The Chrons Writing Circle - Thoughts?

[Perpetual Man]

Is it worth setting up a thread, a writing circle if you will for all of us writers on the Chronicles?

To start with I'm not suggesting anything in depth, just a thread where someone could post that they have a piece of writing they want another member to look at, or that kind of thing.

Perhaps more importantly being able to offer advice in certain areas - for instance in areas of profession.

A particular writer may want to know certain things, another member might be in position to offer that information.

All this comes to mind that I have been offered help and encouragement by quite a few Chronicles members, two especially so (Take a step forward Mouse and Doz); and once I was able to offer advice based on my profession, while someone else said had they known they would have asked me questions...

So that's the vague idea of what.

What does anyone else think?

 

[The Judge]

Isn't AW itself a kind of writing circle? After all, if we have problems with a particular issue we can simply start a thread in GWD asking for advice -- I recall Boneman wanted help about iron at one point, and I asked about injuries someone might suffer after falling against a building (long story...)

Elizabeth Bent did start a thread in Writing Resources where people could list their specialities http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/528283-need-a-scientist.html I don't know if it's proved useful to anyone. One problem with it is that people come and go -- so member X might appear to be just the person you want, but in fact hasn't in fact been around for months and doesn't respond to PMs. And whether anyone would bother reading through the thread from beginning to end to try to find the specialism required is perhaps another matter.

My advice if a person does have a query about something, and research isn't providing the answers, is to ask here in a separate thread. Another advantage of doing that is it also helps the rest of us who can read the posts and perhaps ask follow up questions.

As for members wanting to have someone read their work, for myself I'm not over-happy with the thought of a bulletin board of that kind. Firstly, I fear it will prove immediately attractive to newcomers who have no interest in participating in the communal life of Chrons and who just want free line editing for their masterpiece, for which they will provide the full title, website and blog by way of self-promotion (and believe me, I have seen quite enough of them...). Secondly, it's important to have the right person read your work. With all due respect to everyone here, while every critiquing opinion has some value it has to be admitted that not everyone is equal in being able to judge and pronounce on a piece of work which is still in draft form in order to be able to help the author produce something better. The less experienced the author, the more important it is for the work to be assessed by someone who knows what he/she is talking about.

Rather than have a "Please will someone -- anyone -- read my 150,000 words?" thread I think it's better for an individual to assess the capabilities and attitudes of other members (which can be seen clearly in the responses in the Critiques section) and then approach possible critiquers on a personal basis and ask for help. After, of course, putting up some sections of the work in Critiques in the first place. I appreciate that means that some people might be faced with the job of tactfully declining to help another writer, but that seems preferable to the poor author having to decline someone else's offer of help...


I'm not sure what else a Writing Circle could provide that AW doesn't at present, but if anyone has any other ideas, let's hear them.

 

[HareBrain]

At the risk of repeating what TJ has said (but I'll do it anyway), pretty much everyone who posts regularly in AW is, surprise of surprises, an AW, so I'm not sure which subset this would be for. I've posted quite a few threads here asking for specific factual information (i.e. not on aspects of writing), and people have been very helpful answering them. If you have professional knowhow you'd like to make available to other writers, then (assuming "biscuit barrel master" isn't actually your job title ) you could include it in your user profile? I would in mine, if I thought anyone might be interested in Statements of Standard Accounting Practice of the early nineties.

Critiquing a whole novel is a massive task, if it's approached with anything like a professional attitude, and probably something to be considered only between those who have already built up a strong relationship here (or elsewhere), rather than taken on through a "help wanted" post, IMO.

 

[Anne Martin]

I think that there will also be inevitable trade-offs. I've noticed that some people here post a full edit, while others will post a more general critique. While both are valuable, you might not see people willing to do a full edit of 150,000 words for free. I think what you should consider is trading readings/critiques, i.e. you critique mine, and I'll critique yours. Of course, you have to trust them to do as much as you want them to, and you must be sure to do the same for them. (My past experience of amateur author-editors has not been a good one. I've had three that all had standards lower than my own.)

 

[Mouse]

You are more than welcome, Perp.

And Perp has an awesome profession by the way!

 

[Perpetual Man]

Thankee kindly...

Not sure that everyone would see it as awesome, mind you.

 

[Grimbear]

I think it might be more helpful to have a list of people who would be willing to be sent work (maybe of a pre-agreed length) by email or something.
It could be updated regularly by those invi=olved and anyone not pulling their weight kicked out (sounds harsh I know but fair I think).

It is kind of a downer when you see people reaping the benefits of extensive reviews and not repaying the favor. (not this forum though! most people here are givers!)

Personally, I put a lot of time and effort into writing critiques.
check if you like.

I am willing to offer what help I can.

Grim

 

[Anne Martin]

Elsewhere, I used to give extensive critiques - never less than 500 words - and received less than fifty in return. I admit to tiring of it. Now, I try to distill my comments to a few targeted general remarks, though usually still more than 100 words. I would, however, rather critique than edit here, especially since there are others here who happily edit. I'm too tempted to rewrite for people.

I do like to discuss, rather than just have people fire errors/comments at me. I think that is what the beauty of the forum format is.

In that respect, Perp, are you looking for a sense reader or an editor? Maybe the list (if one is created) can reflect who is willing to serve which function.

 

[The Judge]

And the help you've been giving has been very good, Grim.

I fully agree with how much time and effort goes into a proper critique, which is why we don't all critique every single piece which is put on the Critiques forum -- we couldn't possibly, even if we wanted to, and still get all our own writing done, let alone deal with those other inconsequentials such as work, family, household chores... So I don't know if many people are going to want to let themselves in for critiquing anything and everything which is sent to them, whether of a pre-agreed length or not. To be frank, I certainly wouldn't sign up to that. But, needless to say, if someone wants to "advertise" him/herself as a reader, that's up to the individual concerned.

When you say "kicked out" I take it you mean out of a quid-pro-quo club? We can hardly kick someone out of Chrons, of course. (Not for that, anyway.) So that means drawing up rules and enforcing them, and someone getting updates, and sorting out squabbles, and deciding whether, frankly, someone is fit to give critiques of the level needed and... and I can tell you for now the moderators aren't going to touch it with a bargepole.

You're certainly right about the downer. One of the reasons for the 30 post rule in Critiques is that we used to get fly-by-nights who came in, got several critiques, and then promptly left without giving anything back. Critiques -- indeed the whole of AW -- is dependent on reciprocity. As I've said elsewhere, we're friends here, and friends help each other. Long may that continue.

 

[Grimbear]

When you say "kicked out" I take it you mean out of a quid-pro-quo club? We can hardly kick someone out of Chrons, of course. (Not for that, anyway.)

Yep - that's what I meant

and I can tell you for now the moderators aren't going to touch it with a bargepole.

don't blame you one bit.

The people advertising themselves as readers thing - that's kind of how it would work. But it would work better as one-offs. People pairing up to review and critique two specific things they've both written for example.
It's all about repricocity (sp) ? you know what I mean I hope.

Maybe a person could set up a thread. "Seeking review partner for review of longer piece" for example. Discussion could take place on that thread but the writing itself would not be posted?

But they could do that now without a group. I think what Judge said first was the best, about approaching someone you know has a good track record in reviewing and asking them v nicely if they will help.

I don't know...am lost

Grim

 

[Ian Whates]

Just to mention that if anyone wants to get regular, constructive criticism of their work (and offer the same for the work of others), there are structured online critiquing groups organised for precisely this, set up by the the BSFA (British Science Fiction Association): the Orbiters.

Last I heard there were 8 Orbiter groups, each with around half a dozen members. Some are specifically for short stories, others for novels.

 

[Culhwch]

Out of curiosity, Ian, are these groups restricted to you Britishers?

 

[Perpetual Man]

Some good points have been raised, (and most of them I expected).

Anne - I was thinking along the lines of more a casual read through of work, saying more about whether the story works. (Oooh I enjoyed it but it's a bit disjointed in places - Wow there were some of the best descriptive bits I've ever read, but the story just did not work). Editing is far too intensive and finding time (and being good enough) is too intensive.

I was just putting this out there as an idea, just to see how it went - mainly for stories just a little longer than critiques allows.

It is only the germ of an idea and would have to be worked out in detail if we want to go ahead.

 

[The Judge]

Elsewhere, I used to give extensive critiques - never less than 500 words - and received less than fifty in return.

Extensive? Anne, you're an amateur...

Picking three pieces at random, I see I landed one poor member of my writing group with critiques ranging from 3,225 words to 4,600 -- and I was never looking at more than 3 chapters at a time...


I think part of the verbosity is that I also like to discuss and explain why I think something could be improved. And I'm a nit picker. And I talk a lot...

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

But I think Anne was writing these 500 word critiques for a larger pool of stories. (And receiving replies that were only a tenth as long must have been frustrating.)

In smaller, more private writing groups, as we know, one gets to torture one's friends with much longer critiques.

 

[Ian Whates]

Out of curiosity, Ian, are these groups restricted to you Britishers?

Not specifically to Brits, Cul, although you do have to be a member of the BSFA, which means shelling out an annual membership (£29.00 for UK, £40.00 for overseas). The Orbiter groups aren't the only thing members receive in return, obviously.

 

[Anne Martin]

Extensive? Anne, you're an amateur...

Picking three pieces at random, I see I landed one poor member of my writing group with critiques ranging from 3,225 words to 4,600 -- and I was never looking at more than 3 chapters at a time...


I think part of the verbosity is that I also like to discuss and explain why I think something could be improved. And I'm a nit picker. And I talk a lot...

I was critiquing short stories, rarely more than 1500 words, so my critique was sometimes a third of the length of the story, sometimes longer than the story itself. Occasionally, I rewrote passages to illustrate my meaning. I mentioned a few grammatical things and spelling if nobody else had previously brought it up. Mine were more sense and style readings, not edits.

On that site chapters were posted separately. The authors would receive 500+ words from me per chapter. If they specifically asked me for a review (via PM or email) they got more.

 

[chrispenycate]

Most of you know what I do; punctuation, grammar, homophones and scientific verisimilitude. The simple bits; I won't touch style in case I end up rewriting things. And nobody would want to absorb my style.

I have, however, done my speciality on more extended works for a couple of other Chronicles residents; but we were already friends. I wouldn't like to feel obliged to do someone's novel because I was a member of something, nor think that someone was looking at something of mine out of a sense of duty.

 

[Hex]

Has anyone tried the Critters writers workshop? Is it good/ bad/ indifferent?

I'd really like to get involved in an online sff writer group thing. I've been very lucky with people taking the time to comment on my stuff in critiques, but of course we can't post whole short stories here without - effectively - publishing them.

 

[Hex]

To answer my own question: http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/526836-critters-writers-workshop.html