The Candle that doesn't flicker...

[viZion]

Yes, I agree that both did make such sacrifices. However, one could argue that Jon has no other meaningful route to follow as a ******* than to join the Night's Watch and Arya has been fighting to survive ever since leaving for King's Landing.

The sacrifice I had in mind for Arya was losing Nymeria to begin with. Of course, Arya's life pretty much only got worse from that point on. When exactly was her first wolf dream? I can't remember.

 

[Lofwyr]

First, I think the answer is somewhere in between. Potentially long, to excessively long post ahead.

Can't believe this hasn't been mentioned: Aside from the Others in the prologue, the first instance of magic we see is the direwolf pups. At this point we've seen enough of them to be confident they're not just normal direwolves. This is well before Dany hatches the dragons and comes with very little apparent cost. If we're talking cost for 'magic' I'd say the cost to get the wolves was Ned and Catelyn.

The point is this, magic existed before the dragons were hatched and it was getting stronger already. The Others, many instances of magic in AGoT prior to the hatching, maegi, etc. But the hatching of the dragons appears to have acted like a catalyst or amplifier.

So I'd say the easiest guess from given info is that dragons need some amount of 'magic' present in the world to survive and thrive. As their lives are tied to it, they also have some enhancing effects on it just by being alive...consider it a strong evolutionary trait for survival. As the dragons were poisoned/dying or some combination thereof magic was waning. Maybe think of the 'latent' magic of the world as a tidal system...ebbs and flows. Dragons represent a return to high tide and stimulate things to get there.

/opinion

random side note - much of the above is similar to the 'meta' storyline of the RPG Shadowrun. Badass RPG. Cyberpunk setting...but who knows, GRRM worked a lot in sci-fi and I'm sure he knows a good framework when he sees one. I really wish the guys at Fasa could tell the future though...2012 would be so awesome.

 

[whiskeyntattoos]

I think the return of the others are the cause of the dragons coming back I mean that happens in the first paragraph of AGOT and the dragons are born at the end, plus bran starts to have some sort of powers even if they are just dreams

 

[southron sword]

The Others are ice, the dragons are fire. They are the song. with one brings the other? The Others showed up so dragons had to?

 

[The Imp]

The Others are ice, the dragons are fire. They are the song. with one brings the other? The Others showed up so dragons had to?

I've always thought of Ice being the Starks and FIre the Lannisters/Targs I still think that we will edge closer and closer to the remaining STark children reuniting. Maybe Sansa will get a new pup, the offspring of Nymeria and Ghost perhaps?

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

So we're talking direwolf incest now? That'd be a new low for GRRM surely

I'm starting to come round to SW's "trauma" theory on warging. Perhaps not a physical one though. Bran's loss of legs was a consequence of his fall but I think the true trauma was what he'd seen and what happened immediately afterwards, with the coma allowing him (and us the reader) to see his mental development.

Arya & Jon have both had "wolf dreams" but they appear to be passive acts of 'piggybacking' and not the level of true control which Bran & Sixskins showed. Maybe with Arya's new training that could change. I could see her 'warging' something to enable her to see (and lie about it of course) which could result in some interest from the House of Black and White.

 

[Ursa major]

Arya might even being able to use that talent** when she fights, though whether she'd be seriously good at it is something else entirely.









** - Let's call it warg-aiming.

 

[Boaz]

Think of Ghost and Nymeria as you'd think of Mnementh and Ramoth... and uh, well, Jon and Arya are just along for the ride as F'lar and Lessa were. I've been telling you folks to reread Jon's thoughts regarding Ygritte... it's disturbing how many times he compares her to Arya.

And as for the House of Black and White using wargs to kill.... that'd be an incredible power. Wildlings might spot it right away, but the more civilized peoples of the world might never catch on.

Edit: Warg-aiming... I just got it. Very droll, Bear.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Is there any reason to believe that there could be a possibility of more dragons? Isn't Mallisandre working on this? Or maybe even two of the three having a baby? With the emergence of magic whose to say that there will only be three (real fire breathing) dragons? Just thinking out loud....

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Melissandre is either dangerously reckless and incompetent or working for the other side. She couldn't seriously believe that trying to wake the "stone dragons" of Dragonstone... in other words, the gargoyles, was a possibility. And calling Stannis a 'King' was another stretch, as was contemplating using Edric Storm's "royal" blood.

The key component to her magics is just blood, pure and simple. She either doesn't realise this, is crazily elitest, or is trying to build up some mystique to the whole thing to cover her scary levels of ignorance.

 

[Boaz]

WS, you are making lots of sense in your posts. Not that it's something new... it's just something I noticed. If you keep this up, people will realize that my posts are ill-reasoned...

As far as I know, there are two possibilities for more dragons... both are legends. WS mentioned the first... the dragons of Dragonstone. The second is that there is a dragon actually (I don't think the NW uses this term, but let's say, cryogenically) frozen in the Wall. I don't know all the "in's and out's" of this theory, but it's somewhere here in the forum.

 

[TK-421]

Here you go:

hear me out.. a 4th dragon

Who will wake up the stone dragon

Personally, I don't buy the idea. Sorry.

As for Mel, she is one of the most intriguing character in the series. She has her own POV in ADWD where, according to GRRM, we will find out what makes her tick and whether she's for real.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Here you go:

hear me out.. a 4th dragon

Who will wake up the stone dragon

Personally, I don't buy the idea. Sorry.

As for Mel, she is one of the most intriguing character in the series. She has her own POV in ADWD where, according to GRRM, we will find out what makes her tick and whether she's for real.

Thanks for the references TK. It will be interesting to see what Mel has seen in her fire in regards to Jon. It seems that Mel and the fire reading characters can shed alot of light on the events to follow. Not to mention the candles that can see and hear all.

However, how is it that Igrette seemed to have some deeper understanding or relating information in regards to Jon and not tell him, except for "You know nothing Jon Snow" It kind of bugged me after she kept repeating this line. I wanted Jon to say well tell me what i don't know. At least it would make for good bed talk after he, <clearing my throat>, forsake his vows...

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

However, how is it that Igrette seemed to have some deeper understanding or relating information in regards to Jon and not tell him, except for "You know nothing Jon Snow" It kind of bugged me after she kept repeating this line. I wanted Jon to say well tell me what i don't know. At least it would make for good bed talk after he, <clearing my throat>, forsake his vows...

I read it as she was just amused by Jon's general naivety and virginity. That and the fact he did the classic bloke thing of speaking assuredly about things he knew nothing about, like there being no giants, Others or CotF. As Ygritte had definitely seen 1 of those, heard of another and was open to the possibility of the third she tried to let Jon know that his 'certainties' were anything but. Not that he listened.

WS, you are making lots of sense in your posts. Not that it's something new... it's just something I noticed. If you keep this up, people will realize that my posts are ill-reasoned...

As far as I know, there are two possibilities for more dragons... both are legends. WS mentioned the first... the dragons of Dragonstone. The second is that there is a dragon actually (I don't think the NW uses this term, but let's say, cryogenically) frozen in the Wall. I don't know all the "in's and out's" of this theory, but it's somewhere here in the forum.

Haha, thanks Boaz but far from it. You guys come up with all these imaginative theories and I just try and boil them down to what I hope makes sense. Hadn't realised about the dragon in the Wall. I can't see GRRM allowing it to come to life, even if the Wall comes down though. He's kept everything pretty grounded so far and throwing that sort of deus ex machina into the equation doesn't sound consistent with how the books have gone so far. But at the end of the day, only he knows!

And I'm a little torn about having a Melissandre PoV in the next book. She's much better as a mysterious figure and getting inside her head will strip that mystery away completely. Happy to be proved wrong though

 

[viZion]

As far as I know, there are two possibilities for more dragons... both are legends. WS mentioned the first... the dragons of Dragonstone. The second is that there is a dragon actually (I don't think the NW uses this term, but let's say, cryogenically) frozen in the Wall. I don't know all the "in's and out's" of this theory, but it's somewhere here in the forum.

The third one (and my favorite and the one I actually believe) is the dragon that lived under Winterfell and took off when the city was burned to the ground. To me, it's the most plausible and doesn't require any hokey, awkward magic to be performed.

 

[Ursa major]

Apart from the fact that it's Bran warging into a wolf seeing a pattern (which disappears) in the smoke and ash. And it begs the question why no adult has ever mentioned it or the problem that it was released after Winterfel was burnt, which hardly suggests that it was securely held in the first place.

(On the other hand, it may have been just-hatched and therefore small. But where was the egg?)

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

I read it as she was just amused by Jon's general naivety and virginity. That and the fact he did the classic bloke thing of speaking assuredly about things he knew nothing about, like there being no giants, Others or CotF. As Ygritte had definitely seen 1 of those, heard of another and was open to the possibility of the third she tried to let Jon know that his 'certainties' were anything but. Not that he listened.

So was Mel saying it in the same way? That's not a common phrase to say to someone in Westeros, yet it's been directed at Jon by two different people. Not to mention Ned while in his cell wishing he could talk to him one last time.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

I think the Mel thing was a classic author's nod to the audience. I wouldn't be surprised to meet plenty of people in Braavos who say "Just so" as well. I don't think Mel meant it in exactly the same way as Ygritte, though they were both tackling Jon's skepticism of 'supernatural' phenomena and narrow world-view.

Jon certainly has a mysterious past, alluded to several times throughout the series so far but I think in some ways he's also the most straightforward character. Alienated stepson with unknown heritage is slowly led to his destiny by adult mentors like Benjen, Tyrion, Mormont, Aegon and now (possibly) Stannis.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Ok, I'll buy that. However, if a third character says that to him I'm going to be real suspicious

Alienated stepson with unknown heritage is slowly led to his destiny by adult mentors like Benjen, Tyrion, Mormont, Aegon and now (possibly) Stannis.

Though his rise has also been attributed to his above average swordsmenship and courage under fire (no pun intended). Others have had power given to them on a silver platter and have misused and took it for granted. He appears to be handling it well, for the short time he's been in that position.

 

[TK-421]

Not to nit-pick (but I will), not sure if Stannis would qualify as a possible "mentor" to Jon. Isn't a mentor supposed to want to teach someone something or to pass on their experience and advice. I don't see Stannis wanting to teach anything to anyone.
Anything Jon learns from Stannis is through observation more than anything.