already killed once Forsaken anyways.
4.) The event foreshadowed WAAAY back in EOTW finally happens: Two people become one person in Rand Al'Thor. I think the persnal crisis that leads up to it partly ruins Rand as a character -- for a little while anyways, but clearly something big needed to happen to merge Lews Therin and Rand Al'Thor together without it spelling disaster -- LT going berserk and killing Asha'man and Aes Sedai and the like. So the "nucking futs" Rand crisis may have been a little over the top, but it seems likely that is how RJ was going to tell the story anyways (spread out over eight 1000 page novels of course.) The door is now opened for Sanderson -- now he can write a likable and heroic Rand rather than the psycho-crazy "frightens small children at a glance" Rand that he'd devolved into. If the personal crisis was the price for having an honest to goodness hero by the end, it is more than worth it.
5.) The mystery of how the Choeden Kal would fit into the Last Battle is neatly answered: They don't.
6.) The Forsaken and Black Ajah are apparently officially OUT of the White Tower. This makes at least one point tidy and ready for the Last Battle, and leaves a lot less subplots and unanswered questions lurking around.
7.) Elaida gets what's coming to her. I swear that Jordan had built up the most ridiculous laundry list of reasons to hate the woman. I don't know if her fate will be quite bad enough, but I guess it works. I'm not 100% sure that Padin Fain's tainting of her necessarily needs to be pursued -- and at this point, who the hell cares?? We just spent NINE BOOKS sorting out the White tower and getting rid of her, so good riddance!!
8.) FINALLY there is progress towards negotiating an alliance between Rand's forces and the Seanchan. I think that the negotiations were supposed to fail though -- Matt is supposed to be the key ingredient there, and he's got the Tower of Ghenjei to deal with first.
9.) The insane notion that Rand Al'Thor just never gets to see, hear, talk to or interact with his adoptive father Tam Al'Thor is finally brought to an end. That was SOOO satisfying!!
11.) The Prophet is dealt with at last. He didn't deserve a dramatic and complicated end. Look at how Jordan offed Pedron Niall afterall! This is just another HUGELY annoying pest that is made dead in unspectacular fashion -- exactly as he deserved.
Things Sanderson does better:
1.) When written by Sanderson, the WOT women aren't all carbon copies of the same psychotic bitch -- as has been said, they sniff CONSTANTLY, they smooth their skirts CONSTANTLY, they glare CONSTANTLY, they fold their arms under their breasts CONSTANTLY. Time and time and time again, they refuse to let men help them in dangerous circumstances, something terrible happens, they regret it, yet they never learn their lesson: Wash, rinse repeat. There were always a good variety of male personalities, but only ONE carbon copy insanely bitchy female personality in the series. Sanderson actually wrote women with different personalities -- which may not have kept them 100% true to character for the series, but I was long ago sick to death of half-hating the vast majority of women characters in the series. I completely forgot to dislike or be annoyed with all the women personalities in TGS, and that was SOOOO refreshing.
2.) Sanderson moves the story along. Jordan would have spent six 1000 page novels covering the same ground that The Gathering Storm just covered. He got the series back on track. Jordan had gotten lost and was busily trying to tell the story of every living person in the WOT world.
3.) Sanderson does not seem likely to trap characters in virtually impossible and horrible circumstances for 2 or 3 books straight. He seems far less inclined towards non-stop torturing the main characters of the series.
4.) While Jordan was constantly adding more threads to the story, Sanderson rather brilliantly ties them up and gets the story moving again.
The one thing that he doesn't do as well is writing Matt. It's not the end of the world, even though he was always one of my favorite characters. But truth be told, it's not all that bad of a departure either -- with two books in which to get it right. I think the cursed village was unnecessary addition to the story line and did nothing to move things along. It was probably handed to Sanderson along with all the other notes by Robert Jordan, so it's not really his fault I guess.
I think that the insane number of stories that Jordan wanted to tell combined with Sanderson's ability to wrap things up, be concise and get on with telling the story is the perfect combination, and exactly what the series needed.
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T&L, this may be the beginning of a beautiful friendship...
Your views are clearly and succinctly stated, with no room for ambiguity, to be sure! I would take issue that all the women characters were the same psychotic bitch (a bit strong in some cases, perhaps), but they were more and less intense varieties of the same spiteful woman, Elaida being the worst, and Min being the best. Sanderson was masterful in taking these variations and making them into distinct personalities (and then getting rid of a few of them). Elaida had become quite the straw woman. There was not one redeeming feature in her, and one wondered why she had any supporters at all, and we all knew books and books ago that it was a matter of time before she was pulled down.
TL, take a moment and go introduce yourself at the Introductions - Science Fiction Fantasy Chronicles: forums thread.
Your views are clearly and succinctly stated, with no room for ambiguity, to be sure! I would take issue that all the women characters were the same psychotic bitch (a bit strong in some cases, perhaps), but they were more and less intense varieties of the same spiteful woman, Elaida being the worst, and Min being the best. Sanderson was masterful in taking these variations and making them into distinct personalities (and then getting rid of a few of them). Elaida had become quite the straw woman. There was not one redeeming feature in her, and one wondered why she had any supporters at all, and we all knew books and books ago that it was a matter of time before she was pulled down.
TL, take a moment and go introduce yourself at the Introductions - Science Fiction Fantasy Chronicles: forums thread.
Talysia
Lady of Autumn
Reading this reminded me of a question I've been meaning to ask for a while: Is Mesaana still hiding in the White Tower, after the end of tGS? I really do need to read the book again...
Otherwise, nice summary, Thunder - it's good to see a bit of activity in the Jordan boards for a change.
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Although I have to agree with most of what Thunderandlightning said - and yes Robert Jordan was lost wandering the world of the Wheel of Time, probably since about book 5, I'd still like to say that he was to determined to finish the Wheel of Time, and had promised that there was only going to be one more book: so some of the threads being wrapped up could have been his doing, not Sandersons. (Sanderson is an absolutely fantastic writer, don't get me wrong, I think a lot of the reason TGS is the best book in ages is down to him) The template for the end was laid out very strongly by Jordan, in last few weeks before his untimely death.
Would he have been able to finish the series in one problem as he promised? Well in the same posting he did say it may well be a 10,000 page volume...
Would he have been able to finish the series in one problem as he promised? Well in the same posting he did say it may well be a 10,000 page volume...
ThunderandLightning
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LOL, you're welcome.
When written by Robert Jordan, the sum total difference in personalities from one woman to the next would amount to mood, differences in cultural upbringing (and the resulting conflicting opinions about matters), etc. What you have as a copy of exactly the same personality woman, but with different life experiences and backgrounds.
For example, Elaida would be that copied psycho-bitch woman raised amongst the most extreme feminazis ever imagined, spoiled rotten by those feminazis, constantly on her period with a perpetual migraine headache. That's about all that separates her from being the same woman as Min or any other milder copy of the same psycho-bitch woman.
It just showed a great lack of understanding: There's just a lot more variation to female personalities than how Jordan wrote them, even in a matriarchally oriented world like the Wheel of Time world.
Truly it was a breath of fresh air for me. Earlier in the series I found it very interesting that there were so many strong women in the world Jordan created. That much was fine and actually very interesting. The complete lack of variation from one woman to the next just got very, very old.
It became obvious shortly after Egwene's capture how the healing of the White Tower was going to play out, at least the general idea of it. Somehow, Egwene would win the White Tower over from within.
As usual, Jordan dropped the hero character into the boiling kettle with every intention of leaving her to torture and agony for a long, long time -- isn't three books the usual expecation? No real progress was made in KOD towards Egwene's eventual triumph after all.
I must say that I love this series. Books 1 thru 4 see Robert Jordan creating one of the most interesting worlds in the history of Science Fiction Fantasy. Easily on par with LOTR in its originality, Jordan copied almost nothing from LOTR (like most fantasy writers) and created many races and peoples that are unique to the Wheel of Time (insofar as I'm aware.) Books 5 thru 11 added nothing to that amazing tapestry. All the best material was already revealed, and it was time to get on with telling the story. It could have been a 7 book series easily. I'm thrilled that we'll actually see the series completed.
ThunderandLightning
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Mesaana may try hanging around, but she would be extremely foolish not to get out while she can. The entire Black Ajah (what's left of it) got the hell outa dodge. Mesaana surely would have known that any form of shadow sworn is going to be rooted out -- and she can't be certain that her presence in the Tower wasn't revealed, can she?Reading this reminded me of a question I've been meaning to ask for a while: Is Mesaana still hiding in the White Tower, after the end of tGS? I really do need to read the book again...
Otherwise, nice summary, Thunder - it's good to see a bit of activity in the Jordan boards for a change.
Talysia
Lady of Autumn
No, that's a good point - I'd be surprised if she hadn't made a run for it, too. Mind you, given her track record and current standing in Moridin and the Dark One's eyes, I could almost see her staying on to try and wreak any havoc she could. That would mean she had found a way around the Oath Rod, though...
I guess I'll have to wait and see. Hopefully, there won't be too many delays before Towers of Midnight is released.
I guess I'll have to wait and see. Hopefully, there won't be too many delays before Towers of Midnight is released.
ThunderandLightning
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Therein lies the problem with Robert Jordan doing it. 10,000 pages is probably no exaggeration at all, and I think we all know it very well. It is also the equivalent 10 additional books. And that is BEFORE Jordan got around to writing them (which would have probably doubled the amount of material.)
I think Jordan truly wanted to finish the story, he just couldn't stop himself. Jordan just got so thoroughly lost in the wonderful world he had created. He seemed to have a very detailed idea of what it was like in his head and he simply couldn't help himself -- whenever the opportunity arose to tell everyone about something new or add details to something we already knew about, he did it. It didn't seem to matter how trivial or how much it pushed the Last Battle further and further into the future.
Sanderson is quite obviously telling the tale Jordan intended, he's just doing it in a lot less pages with a lot less fluff. I don't think Robert Jordan was even remotely capable of finishing this series in only 3 books. I love his work, but it's just telling it how it is.
murphy
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(snip)
I guess I'll have to wait and see. Hopefully, there won't be too many delays before Towers of Midnight is released.
Tor has it scheduled for release on October 26, this year.
bunnypeaches
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I can't wait. I wish Waterstones would let me buy it at midnight like the Harry Potter books. It'd be worth it, I love storming through new books as soon as I get them, then re-reading them at a leisurely pace to take in all the little details. That sounds so geeky now that I see it written down...
Talysia
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Amazon give the 4th of November for the UK Hardcover release date.
According to Mr Sanderson himself he he is revising what has been written so far, and will then return to the actual writing of the book, everything in keeping with the planned deadline. So fingers crossed.
According to Mr Sanderson himself he he is revising what has been written so far, and will then return to the actual writing of the book, everything in keeping with the planned deadline. So fingers crossed.
Talysia
Lady of Autumn
That's not too much longer, and I'll be happy if I can read it this year. Thanks, PM.
Ross Foster
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Sorry new person alert. If I'm rewinding this thread, sorry. Just finished The Gathering Storm and thought it was really good, a fine return to the tempo and sense of adventure of the first six books. I posted a bit about Matt on another thread basically saying it was good to have him back, even if the haunted town was of no importance to the story. Thought Sanderson did a brilliant job, Rand answering back to the Aes Sedai, finally meeting the Seanchen and generally starting to stick up for himself. Still find the tower story line a little boring, but that maybe that i find the Aes Sedai a little too arrogant and not at all like i want tham to be [by now i think we all understand that some Aes Sedai think Rand and all men need contrilling], However that is related to all the books, so all in all a great book. One question, does anybody else really want Rand to seriously start kicking arse [sorry] and sorting out the seanchen ands all the other obvious enemies around him, appreciate he needs to be human but still, some heads require cracking. Matt rules. Brilliant name Talysia.
ThunderandLightning
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Weird, book has been on the shelves for 6 months now in the USA. What's up with the delay? Can you order it or anything, or is that just too expensive?
Talysia
Lady of Autumn
Sorry to hear that, Rosie - I hope they get your copy in soon.
Ross, not to worry about rewinding the thread. I rather liked the way the Tower storyline was handled in this book, and it was good to get some of the loose ends tied up. As for Rand, well, I'm personally looking forward to more scenes between him and Moridin. I loved the exchange between the two in tGS.
Ross, not to worry about rewinding the thread.
I rather liked the way the Tower storyline was handled in this book, and it was good to get some of the loose ends tied up. As for Rand, well, I'm personally looking forward to more scenes between him and Moridin. I loved the exchange between the two in tGS.Thanks Talysia, I hope so too!
Bit too expensive for me, T&L. Anyway, I only wanted to get the Mass Paperbook Edition this times which usually comes out a bit later that the Trade edition, which is what I usually get.
We usually have to wait quite a while after the USA & UK editions come out.
Bit too expensive for me, T&L. Anyway, I only wanted to get the Mass Paperbook Edition this times which usually comes out a bit later that the Trade edition, which is what I usually get.
We usually have to wait quite a while after the USA & UK editions come out.
ThunderandLightning
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CAUTION, SOME SPOILERS:
IMHO, this is the Wheel evening the odds. Thus far, Rand Al'Thor has relied heavily on dumb luck to see him through. The remaining Forsaken have intact memories of the Age of Legends, along with countless talents and abilities long since forgotten. LTT has all the knowledge of the Age of Legends too, but up till now LTT had a death wish (along with being a tad crazy.) He wasn't reliable nor stable. When Rand and LTT accept their destiny and merge into one, the ultimate champion for the Light is at long last born. (Jordan just never got around to making it happen of course.)
The new Rand Al'Thor is many things that he was not before the merge. We HOPE, one of those things is complete and total sanity. I think we'll see a man who isn't going to terrify everyone he encounters at a glance -- which is the only way he'll be able to successfully negotiate with the Seanchan and actually have anyone bother following when he wants to lead the world to the Last Battle. After all, who follows a madman? But on the other hand, the new Rand Al'Thor has immediate access to more tricks with the One Power than anyone who ever lived. Probably more than any of the Forsaken. He's ready to take up Callandor, and aimed like a missile at Tarmon Gaidon.
I think we can safely say that Rand Al'Thor is ready to start kicking ass and taking names.
I'm all in favor it it certainly. I think that Robert Jordan's solution all along was that Rand Al'Thor and Lews Therin Tellamon were going to merge into one person.
IMHO, this is the Wheel evening the odds. Thus far, Rand Al'Thor has relied heavily on dumb luck to see him through. The remaining Forsaken have intact memories of the Age of Legends, along with countless talents and abilities long since forgotten. LTT has all the knowledge of the Age of Legends too, but up till now LTT had a death wish (along with being a tad crazy.) He wasn't reliable nor stable. When Rand and LTT accept their destiny and merge into one, the ultimate champion for the Light is at long last born. (Jordan just never got around to making it happen of course.)
The new Rand Al'Thor is many things that he was not before the merge. We HOPE, one of those things is complete and total sanity. I think we'll see a man who isn't going to terrify everyone he encounters at a glance -- which is the only way he'll be able to successfully negotiate with the Seanchan and actually have anyone bother following when he wants to lead the world to the Last Battle. After all, who follows a madman? But on the other hand, the new Rand Al'Thor has immediate access to more tricks with the One Power than anyone who ever lived. Probably more than any of the Forsaken. He's ready to take up Callandor, and aimed like a missile at Tarmon Gaidon.
I think we can safely say that Rand Al'Thor is ready to start kicking ass and taking names.
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