Science & Religion (The Vatican's Interest)

[crys]

Confusing Science with Technology, yes that was rather stupid of me.

My point wasn't to ''blame'' Science, I just feel that the usefulness of Science is overestimated in comparison to those other disciplines I mentioned.

 

[Tinsel]

I read that science was used to disprove magic. It provided more concrete explanations, and it lessened the relevance of God(s).

The population growth in high(er) in undeveloped countries, so how does that help the conversation?

It appears that in the past, there was much more divide among what people accepted however religion in accord with monotheism, had encompassed those belief systems?

 

[crys]

The Church isn't alone in its supposed possession of the Truth. Thousands of scientists were persecuted by the Communist Soviets. For example, Alexander Chizevsky spent 8 years in a Stalin gulag because he refused to retract his solar writings that suggested the revolution wasn't entirely due to the struggle of the working class.

Apologies if this is old hat, but Chizevsky was the first to recognise the link between the 11 year solar cycles, Earth's climate, and the mass movement of people. The link between geomagnetic storms and wars/revolutions is interesting given the current sunspot maxima and the situation in North Africa.

 

[Dave]

Interesting, I've never heard of regression analysis between sunspots and revolutions before. But the next maximum isn't predicted to peak until 2013, are things in the Middle East going to get worse yet? And the last was in 2000. I don't recall any revolutions then. The Berlin Wall came down in 1989, of course, which was the one before that. I was going to say this is well off-topic, but I guess having ones fate predetermined by some mysterious other-worldly force is a part of any philosophical discussion of religion.

 

[J Riff]

I read a theory once that stated that geomagnetic (?) energy was causing people to hallucinate and imagine Alien visitations. This happened in Manhatten I think, dozens of people reported similar 'dreams' and it was lined up with a huge release of energy from inside the earth's core.
I don't know the science... what exactly is 'geomagnetic' energy and what effect could it have on a human brain?

 

[Tinsel]

Sounds a bit like "The Call of Cthulhu" story here (ref: to the last couple of replies). Rest easy?

As far as an external forces theory taking effect on how religion is presented, that may always exist in the background, but possibly the focus should remain with elevating ritual practices by representative acts.

Is a proper Church than able to make specific associations? in addition to. Thus where does the divide meet between secular study and Christian practices, for an individual answer(s).

 

[TacticalLoco]

Good post, Dave.

I'm always baffled by the statement "Science doesn't have all the answers". So what?

How does this compare with the number of answers that religion has provided? I'm prepared to be convinced but I'm still trying to think of one.

This has been refered to as the 'God of the Gaps', particularly in eveolution discussions, but it also appiles here.

 

[Heck Tate]

Religion has provided an answer for everything, but they're usually wrong answers. I'm reading Mieville's Kraken right now and I think the various cults of whatever god are hilarious. Much like real religions, they all have some story that makes sense of everything as long as you don't question any of it. For some reason, the answer "I don't know" is worse than any other. Hence the God of the Gaps fills these spaces with any answer. One of the reasons I read sci-fi is because I love the idea that there are some things we don't know, but we can speculate answers without taking them seriously.

 

[chrispenycate]

Religious answers were proved wrong by rigourous scientific experimentation, based on the nature of matter and observed phenomena. Scientific explanations were proved wrong by the application of argument based on the nature of divinity. Scientific theories can change, turn inside out three times in a generation; scientific method insures this. Religious explanations are considerably more stable, changing very slowly. Many people prefer the certainty of the long-lasting paradigms to the relative instability of the hypothesis/antithesis mechanism.

You (and me, for that matter) have been brainwashed as much by the "if experimentation can not be devised to test its confluence with real conditions, the theorem is weak" method as mediaeval peasants by the mystery of the trinity in unity, of the transubstantiation of the host. Obviously your universe seems more reasonable to me than theirs; but it is as dependent on the basic acceptance of certain Truths, with capital "T", as theirs is.

 

[J-WO]

One has to stand somewhere, though. Otherwise its a journey down Solipsist Avenue or somewhere similarly hazy.

 

[Tinsel]

If religion took the position that the less obvious answers are to be handled by God, than they would not have to provide any scientific explanations. Now if they have a large telescope at the Vatican, I'm not sure if they do or not, but if they do, than they must be searching for UFO's.

Tell the Scientists to mind their own business.

 

[chrispenycate]

The scientists (I don't know any capitalised) do stick to their own business. It just so happens that that business, which is "finding logical explanations for the universe, everything it contains, and all actions taking part in it" occasionally collides with the philosophers and theologians seeking their own explanations for the same phenomena.

And no, the scientists are not always polite about it, and make no bones of the fact they consider their method as the only acceptable one; but there again, so do their opponents. And it is extremely rare for a follower of the scientific method to resort to physical violence to prove their point.

Much less so, unfortunately, for the "don't try and pull evidence on me; I know what I believe" crew.

 

[Starbeast]

So now the Vatican believes in life elsewhere. Then why did they want an observatory built a couple of decades ago? What were they looking for? And before they agreed upon life elsewhere, how would they perceive a flying saucer landing near the Vatican? Would they think the outworlders were demons? What made them change their minds about life elsewhere?

If religion took the position that the less obvious answers are to be handled by God, than they would not have to provide any scientific explanations. Now if they have a large telescope at the Vatican, I'm not sure if they do or not, but if they do, than they must be searching for UFO's.

Tell the Scientists to mind their own business.

Director of the Vatican Observatory: George Coyne interviewed​

 

[Heck Tate]

Tell the Scientists to mind their own business.

Everything is science's business. If you want to believe that there's some magical man in the sky who makes everything work the way it does, then fine. But you better not try to stand in the way of science's quest to answer the things that you've always just written off. I mean real science, none of this "We know god exists somewhere so we will conduct a series of tests to prove this." I'm ok with the Vatican conducting scientific experiments as long as they're not tainting their results. Unfortunately, given their track record, I'm not at all confident in their honesty. There are plenty of religious scientists, but they work under the direction of usually secular entities (not that these are always more honest or moral than religion but that's another matter). I'm skeptical of the Vatican having their own scientists, but everyone should have the chance to expand our knowledge of the universe. Let's just hope (pray for you religious types) that they can use this properly.

 

[Tillane]

If religion took the position that the less obvious answers are to be handled by God, than they would not have to provide any scientific explanations.

This would be okay if religion (any religion) actually had any of the obvious answers. They don't. They have a bunch of ideas that make precisely zero sense.

Sorry if that offends anyone, but feel free to prove me wrong...

 

[Interference]

Why are we all getting so hung up on the past?

The Vatican is opening a website. It is trying to prove it is ready to acknowledge new evidence about the Universe. Good, if true. To be persuaded to consider something new isn't actually a bad thing, even if you are a church.

Personally, I would be happy to believe religion has all the answers, but it clearly doesn't. It doesn't even completely understand the answers that it does have. What is important for everyone is that it learns and improves its theories.

Please read that sentence again and substitute the word "religion" with the word "science"

 

[Heck Tate]

I just feel like the whole thing is a trap. Like when a cartoon bad guy convinces the good guy that he's changed only to stab him in the back later. We'll just have to wait and see though. Anyone taking bets?

 

[Interference]

That doesn't just happen in cartoons, Heck.

 

[Tinsel]

People want to work away in the sciences, so this is supported by an industry that sustains itself. The Vatican has a research branch, so it is set up to independently study whatever they decide to spend their time on. It sounds like they don't want to be constrained.

Now they have to throw off the chains of academia since they are plowing ahead. I wouldn't be surprised if another Galileo came out of the church. They should distance themselves as far as possible because if anything that would indicate that there is progress. If they can stand on their own.

Anyway, I myself simply read The Book and I'm not concerned about Science.

 

[J-WO]

Why are we all getting so hung up on the past?

Well, there present isn't exactly reasonable and open minded either. Vati-science says (well, mumbles to people in African countries when the wider world isn't looking) that condoms have holes in them big enough to let the AIDS virus through, so, hey, you may as well keep procreating more believers, eh?

Its an interesting theory. Presumably, if AIDS can permeate latex then it must be a breeze for air molecules to do likewise. I'd like to see one of these Priests ministering in Kenya roll a condom over his head and sit there for an hour, or even five minutes.

We don't need this organisation mucking with the stars.