What if Jon is the unlikely hero....

[chairface]

I'm a big fan of the Tyrion is a Targ theory. If he, Dany, and Jon are the three heads, it would strike me that all 3 killed their mothers in childbirth.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Speculation Alert!!!

I would post a Spoiler Alert, but the last line in this post has no basis in fact... yet.

Brian, Jon is not Dany's brother... he's her nephew.

Tyrion is Dany's brother.

So if they are fine in the past to marry brother and sister, marrying a nephew shouldn't be so big a deal?

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Omg, I can't believe Boaz is still peddling that ridiculous rumor.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

I'm a big fan of the Tyrion is a Targ theory. If he, Dany, and Jon are the three heads, it would strike me that all 3 killed their mothers in childbirth.

Good point, if a slightly gory one. Kids eh? They'll be the death of you.

 

[chairface]

Omg, I can't believe Boaz is still peddling that ridiculous rumor.

Boaz's crazy theories are the reason I started lurking around here in the first place. I just really like this one!

 

[No One]

Haven't got much to add here, but I don't see Jon ruling Winterfell. Littlefinger's Loki-esque influence will see Sansa restore the Stark name (i.e: Littlefinger, on the one hand, has practically destroyed House Stark, but will restore it with the other). I do believe Jon will remain as Lord Commander, even after he finds out about his true heritage, but I wouldn't put money on it.

With that said, and I may have mentioned this before, I can't help but think that the one major spanner in the works for the Stark family is actually Arya. I've never swayed from my very first instinct with the Arya character - that Martin was out to create a loveable character only to turn her into one of the 'bad guys' - a sort of role reversal of how things are going with Jaime. For some reason, I can't shake the idea that Arya will be the end of either Dany, Jon (the mussing of the hair is repeated too many times to not mean something highly significant), or even Bran or Hodor. Then there's Sansa, of course, and maybe the throwing of the blood orange that hits her right between the eyes - besides being funny - was something of an omen. Of course, I could be way off base with all of this...

Weirwood said it - Jon isn't an 'unlikely' hero at all. As one of the very few characters who has selflessly given himself over to a cause without the want for power or influence, he is the central hero of the piece - if there is one.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Weirwood said it - Jon isn't an 'unlikely' hero at all. As one of the very few characters who has selflessly given himself over to a cause without the want for power or influence, he is the central hero of the piece - if there is one.

My thoughts of "unlikely" was more that he will reign supreme, but not on the so called "good side". I agree, he has been the central character and has the least amount of character flaws as our other favorite characters.

Here is the delima:

The majority of people on this forum tend to believe he will uphold his oath to the Night's Watch and be dutiful. The majority also believes that he is one of the three dragons.

If he is a dragon, he should still keep his oath to the Wall and grow to be 100 years old like "Measter Aemon", correct? (granted he doesnt die protecting the Wall against the Nights watch only true enemies the (Others/Weights/Wildings/,etc.)

I personally would like to see him engaged in good sword battle scenes within the Realms battles. But, it all remains to be seen...

I think Jon will be more of a "Batman" than a "Superman" type of hero. (Not just because he's donning black of the Nights Watch either...)

 

[No One]

My thoughts of "unlikely" was more that he will reign supreme, but not on the so called "good side". I agree, he has been the central character and has the least amount of character flaws as our other favorite characters.

Ah, I see. Sorry for the mix-up. Well, it'd be easy to say that I don't see Jon becoming the 'Dark Knight' of the Realm, but then he's got a few revelations coming his way, so...who knows.

As for Jon fighting in the realms, well maybe. If, as some have speculated, the Wall is gonna come down (re: why introduce the Horn of Winter if not to use it?) then it's certainly plausible. But if the Wall stands then pulling Jon away from it would make it difficult to continue focusing a strand of the story at that location. Then again, if Stannis and Melisandre stay there, then they can remain the focus of the area while Jon sets to work on his own batmobile.

Or should that be Snowmobile? Sorry. Terrible gag.

 

[viZion]

How will Jon keep his oath to the Night's Watch and be one of the heads of the dragon and rule Winterfell?

Easy: The Wall will be destroyed. Or the Others will be completely obliterated. Or both. Either one (or both) would eliminate the need for the Night's Watch.

Alternate Easy: The final battle, or whatever climax happens, will take place at the Wall so that Jon doesn't actually have to leave. He serves his purpose and when it's all done, if he's alive, he can take over as Lord Commander again. As the "heir" to Winterfell appointed by Robb, he could easily pass it on to Bran or whoever is next in line that's still alive.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

How will Jon keep his oath to the Night's Watch and be one of the heads of the dragon and rule Winterfell?

Easy: The Wall will be destroyed. Or the Others will be completely obliterated. Or both. Either one (or both) would eliminate the need for the Night's Watch.

It was my understanding that the Nights Watch took an oath to protect and die (i dont know the "words" verbatim) for the Realm, and the "Wall" is merely a tool to their vows. This would mean if the Wall is destroyed The Watch should go down "with it's ship" sort of speak. (if he upholds his oath to the watch, regardless if he's a dragon or not)

I understand they have the right to regroup and retool, but this should be his only duty.

Alternate Easy: The final battle, or whatever climax happens, will take place at the Wall so that Jon doesn't actually have to leave. He serves his purpose and when it's all done, if he's alive, he can take over as Lord Commander again. As the "heir" to Winterfell appointed by Robb, he could easily pass it on to Bran or whoever is next in line that's still alive.

This may be the most plausible, if he maintains his position as Lord Commander. But, I just cant see Jon remaining at the Wall for the next three books.

 

[Ursa major]

For reference, here's the oath, as given in AGoT:

Hear my words and bear witness to my vow.

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

For reference, here's the oath, as given in AGoT:Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

Thanks Ursa!

Which mean's (the popular forum belief that he wont break his oath) Wall or no Wall he will be there til the end, unless of course he does breaks his oath or gets overun by the Others. It would be convenient if Danny would come and dispose of them (advertently or inadvertently) for him. It's also not carved in stone that she wont mow him down as well, depending on the counsel she has at the time. If not they don't have the man power to adequately defend it, without alot of help and dragon glass.

 

[viZion]

It was my understanding that the Nights Watch took an oath to protect and die (i dont know the "words" verbatim) for the Realm, and the "Wall" is merely a tool to their vows. This would mean if the Wall is destroyed The Watch should go down "with it's ship" sort of speak. (if he upholds his oath to the watch, regardless if he's a dragon or not)

I understand they have the right to regroup and retool, but this should be his only duty

I understand what you're saying but I think you're taking it just a tad too far here. I thought the Night's Watch was created specifically to man the Wall and keep the Others out of kingdom. Sure, they've got a fancy oath that holds them there, but that oath mentions nothing about the realm. It only mentions the Night's Watch (in the last line).

If there's no Wall then the Night's Watch could be disbanded. You could hypothesize that maybe the Night's Watch stays together but gets reassigned somewhere else. That somewhere else could be anywhere though. They could be reassigned to King's Landing where all the action is taking place! Their entire purpose could also be restructured and they'd obviously need a new oath so they would be free to come up with new rules. Maybe those new rules wouldn't preclude them from holding lands or taking a wife.

Long story short: A lot of different things could happen that would release Jon from his oath without Jon having to break his oath.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

I understand what you're saying but I think you're taking it just a tad too far here. I thought the Night's Watch was created specifically to man the Wall and keep the Others out of kingdom. Sure, they've got a fancy oath that holds them there, but that oath mentions nothing about the realm. It only mentions the Night's Watch (in the last line).

If there's no Wall then the Night's Watch could be disbanded. You could hypothesize that maybe the Night's Watch stays together but gets reassigned somewhere else. That somewhere else could be anywhere though. They could be reassigned to King's Landing where all the action is taking place! Their entire purpose could also be restructured and they'd obviously need a new oath so they would be free to come up with new rules. Maybe those new rules wouldn't preclude them from holding lands or taking a wife.

Long story short: A lot of different things could happen that would release Jon from his oath without Jon having to break his oath.

If theres alot of different things that could release him from his oath, then saying the "words" kinda looses its value doesnt it?

What does he do in the final hours of the Nights Watch, when they're being "disbanded"? "Sorry guys, i just found out i had dragon blood, i wish you good tidings, but i've got to go live out my destiny!"

Theres just some who think he will not leave the Wall and there are some who believe he will.

 

[Robin Goodfellow]

I always figured Stannis was going to sacrifice Jon to the lord of light to revive his dragons. I mean since he is brother to a king, he would count as royal blood...

 

[viZion]

If theres alot of different things that could release him from his oath, then saying the "words" kinda looses its value doesnt it?

What does he do in the final hours of the Nights Watch, when they're being "disbanded"? "Sorry guys, i just found out i had dragon blood, i wish you good tidings, but i've got to go live out my destiny!"

Theres just some who think he will not leave the Wall and there are some who believe he will.

Now you're just ignoring what I'm saying . The words have value obviously because it doesn't appear to the characters in the book that the Wall is going anywhere. If there's no Wall and the Night's Watch is disbanded or relocated then what do you think Jon should do? Hang out on the rubble for the rest of his life because he took that oath? Or move on, perhaps taking the surviving members with him on the next chapter in his life? Maybe the Night's Watch becomes the new elite guard at King's Landing. In any case, my point that there exists ways that could free Jon of his responsibility to the Night's Watch without him ever doing anything else that's dishonorable. I'm not saying that these things will happen but the possibility is there. There are crazier theories out there.

I've got some stuff from the book to back me up on this at least. Mance was searching for the Horn of Winter because it allegedly has the power to destroy the Wall. Mance doesn't use the Horn of Winter because he knows that the Wall is there to keep out the Others not the Wildlings (although I think it was used to wake the giants..i could be wrong on that). Remember, Mance isn't invading the Seven Kingdoms...he's just running from the Others! But now Stannis possesses the Horn of Winter. What's to stop him or someone else from blowing that Horn? The Wall is definitely in peril.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Now you're just ignoring what I'm saying . The words have value obviously because it doesn't appear to the characters in the book that the Wall is going anywhere. If there's no Wall and the Night's Watch is disbanded or relocated then what do you think Jon should do? Hang out on the rubble for the rest of his life because he took that oath? Or move on, perhaps taking the surviving members with him on the next chapter in his life? Maybe the Night's Watch becomes the new elite guard at King's Landing. In any case, my point that there exists ways that could free Jon of his responsibility to the Night's Watch without him ever doing anything else that's dishonorable. I'm not saying that these things will happen but the possibility is there. There are crazier theories out there.

I've got some stuff from the book to back me up on this at least. Mance was searching for the Horn of Winter because it allegedly has the power to destroy the Wall. Mance doesn't use the Horn of Winter because he knows that the Wall is there to keep out the Others not the Wildlings (although I think it was used to wake the giants..i could be wrong on that). Remember, Mance isn't invading the Seven Kingdoms...he's just running from the Others! But now Stannis possesses the Horn of Winter. What's to stop him or someone else from blowing that Horn? The Wall is definitely in peril.

I understand where you're coming from, and i tend to lean toward that same thought as per my past theories and this thread in particular. I was more or less playing devils advocate to those who don't think he'll leave the Watch due to his oath. You're right, technically the vows makes no mention of the "Realm" nor does it make mention of the physical "Wall" itself. I think where we got hung up is the technicality of whether or not they're bound to the "Wall" or to their actual "Post", and the subsequent prerequisites that will allow him to leave the watch on somewhat good terms.

 

[Ursa major]

At the end of ACoK (and perhaps other books in the series) there is a section entitled, The Men of the Night's Watch. Before it lists the men, there is this sentence:

The Night's Watch protects the realm, and is sworn to take no part in civil wars and contests for the throne.

It then adds:

Traditionally, in times of rebellion, they do honor to all kings and obey none.

The Oath says nothing about civil wars. It says that the men of the Knight's Watch must live and die at their post (and wear no crowns** and win no glory). What we lack (or perhaps it's just that I've forgotten it) is the conditions (the treaty ot treaties) under which the Night's Watch operates vis-à-vis the realm(s) to the south of the Wall.

I would have thought that where tradition has to be invoked, (treaty) law is likely to be absent.




** - but not win no crowns.

 

[TK-421]

Hi folks. Been out of it for a while.

If anyone could find such treaties, should they even exist, that would be Sam.

 

[Ursa major]

Not that he would have any reason to look into the legal position of the Night's Watch and its men....