Is artistic quality meaningful in any objective sense?

What does it mean to say that a book is objectively poor quality but that millions of people love it?

To rephrase my point, do you agree that it might mean more to say "this book is generally judged to be poor by those who've read a lot of books, but millions of people who've read hardly any books love it"?

Though an oversimplification, this seems to be the case with things like Eragon, Da Vinci Code, etc.
 
To rephrase my point, do you agree that it might mean more to say "this book is generally judged to be poor by those who've read a lot of books, but millions of people who've read hardly any books love it"?

Though an oversimplification, this seems to be the case with things like Eragon, Da Vinci Code, etc.
But then it is not merely quantity but having read the right sort of books. I'm reasonably well read (compared to many) but only within particular genres. Many literary snobs might well regard my opinion as worth little. Who gets to say what sort of books are important?
 
lol. Apparently, we sorted this problem out years ago in the North of Ireland

Art is anything which is funded by the Arts Council, and is therefore treated as such by the media, pundits, critics, etc, under instruction. Anything not funded by the Arts Council is not art and therefore ignored across the board.

The process is a purely administrative one, performed by civil servants. Now, you might ask - what are the criteria used by the civil servants to assess whether a piece of work is art and therefore worth funding?

Well, that is the secret ingredient, like coca-cola. ;)

I realise that the above situation might be described as horrific or, indeed, Soviet - but it provides a wonderful atmosphere for dissidents.
 
But then it is not merely quantity but having read the right sort of books. I'm reasonably well read (compared to many) but only within particular genres. Many literary snobs might well regard my opinion as worth little. Who gets to say what sort of books are important?

To take Eragon as an example, much of the criticism I read when trawling through the amazon reviews (and don't ask me why I wasted all those hours because God knows I have no idea) came from its perceived faults within the genre, in comparison with other fantasies. No one was saying "this is crap because it fails to do anything new with form" or "this is not a novel about books talking to other books and as such is worthless".

I think the value of your opinion would depend on the extent to which you'd developed your critical faculties when reading, compared to the critical faculties of the person seeking your opinion.

EG, if person A reads books purely for entertainment, then he's likely to be an excellent judge of what makes a cracking page-turner. If B reads for the same reasons, then B is likely to value A's opinion as to what to read next. If B reads with a hyper-awareness of form, language, associations with other novels, etc, then he might find A's opinion not so valuable because it wouldn't take into account these areas that B finds important. And it works the other way of course: if B recommends a novel because it subverts various norms of the genre, but it doesn't tell a rollicking good tale, then A won't be very impressed with B's recommendation either.

So, to summarise ... what was the question again?
 
Let's take this in stages:
A) A piece of art is something that embodies more than itself. (Okay, that definition can include flags, for example, and team strips.)

B) A piece of art is something that embodies more than itself in a non-stereotypical way. (This eliminates most of the claims of flags and team strips.)


C) A piece of art is more significant if it either:
  1. embodies more than itself in a non-stereotypical way for a siginificant number of people; or
  2. embodies more than itself in a profoundly non-stereotypical way for a smaller number of people.
D) Truly great art, as you might expect, embodies more than itself in a profoundly non-stereotypical way for a significant number of people.
Simples. ;):) (Give or take defining "embodies more than itself" and "profoundly" and "significant".)
 
This discussion of art seems to be very audience-centric. Does this mean that a piece of art kept in a darkenned room and never read / viewed etc, cannot be a great piece of art?
 
Does this mean that a piece of art kept in a darkenned room and never read / viewed etc, cannot be a great piece of art?
Almost certainly.

(The artist might think that he or she has produced a great work of art, but no-one else would have any way of knowing one way or the other.)
 
Almost certainly.

(The artist might think that he or she has produced a great work of art, but no-one else would have any way of knowing one way or the other.)

I see what you're saying but is this only because art is so subjective? It can only be good becaue of the audience's judgemnet? It cannot have any intrinsic "great" quality independent of an audience?

A well made chair for instance would be a well made chair irrespective of whether anyone saw it becuase well made can be ojectively measured but great art needs the consensus of a significant audiance to be great?
 
That "well made chair" is an example of skill and craft, which can be deduced by, for example, reading about the attention to detail its creator put into its creation (always assuming that he or she is not lying about it**). It may or may not be an example of art. My definition - I'll admit I knocked it up on the spot (but you all knew that anyway) - would preclude it becoming art until someone noted that it embodied something outside itself, as opposed to it simply being a chair.



** - Which is another problem with any example of unseen perhaps-art: does it exist at all?
 
I'm going to stick with my earlier definiton, in which case a piece would indeed be art if it brought about an increase in "meaning" for its creator - whether or not it was ever seen by anyone else.
 
I'd have to agree with HareBrain, that art could be art if only seen by it's creator. This does still impose the need for at least an audiance of one however. Are we saying you could not close your eyes and paint a piece of art if you and no one else saw it. Is art a fact or a concept ie can it exist independently of any audience.

I guess the consensus is no from what this thread as art implies judgement and you need a judge for that.
 
* Wonders how many hundreds of thousands of literary(?) works of art exist at this very moment - given HB's definition - written by so-called aspiring writers. (Good grief: I may have created some of them! :eek:) *


*Thinks about announcing this on the the good news thread. *


Seriously, though: some true art may fail on that definition due simply to the perfectionism of the artist, while someone easily pleased will think they're a masterpiece-maker.
 
Actually, that's a good point Ursa - writing a novel is a transforming experience. Unless it's done very superficially, I can't see that it wouldn't be art, even if no-one else read it.

And an imperfect work of art is still art even if created by a perfectionist who isn't satisfied with it. Whether it's art or not doesn't depend on the definition of its creator.

(So whose definition, you ask? I'll, uhm, get back to you.)
 
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Well, I can take a swing at it; sorry for the length, but this is a complex question, and short answers really don't address the important points.

First, I suppose we should clarify some terms. The definition of "art" depends, of course, on your frame of reference. Are you speaking of the techniques, the technical virtuosity involved? Are you speaking of (as HareBrain and Peter have mentioned) the "arts and crafts" idea -- where the two are, though not synonymous, more closely related than is generally the case? Or are you speaking of the artist's vision and the conveyance of that vision to others?

From my understanding, the critical definition of "art" tends to be closer to the latter, though the others all play their part in the final product. In other words, art is the honest approximation of the artist's unique vision of the world using the most precise, informative means that person is capable of to convey that vision to others. This does not reduce us to "realism", as the vision does not depend entirely on objective reality, but rather on a combination of this and the human responses to whatever phenomena chosen as the basis for a particular piece of art, which can also include dreams, visions, hallucinations, phantasmagoria of different sorts, hopes, longings, and both cultural and private mythologies -- and, to quote Lovecraft, these emotions "must be handled with unsparing realism (not catch-penny romanticism)", in order to be such a genuine, honest expression of the human condition. It does, however, require verisimilitude, which many people read "realism". They are not, obviously, the same.

Also, there is a distinct difference between art, in the critical sense of the term, and material whose primary focus is to entertain (what Lovecraft, again, would called "entertainment enterprises"). Both are worthy enough endeavors, but the purpose of the latter is more often than not limited to this (as well as to making money -- a false premise of itself, generally, as writing is one of the most unlikely ways to make money that can be found), whereas the purposes of art are both to entertain, to enlighten, to provide a genuine avenue of self-expression for the artist, and to honestly address some aspect of the human experience. The one is "reading matter", essentially used to kill time or avoid boredom; the latter enriches one's experience and understanding of life and of oneself.

Yes, there are subjective levels to deciding what is "art" and what is not, but most of the "rules" governing what is quality or not are things which have been evolved over a very long period of time, based on a gradual growth of knowledge of what actually works best at communicating these visions to others, and what continues to serve this function over an increasing period. No work of art is high quality throughout; there will be rough patches and fumbles by even the greatest (Homer, Shakespeare, Marlowe, Poe, Wharton, etc.); also, no single work of art will "hit the spot" with everyone, as individual readers -- no matter how broad their interests or perspective -- also have their blind spots, prejudices, pet peeves, and "soft spots" or sentimentalities. Nonetheless, these criteria are fairly objective, as they are based on what has succeeded best throughout history, and what remains viable (and vital, in the sense of "alive", "vibrant") years, decades, centuries, even millennia, after it was originally proffered to the world. Were the reverse true, and it was entirely subjective, then no critic could ever find value -- let alone high value -- in a piece which was not to their own liking; something which is manifestly not the case.

Of course, in order to do so (as HareBrain has pointed out), a wider and deeper exposure to literature (or other types of art) is required, as well as an ability to read critically -- something few lay people do. By and large, even heavy readers are lazy readers; they do not hone their judgment but are content to put forth as little effort as possible and wish to be (as you point out) entertained. But what entertains today is likely to bore tomorrow... and is almost certain to do so in a century or more... unless the writer concerned has put forth the effort to achieve a great deal more than merely entertain. Edmund Burke addressed this question very well in his essay "On Taste", often included as a prefatory essay to his work A Philosophical Inquiry into the Origin of Our Ideas of the Sublime and Beautiful -- two works I highly recommend to anyone wishing to genuinely think about such issues.

Lovecraft was also one who thought deeply about such matters, and you can find numerous passages in his letters (as well as some of his essays) on the subject; some of the most enlightening are those to Zealia Brown Reed (Bishop) and Woodburn Harris -- of the former, I would recommend, for shorter discussions, Selected Letters II, pp. 141-46, and 297-302. There is also this, from a letter to Elizabeth Toldridge:

False or insincere amusement is the sort of activity which does not meet the real psychological demands of the hunan glandular-nervous system, but merely affects to do so. Real amusement is the sort which is based on a knowledge of real needs, and which therefore hits the spot. This latter kind of amusement is what art is -- and there is nothin[g] more important in the universe.

-- SLIII.21​

A few excerpts from his letter to Harris may clarify things a bit here, too:

I'd say that good art means the ability of any one man to pin down in some permanent and intelligible medium a sort of idea of what he sees in Nature that nobody else sees. In other words, to make the other fellow grasp, through skilled selective care in interpretive reproduction or symbolism, some inkling of what only the artist himself could possibly see in the actual objective scene itself.... The picture can, if it be good art, give you something in the real scene which you couldn't have gathered for yourself -- which only the particular artist who painted the picture coul ever have gathered and preserved for other people to see. Of course, therer is just the same inevitable diversity of vision when we look at a work of art -- i.e., no two spectators see quite the same thing. But in this case the artist, through his knowledge of the difference between his especial vision and the average of mass vision, (as tested by a comparison of many artists' results) has been able to supply guideposts to a very great extent; so that we cannot fail to recognise his emphasis on those features of the scene which he alone has beheld in the proportions represented. That is what self-expression is, and self-expression is art. A man is a true artist according to his ability to make other people see the visible or emotional or imaginative world as he sees it, without departing from the true basic outlines of the world he is delineating.[...] [The pleasurable effect of art on the viewer is that], for one thing, the sight of the other man's vision, with its emphasis on the personally selective element, tends to bring out his own subconscious memories of kindred aspects of vision -- that is to drag up to consciousness impressions received and retained in the subconscious, but never before realised. This means the discovery of something new and unexpected in oneself[....] Yet because it was never before consciously registered, it has all the striking fascination of absolute newness as well. The work of art has enlarged our supply of conscious memory-wealth -- has shewn us to be richer than we thought we were It has, in all truth, enriched and developed us. This enrichment is permanent, because the raising to consciousness of a new type of vision enables the spectator to exercise this new type in his subsequent contacts with Nature. We see and feel more in Nature from having assimilated works of authentic art.[...] Besides the joy of discovering untapped wells in ourselves, there is the joy of capturing another's vision -- the sense of expansion and adventure inherent in viewing Nature through a larger proportion of the total eyes of mankind. We derive from this process a feeling of magnification in the cosmos -- of having approached the universal a trifle more closely[....] Another thing which art does is to intensify and clarify our own personal and conscious reaction toward Nature, by setting our minds definitely into the pattern of creative selection.[...] The constant discovery of different peoples' subjective impressions of things, as contained in genuine art, forms a slow, gradual approach, or faint approximation of an approach, to the mystic substance of absolute reality itself -- the stark, cosmic reality which lurks behind our varying subjective impressions.

(Oh, and Interference might find this bit interesting -- from the same letter: "Art is the gateway of life -- and in the opinion of many, myself included, the only reason that any highly developed man of sense has for remaining alive".)

(continued....)
 
So much for the difference between "art" and "entertainment". What are some of the criteria for what makes good from bad art? Well, some of that has been touched on above, but a little clarification may be in order. Most of this depends on language, as that is the tool for communication when it comes to writing. But both within and beyon that general category, there are different points to be addressed:

1.) Verisimilitude -- that is, an honest attempt at a genuine approximation of the reactions of characters to any given situation. One of the prime examples cited with horror fiction, for instance, is the too easy acceptance of phenomena which genuinely violate the accepted perceptions of how the real world functions. Machen, in his "The White People", gives the following set of examples:

What would your feelings be, seriously, if your cat or your dog began to talk to you, and to dispute with you in human accents? You would be overwhelmed with horror. I am sure of it. And if the roses in your garden sang a weird song, you would go mad. And suppose the stones in the road began to swell and grow before your eyes, and if the pebble that you noticed at night had shot out stony blossoms in the morning?


As noted above, handling of the human aspect of tales with "unsparing realism (not catch-penny romanticism)." Anything else is a lie and a fake, and however much we may enjoy the story itself, it has no genuine impact on our emotions because, even at its most engaging, we know the writer has falsified his characters' claim to our attention as people rather than cardboard constructs. We may enjoy playing with paper dolls, but in the final analysis they're darned poor company.

2,) Choice of vocabulary -- using of the proper terms to convey the information the writer wishes to convey in the most concise manner possible. This does not mean avoidance of "big" or unusual words, as those words themselves convey not only a certain gist, but specific nuances, subtleties, and associations, all of which color our perception of what is being said. If using a simpler, more common word would require going to greater length to convey the same amount of information, then it is false economy to avoid the more specialized vocabulary. Genuinely arcane, archaic, or recondite words should be avoided where unnecessary, but if they describe or define in briefer span what it is you're trying to describe, or aid in building a genuine feel for the milieu presented (as is so often the case with fantasies such as those of Clark Ashton Smith, for example), then by all means use them. Using a common or pedestrian vocabulary which results in much lengthier descriptions or exposition quickly tires the reader (much like my posts, I fear), where use of the more unusual word at worst distracts for a moment if used properly, so that at least the general sense (and some of the resonances) may be gathered by context.

3.) Attention to the manner of writing. Again, Lovecraft addresses this in his essay "Notes on Writing Weird Fiction":

Revise the entire text, paying attention to vocabulary, syntax, rhythm of prose, proportioning of parts, niceties of tone, grace and convincingness of transitions (scene to scene, slow and detailed action to rapid and sketchy time-covering action and vice versa . . . etc., etc., etc.), effectiveness of beginning, ending, climaxes, etc., dramatic suspense and interest, plausibility and atmosphere, and various other elements.


In other words, making the particular type of narration fit the passage in question, and also making certain that the overall impression is that of an organic whole, rather than a series of stitched-together parts -- a literary Frankenstein's monster, as it were.

(Incidentally, I highly recommend this essay -- which is really quite brief -- to any prospective writer. For the sake of convenience, it can be found at the following link.)

Fantastic Horror presents "Notes on Writing Weird Fiction" by H. P. Lovecraft

4.) Adherence to the "rules" one sets out early on in the tale. This is especially true with fantasy and science fiction, where the worlds are most often created ones, or pictures of the primary world where violations of the norm are introduced. If a writer sets up a world or a situation where certain rules apply, then they must abide by those rules unless they have deftly inserted material throughout the work to allow for those rules to "realistically" change. A sudden shift in these basic premises of the tale -- say, having a sorcerer whose body was burnt to ashes and dispersed to the winds and whose abilities to harness magic, according to the rules either stated or implied in the work to this point, suddenly being able to appear to complete his purposes -- completely disrupts the "willing suspension of disbelief" and makes the entire work, no matter how carefully constructed to that point, utterly ludicrous and unworth pursuing.

(Granted, this is a major violation, but such do happen in some fantasies now and again, and subtler violations of this principle are numerous. The closest exception which comes to mind is Moorcock's Chaos, where worlds and universes can change at the whim of the Lords of Hell; but even here he is careful to keep such relegated to their own realm, where such is one of the few rules existing, or when the forces of Chaos become so prominent in other realms that their presence is warping the fabric of reality... at which time collapse of that reality is imminent -- a common theme of his work that unrestrained, ungoverned creativity leads to stultification and death as quickly as too rigid an application of forms or practices. It is the balance that allows for dynamism, not chaos changing the rules.)

5.) Justness of proportion. Lovecraft mentioned this one, too, in the excerpt above, but a little more may be necessary to explain. In this case it does not mean that every element -- or even every major element -- needs to be given "equal time"; rather, that if the writer indulges in lengthy passages on things which not only seem, but are trivial in relation to the story or the development of the theme overall, then the work is malproportioned. If it is given any notable space in the narrative, it should play some important part in the developing of that narrative, either in regard to plot or development of character, milieu, or theme.

There are others, but this is certainly enough to give a good indication of at least approximately objective rules or guidelines which even an antipathetic reader can apply to almost any work, thus resulting in an acknowledgment of what is of better or poorer quality and, ultimately, what is art in the critical sense and what is not.
 
Good post, Peter. That is what it took me so long to formulate a reply. (EDIT: Whoa, I failed to notice all the new posts after Peter Graham's on page two.) Here goes:

With respect, you're still conflating what you like with what is good.
Of course I do. That was the first thing I said in my opening post. I am still not convinced why I should use the word "good" in any other sense.

Well, it helps me. It allows me to have respect for things which I don't like whilst also accepting that some of the things I do like are perhaps not imbued with any great artistic merit. I am, I hope, able to look at a David Hockney painting and see it for what it is - a good piece of work which I personally cannot stand. Is it snobbery to say that I can appreciate things which I don't like? Is it snobbery to say that some things are better than others? Is it snobbery not to judge art solely in the context of ones own reaction to it? Surely not!
Is it snobbery to look down on things even though you actually enjoy them? I would tend to say yes.

Is it snobbery to say that some things are better than others? If for no good reason, then yes. That is unfair to all the works that get maligned because they were made with some other purpose in mind than to satisfy the artistic elite.

I know I am guilty of a strawman argument by assuming that you go around and actively spread hate against anything your standards deem "bad". I guess your point is reasonable enough. I just still think your motivation is very subjective.

To which I ask you one question. Do you regard the book you are writing as a serious business?
Is my book Serious Business to me? Yes. My first priority is to create something that I like.

Do I want people to enjoy my book? Yes. Mostly, I try to ensure this by writing a story that I like and hoping that others will also like it.

Is it Serious Business for me to have experts judge my work as quality art? No. (Except as a means to an end: If the book is considered quality art, it might get good reviews which might attract fans.)

Is it Serious Business for me to be remembered in 100 years? No. Sure, I guess it would be sort of nice, but I would rather have ten fans in my lifetime than a hundred fans after I die.

For some people that might be right. I agree that would be sad. But for most of us, it ain't that dark. As Interference says, the appreciation of beauty is one of the great things about life. The more we discuss it the better. The more we strive for beauty, the better.
But is the appreciation of beauty not a completely subjective thing? By this argument, it seems to me that we are back to "objective quality measurement as a statistical indication of enjoyment", as I described in my reply to HareBrain above.
 
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Can anything even be objectively good or of high quality? Aren't the measures of quality simply a matter of convention, those attributes that it has come into general agreement to regard as important?

If the conventions work, why not use them? If our conventions can give us enough to see a qualititative difference between a hand-stitched carpet and a tea towel produced in a Chinese sweat shop, they why on earth should they not be of equal value when comparing the Mona Lisa with my telephone pad doodlings?

If we are to say that all human consensus is fundamentally unsafe, then we are no longer discussing art and instead are dismantling (or, worse still, deconstructing) thousands of years of social development. Fair enough. But if we are denying the possibility of any objective yardstick, art is just whatever anyone says that it is. I just saw half a discarded sandwich in a gutter being pecked by seagulls. It made me think of the fleeting nature of life. The sandwich was therefore art. I think not....


What does it mean to say that a book is objectively poor quality but that millions of people love it? It is a book that according to the criteria of many is of good quality.

Not so. One can appreciate a book because it is of good quality, but one can also appreciate it because it's good fun, or because it allows one to relax after a hard day at work. Appreciation is not always judged in the context of artistic integrity. Miils & Boon are read by millions. Every one is pretty much the same - in fact I understand that potential authors are presented with a manual setting out how they are to be written. It would be hard to call the average Mills & Boon a work of art.


Surely saying a popular piece of art is of low quality is elitism, plain and simple?

I agree. But no-one did say that as far as I can see.

One group believing they know better than everyone else and attempting to impose their notion of quality.

This is precisely what it isn't. Go over to the Critiques section of Aspiring Writers and tell me honestly that there is simply no way of saying whether or not some pieces are better than others. Come on!

No-one is saying that the only people entitled to judge quality are a small coterie of educated media and arts world nincompoops. Any of us can look at a piece of writing and make a call on characterisation, plot, story and so on. These things are objectively understood (conventions or no!) and, in my view, help us to sort the wheat from the chaff. This also helps us define art. This allows art to exist as an objective construct and allows us to take our own likes dislikes and prejudices away from the process.

Regards,

Peter
 
Peter Graham
If the conventions work, why not use them? If our conventions can give us enough to see a qualititative difference between a hand-stitched carpet and a tea towel produced in a Chinese sweat shop, they why on earth should they not be of equal value when comparing the Mona Lisa with my telephone pad doodlings?

If we are to say that all human consensus is fundamentally unsafe, then we are no longer discussing art and instead are dismantling (or, worse still, deconstructing) thousands of years of social development. Fair enough. But if we are denying the possibility of any objective yardstick, art is just whatever anyone says that it is.
I don't think I'm saying that human consensus is "fundamentally unsafe", only that it does not constitute objective analysis. Obviously, it is quite possible to judge according to an agreed set of standards. If one is well aquainted with the generally agreed consensus, one can judge what is considered good or bad by those standards. But good or bad in an objective sense, as seperate from any subjectively determined standards, has no meaning.
Go over to the Critiques section of Aspiring Writers and tell me honestly that there is simply no way of saying whether or not some pieces are better than others. Come on!
By being well aquainted with the consensus on what constitutes good and bad writing I can most likely do so. But on the same token, the consensus itself is a constantly shifting and changing beast, being challenged all the time by rebellious newcomers. And it is a thin line to walk, to tell the difference between when one is judging something to be bad writing, or merely sticking too rigidly to convention.
 
Am I unfairly dodging the question to say that I don’t really think much about art? Or, to be more precise, the question of whether something is art or not has such little bearing on the way I appreciate things that I would only really consider it to answer a thread like this (no criticism implied of the people who have already answered, very eloquently). Instinctively, I would expect the things in an art gallery to be art, largely because someone labelled them as such. But modern art? I could say something was modern art and total rubbish at once (but I think “modern art” has connotations that “art” doesn’t). There is probably a good argument in saying that whatever art is whatever someone says is art. But I would say that there is more to it than that.

The trouble is that we are preconditioned to think of art as something delicate and refined, for various irrelevant reasons. What about “This is Spinal Tap?” On balance, I’d call it art: it’s a successful, well-made film that does what it set out to do very well. High art? No, but that’s something different. Take the essays of George Orwell. These are written in a deliberately plain, no-frills style (writing like this is arguably intrinsic to Orwell’s outlook on life). There is nothing self-consciously “difficult” or “clever” about the writing style. Are these art? Yes, I think they must be, if “art” has any meaning beyond showing off. They are very carefully written – it takes a lot of work to write that clearly – and fulfil their purpose very well, in that they are informative and persuasive.

So now I think carefully about it, I reckon I could lay down some very loose and basic criteria for what I would call “art”. Firstly, it needs to be the deliberate product of (more or less) conscious intelligence. A piece of driftwood couldn’t be art, although there could be art in the way you chose to display it. Secondly, and more difficultly, art requires some sort of integrity. This probably means that the person making it has to try to make it good (rather than, say, to impress someone or make money). Often this means taking it seriously at some fundamental level – meaning it, I guess. This means that a piece of work which requires you to believe something that the artist doesn’t believe or which is self-evidently rubbish won’t work. Thirdly, it has to succeed, probably in the way it was intended. A film that’s so bad it’s entertaining probably has failed at being art (or at least successful art). This third concept is the weakest, to my mind, and depends whether you feel something can be valid as art and yet a failure at the same time.

But in truth I think the concept is so nebulous that it seems hardly worth trying to grasp. Someone once said of obscenity “I know it when I see it”: I think I agree.

EDIT: Sorry about tiny text - I'm not sure how to alter it!
 

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