A children's fantasy picture book [images]

[LukeW]

G'day.

I've been plugging away on an idea for a kid's book now for a bit over a year. Recently I've hit holiday time and have been able to spend a bit of extra time on it, so that I am now in the position of having the first couple of pages prepped and (hopefully) complete.

I know it's pretty unusual to post anything other than pure literature here, but I thought I would throw these drafts up and get some feedback on them. In particular I'm seeking advice or suggestions on the page layout. I need to get that right now because it will become the template for the rest of the book.

A quick explanation of the images:

Image one is the left hand page, all text is handled here as well as close ups of the dwarves as they arrive to the site. The border is there because I plan to write some short stories along the white sections detailing the events of that year, and hopefully I will be smart enough to work in a secret code that readers can have a try at cracking.

Image two is the right hand page. This is pure imagery, no text will be incorporated on these pages. This is meant to show the progress of the site year by year. It's quite sparse at the moment, though the scenes rapidly become very hectic. There's a little bit of a Where's Wally (Waldo) inspiration at play here, but you don't really see it on the first page.

I have to ask viewers to try and imagine the images side by side, if it's possible. I know it looks strange that the second image doesn't have a border, but the later pages have so much going on in them that I can't really afford to waste any page space on them. Is this forgivable?

Also, I'm sorry about the image quality. I shrank it down as far as I could without losing too much detail (you can't see the hunter in page two now), while being aware that people don't want to spend ages waiting for things to download.

I would have added them as attachments but the maximum filesize is too small for this. If you're having trouble viewing the whole image in your web browser I do suggest holding down CTRL and scrolling the mouse wheel as this should zoom in and out for you.

Cheers

Luke

 

[Toby Frost]

I can't really comment much except to say that the pictures look terrific. I particularly like the woodcutter. I should say that I've heard some publishers like to partner writers and artists themselves (one experienced, one newer), but I'm sure others are better placed to comment. Childrens' books seem to be a bit of a world of their own, so to speak.

 

[alchemist]

The whole thing reminds me of the game Lemmings, esp. the miner digging in.
The art work is great, but you've left very little room for writing the story. The language you're using suggests it's aimed at, perhaps, 8 year olds, whose parents would want more writing and less pictures.
And if that's what lady dwarves look like, let's have more of them.

 

[Perpetual Man]

I have to admit, when I saw the pictures I was a little taken by surprise - it's the first time I can remember seeing this kind of thing posted.

As has been said it's hard to comment on children's books, they are very much there own thing, but I like the ideas as you have presented them, and thought the art was terrific. If I was writing a children's book, it's the kind of art I'd love to have!

 

[Gamblor]

I like the styling you have there - would of course like to see more!

Having attempted a few scripts for comics myself I really enjoy seeing other attempts (not saying yours is a comic, but you, art and all that).

I myself am crap at art but I appareciate what you are going for here. Nice job!

 

[LukeW]

Thanks for the positive words. I decided to run with the current page layout (on account of there not being any suggestions to do it differently).

I should say that I've heard some publishers like to partner writers and artists themselves (one experienced, one newer), but I'm sure others are better placed to comment.

From what I understand there are two ways of writing a children's book. One is, as you say, to write a story, approach a publisher and have them pair you up. Doing it in this manner means it's extremely tough to get into the business as most publishers aren't interested in picking up new talent. The other way to do it is to take on both roles yourself (as I plan to do), approach a publisher with a draft or dummy version (such as what I've posted), and go from there.

It's worth noting that the publishers that I've looked into are not accepting submissions from children's story writers, but are taking them from illustrators, which at least provides an opening for people who do their own artwork.

but you've left very little room for writing the story. The language you're using suggests it's aimed at, perhaps, 8 year olds, whose parents would want more writing and less pictures.

Hey Alchemist. The actual story isn't that long as the real focus is on the imagery. I made a conscious decision not to be wordy. I based this on the fact that kids don't actually read what's in these books if there's a lot of text in them (I don't think anyone ever reads the blurbs in Where's Wally/Waldo). I did mention that the white bands on the border will have text on them which will add to the story, but the real focus is the images.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

If the writer comes in with an artist collaborator, I think Toby is right that the publishers would want to do the matching themselves, but it is different when the author and the illustrator are the same person, and both the text and illustrations are of high quality. I haven't seen enough of the text to pronounce on that, but the artwork strikes me as excellent. (Although you never know exactly what style publishers might prefer. The art could be impressive of its kind, and yet not what they want.)

The big problem, as I see it, is the idea that you can get it in if you submit it as an illustrator to publishers who say they don't want stories right now. That means they are full up with stories, and want artists to illustrate those, before they buy anything new. So I don't think your strategy will work. Best to look for publishers who are open to submissions for books. Although you've had no luck finding them to date -- and these are bad times for writers, publishers, and booksellers generally -- children's and YA fiction are taking up a larger and larger share of what is being published and sold, so I think you should be able to find them eventually. Perhaps you need to widen your search. You're in Australia -- have you tried British and American publishers, too?

I wish you could walk into an American bookstore and see how much shelf space kids' books are getting right now. Or one of our libraries and see how many new books there are in the YA section. But of course you can't do that.

I based this on the fact that kids don't actually read what's in these books if there's a lot of text in them (I don't think anyone ever reads the blurbs in Where's Wally/Waldo)

Do you know this for certain, or is this a guess based on the the kids you know or your own impressions? Have you researched this? I don't say that you are wrong. I know much more about YA novels than I do about picture books. But you need to be sure.

 

[LukeW]

The big problem, as I see it, is the idea that you can get it in if you submit it as an illustrator to publishers who say they don't want stories right now. That means they are full up with stories, and want artists to illustrate those, before they buy anything new. So I don't think your strategy will work.

Hi Teresa. While I've by no means researched far and wide, I did have a look on the Walker Books (which would be my first choice for publishers in an ideal world) website, and it states:

How do I submit a manuscript?Owing to the large volume of manuscripts received , we are currently unable to accept any unsolicited fiction or picture book submissions....
How can I illustrate books for you? Whilst we cannot accept manuscript submissions, we are happy to accept artwork samples and illustrated stories... Illustrated stories: If you have written a story and would like to send in an illustrated manuscript we are happy to receive the typed manuscript or an illustrated dummy.

Walker Books - Walker Books - Your questions

Now, if I'm reading that right, then I should be able to send them my work directly and get at least a look-in. What do you think? Surely it would at least be worth a shot?

Do you know this for certain, or is this a guess based on the the kids you know or your own impressions? Have you researched this? I don't say that you are wrong. I know much more about YA novels than I do about picture books. But you need to be sure.

It's nothing more than an observation I've made from the small amount of children I've taught over the years. Each day in class we have silent reading after lunch, and each day the first books to go out are the Where's Wally/Waldo books (followed closely by other 'eye strainers' such as the Eye Spy books and Where's Stig). I can honestly say that my students have never bothered to read the text that accompanies each picture. I have asked them about it. In terms of wider research, no, I've not done anything like that.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Worth a shot, but if they aren't looking to buy fiction right now it's very much a longshot. Still, I do believe that everyone should start by submitting to top publishers and work their way down if necessary, rather than the other way around. So if you have your heart set on Walker and they will look at it, then why not?

But do be prepared with a list of other likely publishers in the event that Walker turns you down. You should research publishers and research the market. Talk to librarians. Libraries are a significant part of the market for children's fiction, and for hardcover books especially. Network. (If you don't know about this site Absolute Write Water Cooler - Powered by vBulletin you should definitely visit it, look around, meet professionals in the field.)

 

[LukeW]

Worth a shot, but if they aren't looking to buy fiction right now it's very much a longshot. Still, I do believe that everyone should start by submitting to top publishers and work their way down if necessary, rather than the other way around. So if you have your heart set on Walker and they will look at it, then why not?

But do be prepared with a list of other likely publishers in the event that Walker turns you down. You should research publishers and research the market. Talk to librarians. Libraries are a significant part of the market for children's fiction, and for hardcover books especially. Network. (If you don't know about this site Absolute Write Water Cooler - Powered by vBulletin you should definitely visit it, look around, meet professionals in the field.)

Cheers

I plan to do things differently this time and not go off gung ho . I had a quick look at AW and there seems to be a ton of stuff on there. Will give it more time later when I get the chance.

Thanks

 

[LukeW]

For the sake of trying to convey my idea more accurately, here's the third and fourth page:

One question I have. I used the word 'festoon' to describe a group of Sub. sack worms. I used that word as it sounded appropriate, though having researched it, there actually is a word 'festoon' and it means something entriely different. Is it okay to use words like this if they're describing a fictional creature?

Also again, sorry about the quality of the pics. I'm resizing them from about four times larger for forum viewing.

Ta.

 

[Lenny]

Incredible pictures! I'm a real kid at heart - Where's Wally was a staple of mine when growing up (still got them all on my bookcase! Next to them are Where's Bin Laden and Where's Stig ), and I can see the inspiration in the right-hand pages.

As for the words, "festoon" sounds fine to me, and strikes me as a word that kids with any curiosity will look up; I still love finding new words in the books I read now (my favourite recent one is chthonic - dwelling beneath the surface of the earth).

However, I'm not entirely sure about the use of "casualties". Something about it just doesn't seem to fit, but I don't know what I'd suggest to replace it. Too clinical, maybe. Too modern for something set in the classical fantasy era of dwarves and the like.

I'd love to see more. Have you got links to the full-size versions?

 

[HareBrain]

If we can have a charm of goldfinches and a murder of crows, why not a festoon of sackworms? (Though I would worry slightly about kids looking up the word only to get confused.)

I agree with Lenny, I'm not sure about "casualty". It doesn't sound quite right, but I can't think of an alternative.

Otherwise, I really like the look and feel of this. Great work!

 

[The Judge]

If we can have a charm of goldfinches and a murder of crows, why not a festoon of sackworms?

But a "charm" and "murder" fir with the respective images of goldfinsches and crows, whereas festoon -- unless the sackworms drape themselves all over mantlepieces -- doesn't. I, personally, would look for another word which means something -- after all, it is the dwarves not the sackworms themselves, presumably, who are giving them this collective name, so I don't think they'd choose something even vaguely pleasant.

And I'm another one to dislike "casualties" in this context. I also don't like the "There were no..." and "There was one..." Any reason we can't say "No one was hurt" and "The fisherdwarf was killed" (or-- knowing how bloodthirsty chldren can be -- "The fisherdwarf was eaten by the biggest sackworm ...crunch, crunch..." )

I meant to say before how much I love the pictures. I'm a little confused about the way you'll write stories in the white sections of the borders, though. The white bits as shown don't seem nearly big enough to get a story in as such. Or am I mis-reading what you mean?

Anyway, good show -- and good luck with it.

 

[HareBrain]

But a "charm" and "murder" fir with the respective images of goldfinsches and crows

What have you done with The Judge?

, whereas festoon -- unless the sackworms drape themselves all over mantlepieces -- doesn't.

Actually, I think that works -- it conjurs the image of them hanging from the ceilings like Christmas garlands, waiting to drop on their unwary prey (even though that's, er, not what they do). Also, there's the similarity with "infestation".

 

[The Judge]

I washed my fingers today and can't do a thing with them... (Actually, it's very difficult to type when a cat insists on trying to sit on your lap, pushing its head into your face, and obscuring the screen entirely, so you're lucky there were only two mistakes.)

Ooh, a festation of sackworms. Yes, I like that.

 

[LukeW]

I showed some of my friends these images and a couple raised the point that the sackworm on page 3 looks like part of a woman's anatomy and thought it was inappropriate for a kids' book. They also thought it was too scary looking for a book aimed at children. Do people agree with this? Personally, I would have loved stuff like that as a kid but I do need to keep the book sellable too.

I've also taken the hint with 'festoon' (damn I wish that wasn't a real word) and 'casualty'.

And I'm another one to dislike "casualties" in this context. I also don't like the "There were no..." and "There was one..." Any reason we can't say "No one was hurt" and "The fisherdwarf was killed" (or-- knowing how bloodthirsty chldren can be -- "The fisherdwarf was eaten by the biggest sackworm ...crunch, crunch..." )

I'm trying to avoid mentioning who gets killed off as the reader will need to work out who dies in the book in order to solve the riddle at the end.

I'm a little confused about the way you'll write stories in the white sections of the borders, though. The white bits as shown don't seem nearly big enough to get a story in as such. Or am I mis-reading what you mean?

I think you're reading what I mean fine. This is a resized version of the original so it is smaller. At it's real size the white borders equal half a centimetre tall, which is more than enough to fit a clear script into. I won't be doing that by hand so it should be quite neat.

I'd love to see more. Have you got links to the full-size versions?

http://www.lukewebster.net/dwarven tower/page4fullversion.jpg

Here's page 4 at its current size. These are composition shots that came from a much larger image (talking about 20,000 pixels wide). Due to the size of that original image the DPI had to be kept pretty small while I moved things around as it killed the PC. Now that layout is set for each page, when I go to colour them in on a new layer I can bump up the image DPI to print standard.

 

[The Judge]

I showed some of my friends these images and a couple raised the point that the sackworm on page 3 looks like part of a woman's anatomy

With serrated teeth-things all round it??? Either they know some seriously strange women or I lead a very sheltered life... Perhaps give the sackworm three tongues, or two tongues which have forked tails or something, and that might just remove any other perceived similarity.

They also thought it was too scary looking for a book aimed at children.

I wouldn't have thought so, but have a look around at what is being published now and see what kinds of gruesome images abound for the appropriate age group.

I'm trying to avoid mentioning who gets killed off as the reader will need to work out who dies in the book in order to solve the riddle at the end.

No problem -- just say "One dwarf was killed/eaten/scrunched/crushed into smithereens".

 

[HareBrain]

I showed some of my friends these images and a couple raised the point that the sackworm on page 3 looks like part of a woman's anatomy and thought it was inappropriate for a kids' book.

Since I doubt many kids would have had a disastrous sexual experience whilst having a bad acid trip (as I imagine your friends must have) I think you're safe. It reminded me (old and possibly faulty memories) of the Fendahl from the Tom Baker Doctor Who adventure, but that's a good thing.

 

[LukeW]

No problem -- just say "One dwarf was killed/eaten/scrunched/crushed into smithereens".

I like it, but should I be avoiding the passive tense here?

It reminded me (old and possibly faulty memories) of the Fendahl from the Tom Baker Doctor Who adventure, but that's a good thing.

I had to Google that.