Horror Masterworks Series...

[GOLLUM]

Maybe there should be a Masterwork of assorted shorts?

I like that idea actually.

Yellow Wallpaper was going to be one of my nominations.

Now hurry up and answer the phone......

 

[Fried Egg]

I would like to see a few entries to the respective Masterworks series that are volumes of short stories by assorted authors. Authors who wrote one or two great stories but not enough to devote an entire volume to them.

 

[j d worthington]

The "horror vs. dark fantasy" debate is one which is as unlikely to be resolved as that concerning "science fiction vs. science fantasy vs. fantasy" -- if anything, there are even more numerous examples of things which simply don't fit into any tight little niche with "horror" than there are in the other case. Actually, I would tend to classify "dark fantasy" as a subset of "horror", as the primary purpose of the genre is to rouse feelings of terror, horror, dread, awe, and wonder (albeit of a more sinister sort).

As Campbell (a critic of no mean abilities himself) has put it, there's a broad range of the horror (or, as it is increasingly being called, weird) genre; not all weird is horrific or supernatural, neither is all supernatural necessarily weird. It largely depends on what the aim of the tale is as far as emotional reaction from the audience. And then, as JP notes, there's always Devendra P. Varma's definition of the difference between "terror" and "horror"....

CAS -- his tales ranged from "orientales" to satire to outright grue to gothic to interplanetaries to imaginary world fantasies (which could be either humorous or horrific or even melancholy or pathetic -- in the positive sense -- in intent and tone). A large amount of his work fits several of these at once. No, he wasn't a "horror" writer, any more than Poe or Bierce or Lovecraft or Howard; but a fair amount of his work can easily fit into that category.

JP -- I see your point about Klein's novellas, and I debated about which to go for; but I choose The Ceremonies because it is one of the most finely crafted horror novels of the later twentieth century, whereas not all of Klein's shorter works are of the same caliber... although the collection Dark Gods certainly fits that bill....

As I said, if we are going to include anthologies in this, then there are any number of classic anthologies whose reissuance would be a boon, not to mention newly created tomes of that sort. This is a field which has been going for a very, very long time, and there is an enormous amount of material to cull from....

 

[dask]

I always thought "dark fantasy" was a term some were using as a substitute for horror the same way speculative fiction was preferred by disgruntled readers of science fiction. Well, here's something to pass the time until the dust settles.

 

[iansales]

I shall just quietly sidle away after starting this discussion...

 

[Moontravler]

Heh, yes interesting the blending of the lines between Horror and Thriller, Horror and Dark Fantasy, D. Fantasy/Thriller and S.F, and how it is differently perceived by different people.

For instance, to me much of Clive Barker is more Dark Fantasy, yet many others would immediately classify him in the Horror genre.

Others like Ray Bradbury, which I had traditionally seen as a Dark SF (but still SF) writer, is classified by some into the horror genre too.

Interestingly I have here right before me an anthology (I was reading from it earlier)titled "Thrillers" with works by M.R. James, Poe, Stoker, and le Fanu's Carmilla, among others.

Perhaps a blanket term such as "Dark Fiction" might be more useful in a case like this?

Really looking forward to your list, Gollum.

 

[j d worthington]

I shall just quietly sidle away after starting this discussion...

Oho! No fair doing that!

I am curious, though... why do you feel horror is limited to such a (relatively) narrow range? Is this based on some critical criteria you've encountered (or developed), or simply the impression you'd had, or...?

I always thought "dark fantasy" was a term some were using as a substitute for horror the same way speculative fiction was preferred by disgruntled readers of science fiction. Well, here's something to pass the time until the dust settles.

No, I'd say there is something of a distinction, but I think it is almost (though not quite) analagous to, say, the distinction between the various types of tales which fall under the heading of "mysteries": "cozy" mysteries, hard-boiled detective, police procedurals, armchair detective, locked-room mysteries, historical, supernatural or occult detectives, spy thrillers, etc., etc., etc. And then there are those things such as John D. MacDonald's Travis McGee stories, which don't necessarily fit into any of above, or even Voltaire's tales of Zadig the Babylonian....

Here's Wiki's take on the matter (along with the entries on the related genres):

Dark fantasy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horror_(genre)

Fantasy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Much, for instance, of Karl Edward Wagner's work, especially the Kane stories, can easily fall into a somewhat separate "dark fantasy" or general "horror" categorization. Moorcock's Elric is closer to the "fantasy" end of "dark fantasy" than horror, though there are certainly horrific elements in some of them (at times quite powerful). Yet E. R. Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros, though having some definite horrific elements, and often of a dark nature, would not, I think, fall into the "dark fantasy" or "horror" categorization save by the broadest of definitions....

I also meant to mention earlier: Yes, Russell Kirk is someone who should definitely be included; and the only reason I refrain from included Ligotti in a "masterworks" series such as this is his (relatively) recent emergence in the field -- certainly not because of the quality of his work, which would qualify him immediately. And, for something of the same reason, I refrained from mentioning CAS because of the volume of his work in the Fantasy Masterworks series.

Other things which I think should be included would be Thomas Tryon's novels, The Other and Harvest Home; several pieces by Dan Simmons should be considered, such as The Song of Kali or Carrion Comfort; Kingsley Amis' The Green Man; Harlan Ellison's Deathbird Stories certainly should be considered, given how many writers have mentioned it as an influence and the fact that it has been a very popular book, going through numerous editions; I, too, would include Shirley Jackson, though whether for The Haunting of Hill House, We Have Always Lived in the Castle, or a selection of her darker short tales would be difficult to decide; several of Ramsey Campbell's other titles would also be worthy of consideration, such as The Grin of the Dark, The Darkest Part of the Woods, and at least one or two of his other collections (though I would also like to see "Needing Ghosts" included in a collection in such a series).

And this isn't even touching (save for one or two instances) the eighteenth and nineteenth-century classics of the field....

 

[Moontravler]

I've just rediscovered a work called "I Have no Mouth & I Must Scream" by Harlan Ellison. (In fact, I ordered it online earlier today) .

Just as an exercise in seeing who would classify what where, I'd be interested to know where you guys would classify that, as I must admit, I'm not sure myself...

 

[dask]

Thanks for all the work. I found the Dark Fantasy link especially helpful.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I would want to include a collection of stories by Vernon Lee, and another collection by R. Murray Gilchrist.

It occurs to me, going over the various titles mentioned here, that I have read a great many horror short stories and novellas, but when it comes to novels I either don't read them or don't like them.

Although, speaking of the overlap with thriller and dark fantasy, where is the dividing line between horror and gothic? If we could stretch the boundaries to encompass something like Le Fanu's Uncle Silas, I would include that one, simply because Uncle Silas and Madame de la Rougierre make my skin crawl (particularly the latter).

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

It's hard to draw firm lines. Genres evolve from each other and shade into each other at the edges. The first detective novel and the first SF novel both have heavy doses of the gothic in them, for instance.

 

[j d worthington]

It's hard to draw firm lines. Genres evolve from each other and shade into each other at the edges. The first detective novel and the first SF novel both have heavy doses of the gothic in them, for instance.

For that matter, as Jack and Barbara Wolf demonstrated in their history/anthology Ghosts, Castles, and Victims, they still do, though sometimes slightly transmuted or not so obvious.

I would want to include a collection of stories by Vernon Lee, and another collection by R. Murray Gilchrist.

It occurs to me, going over the various titles mentioned here, that I have read a great many horror short stories and novellas, but when it comes to novels I either don't read them or don't like them.

Although, speaking of the overlap with thriller and dark fantasy, where is the dividing line between horror and gothic? If we could stretch the boundaries to encompass something like Le Fanu's Uncle Silas, I would include that one, simply because Uncle Silas and Madame de la Rougierre make my skin crawl (particularly the latter).

Three more suggestions which I would agree with. Vernon Lee should definitely be a part of such a series and Gilchrist, though rather obscure, deserves to be represented by at least being included in an anthology or two, if not a collection of his tales; while Uncle Silas is one of the best examples of that particular type of terror tale ever written and, like so much of Le Fanu, capable of interpretation on so many levels... especially that pair!

Personally, I think the Gothic should be included with at least a tiny handful of selections... though which ones would be difficult to choose. Though I think The Mysteries of Udolpho certainly deserves to be a part of such, it is such a long novel that I'm not sure how many modern "horror" readers would make it through the thing.... Then again, it has remained in print, complete, for some decades now (and gone through several printings, as I recall), at least since Oxford brought it back.... But it might be better to have a collection of lesser-known short examples of the form, rather than two or three novels as diverse as, say, The Monk, Udolpho, and Melmoth.... There is, of course, always The Italian's Schedoni......

I've just rediscovered a work called "I Have no Mouth & I Must Scream" by Harlan Ellison. (In fact, I ordered it online earlier today) .

Just as an exercise in seeing who would classify what where, I'd be interested to know where you guys would classify that, as I must admit, I'm not sure myself...

Hmmm... good question. Of course, to be honest, I'd class it as parable, as with so much of Ellison's work. (For example, from that collection, that would include "Eyes of Dust", "Lonelyache", "The World of the Myth", and "Delusion for a Dragon-Slayer", as well as the title piece.) That particular story, though, could also be classified as science fiction, fantasy, or horror... or a blending of all three! (Not much help, was I? Sorry, but I have read far too much to think that much of any worthwhile literature can be strictly classed as only one type of tale or another; and the best usually fall into several categories at the same time.)

Thanks for all the work. I found the Dark Fantasy link especially helpful.

De nada. It's a fun topic, and I enjoy discussing such things....

Incidentally... I think perhaps Charlie Grant himself, who invented the term "dark fantasy", should also be represented somewhere....

Teresa: I'm rather surprised at your statement about the novels, given the broad nature of the field. I would have thought several things might have appealed to you. Could you perhaps give me any insight into why the novels haven't?

 

[GOLLUM]

OK, here's my tentative list of my first 20 Horror Masterwork titles (I couldn't easily limit to 15).

Whilst I did include some obvious choices I also tried to add a world literary feel to the list and was reasonably broad in my interpretation of Horror. Like other members, I did not include authors e.g CAS, WHH etc. who already appear in other Masterwork series. I also tried to nominate a novel or novella where I felt able to as several here have already included respective collections. Having said that, in most cases I nominated collections where novels were either non-existent or not reaching the high water mark of related collections. Another factor for me was to include works whose cost is currently prohibitive due to the rarity of the item. After all, this is one of the major pluses regarding the existing Masterwork series.

If anyone wants me, I'll be in my bunker reading my latest Kawabata collection....

In no particular order....

Dracula – Bram Stoker
Frankenstein – Mary Shelley
Medusa – E.H. Visiak
In A Lonely Place (Collection) – Karl Edward Wagner
Dark Domain (collection) – Stefan Grabinski
Island Of Dr. Moreau – H.G. Wells
Haunting Of Hill House – Shirley Jackson
Nightmare Factory (collection) – Thomas Ligotti
Human Chair (collection) – Edogawa Rampo
Dark Feasts (collection) – Ramsey Campbell
At The Mountains of Madness – H.P. Lovecraft
Tales of Mystery and Imagination – Edgar Allan Poe
Land of Laughs – Jonathon Carroll
Ghost story – Peter Straub
House Of Souls (collection) – Arthur Machen
Collected Ghost Stories – MR James
The Decapitated Chicken and Other Stories - Horacio Quiroga
Uncle Silas – Sheridan Le Fanu
King In Yellow (collection) – Robert W Chambers
Sub Rosa (collection) – Robert Aickman

 

[j d worthington]

Very nice list there, Mr. G. I'd certainly have no problem with any of those being included, and I'm glad you brought some of them in. (Incidentally, the price thing is one of the many reasons I keep harping on the Visiak. I know it has had more recent printings in the UK, but here I believe it has been OP since its first publication, despite its almost legendary status in the field. Somebody needs to bring this one back in an affordable, mass-market edition!!!!!)

One thing, though... I mentioned The Outsider and Others, which of course includes At the Mountains of Madness... as well as an enormous amount of other Lovecraft material. This one is a sort of "best of", at least as far as what was then known to exist. (The Case of Charles Dexter Ward had not yet been reassembled from its fragmentary manuscript state at the time, as I recall, and had to await inclusion in Beyond the Wall of Sleep, the second Lovecraft collection from Arkham House.) That single collection was a good round half-a-million words(!!) of Lovecraft, including his epochal essay Supernatural Horror in Literature as a final selection. For those interested in the table of contents, here it is:

The Outsider and Others - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

along with that for Beyond the Wall of Sleep:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_the_Wall_of_Sleep_(collection)

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

But the broadness of the field is irrelevant because, as I said, I haven't read a great many horror novels. I don't care for the modern authors because those I've read tend to lack subtlety, and with the Victorians, the problem (with those I've read) has been that they either drag the story out too long and, in my opinion, lose the mood, or descend into melodrama in order to keep it -- thereby sacrificing those very qualities I admire in the short fiction of some of the same authors.

Horror seems to suit me better when it is shorter than novel-length, and fortunately there is plenty of that to choose from.

 

[j d worthington]

Interesting. What you say echoes, to some degree, some of Bierce's complaints on the same issue....

 

[GOLLUM]

Very nice list there, Mr. G. I'd certainly have no problem with any of those being included, and I'm glad you brought some of them in. (Incidentally, the price thing is one of the many reasons I keep harping on the Visiak. I know it has had more recent printings in the UK, but here I believe it has been OP since its first publication, despite its almost legendary status in the field. Somebody needs to bring this one back in an affordable, mass-market edition!!!!!)

Thanks J.D.

A short history of Medusa: Following the original publication in 1929, it did see a reprint/resurgence in the UK in the '60s. That's the copy I have. Since then I know of on-one who has seen fit to reproduce this timeless classic. My copy is from the '60s and they still fetch a minimum of several hundred dollars a pop, so it's still not affordable for most people!....

Aickman's excellent Suba Rosa is another whose cost is rather prohibitive.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

Horror seems to suit me better when it is shorter than novel-length, and fortunately there is plenty of that to choose from.

I agree, I love horror, and have probably read more horror than sf or fantasy in the last year, but most of the works I'd cite are short story collections rather than novels. Then again, I like short stories a lot more than the average contemporary reader seems to.

 

[iansales]

JD - not sure. Possibly because when I started reading genre fiction, it was well-defined as a marketing category under the name horror - and it was dominated by the gory sort of stuff by Guy N Smith and James Herbert. It was only later I came across the phrase "dark fantasy", and then it seemed to apply chiefly to novels which used invented/borrowed mythologies to evoke supernatural chills.

Since then, of course, whatever neat distinctions once existed have blurred and gone.

 

[Connavar]

I'm not knowledge enough about modern horror. I think too much of horror boom,potboilers. I havent read yet of the literary gifted horror writers that are hard to find over here.


This masterwork series if existed if it had Poe,REH,William Hope Hodgson,Le Fanu type classic horror i would be fine with it.

I Am Legend by Richard Matheson too. One of few quality vampire books i have read.