The Chrons Writing Circle - Thoughts?

[Dozmonic]

Critiquing is an odd thing. With yours, for example, the 25k words flew by because it was well written. The quality of writing was not an issue in the slightest. What you had was done well and it worked, it was just something that in order to get published, the agent who read it thought it should be made to work better. Knowing you could write and knowing you were aware of what needed a look at meant I was able to focus on that and offer a few words of guidance in amongst the waffle

But I wouldn't want to try and offer that to everyone, because a lot of problems stem from multiple areas. Sometimes what is required is someone goes away and rewrites their chapter ten times over, then learn that their story isn't working and why. Along the way they'll improve the quality of what they do and learn a lesson from it. It's only when they've done that that a nudge in the right direction is helpful. I think that if critiquing of larger pieces was too readily available then people would be tempted to jump the gun and want to be ready before they are. Sometimes there just aren't any shortcuts and they have to accept that yes, it will take writing several full length novel's worth of words before their writing is good enough.

If anybody does have 25k they want critiquing from a structural viewpoint and their quality of writing is good, then I'd be happy to help

 

[anhalo]

Picking up on a few peoples thoughts, maybe we could all put the things we can provide others with information about in our profiles (those of us who are willing).

If anyone needs help with political and economic systems I am willing to help. Or if they need some advice on web/graphic design and marketing.

Also, sometimes people post shorter crits not to be bad, but because they feel that what they have to say on a piece may not be useful. We shouldn't be hasty in judging people by the length of their crits. I personally hope to post longer crits for people once I've gained more experience in the field.

Also, if people are worried about being asked personally to undertake longer crits for people for free, perhaps there could be some sort of area in the forum where people can offer their services for a fee for longer pieces of work? Maybe like the trade areas in some other forums? If I was going to ask someone to edit a large piece of work for me, like a full manuscript, I think it would only be fair to pay them for their work.

 

[Perpetual Man]

When I first posted this thread I thought I'd sit back and see what happened, it was more a judge reaction than something that I thought would be a great idea. Probably just had a little devil on my shoulder that day who wanted to shake the nest and see what he stirred up.

I fully expected (and agree) with quite a lot of the comments made, especially by the moderators, and the very slow part of my mind cottoned on that requesting help could be done simply by posting a request in the writing sections, I guess in their own way a writing circle on a bigger scale.

Critiquing a whole novel is a massive task, if it's approached with anything like a professional attitude, and probably something to be considered only between those who have already built up a strong relationship here (or elsewhere), rather than taken on through a "help wanted" post, IMO.

HB - Agree about the critiquing of a whole novel and I don't think I was considering that when I opened the thread, although in hindsight it certainly seems that way. I agree about the help wanted, it got me help when I needed it.

I think it might be more helpful to have a list of people who would be willing to be sent work (maybe of a pre-agreed length) by email or something.
It could be updated regularly by those invi=olved and anyone not pulling their weight kicked out (sounds harsh I know but fair I think).

It is kind of a downer when you see people reaping the benefits of extensive reviews and not repaying the favor. (not this forum though! most people here are givers!)

Personally, I put a lot of time and effort into writing critiques.
check if you like.

I am willing to offer what help I can.

Grim

GB - this is probably closer to what I had in mind. But... see end of post.

In smaller, more private writing groups, as we know, one gets to torture one's friends with much longer critiques.

That is so mean. But I like it.

Most of you know what I do; punctuation, grammar, homophones and scientific verisimilitude. The simple bits; I won't touch style in case I end up rewriting things. And nobody would want to absorb my style.

I have, however, done my speciality on more extended works for a couple of other Chronicles residents; but we were already friends. I wouldn't like to feel obliged to do someone's novel because I was a member of something, nor think that someone was looking at something of mine out of a sense of duty.

And you do it well, very well in fact.

Has anyone tried the Critters writers workshop? Is it good/ bad/ indifferent?

I'd really like to get involved in an online sff writer group thing. I've been very lucky with people taking the time to comment on my stuff in critiques, but of course we can't post whole short stories here without - effectively - publishing them.

See end of post.

Critiquing is an odd thing. With yours, for example, the 25k words flew by because it was well written. The quality of writing was not an issue in the slightest. What you had was done well and it worked, it was just something that in order to get published, the agent who read it thought it should be made to work better. Knowing you could write and knowing you were aware of what needed a look at meant I was able to focus on that and offer a few words of guidance in amongst the waffle

But I wouldn't want to try and offer that to everyone, because a lot of problems stem from multiple areas. Sometimes what is required is someone goes away and rewrites their chapter ten times over, then learn that their story isn't working and why. Along the way they'll improve the quality of what they do and learn a lesson from it. It's only when they've done that that a nudge in the right direction is helpful. I think that if critiquing of larger pieces was too readily available then people would be tempted to jump the gun and want to be ready before they are. Sometimes there just aren't any shortcuts and they have to accept that yes, it will take writing several full length novel's worth of words before their writing is good enough.

If anybody does have 25k they want critiquing from a structural viewpoint and their quality of writing is good, then I'd be happy to help

And I cannot emphasise how much I appreciate what you did, not only did it give me a valuable outside opinion on what I had done, your word were enough to get me fired up writing again, which is something that is just without measure.

I've not responded to Mouse's comment here as I had already done so, but she is the other one who deserves a big thank you for that. (and on a smaller scale everyone who takes part/oversees the writing challenges, because if I had not started to do them it would not have set the ball rolling and I digress...)

Picking up on a few peoples thoughts, maybe we could all put the things we can provide others with information about in our profiles (those of us who are willing).

If I was going to ask someone to edit a large piece of work for me, like a full manuscript, I think it would only be fair to pay them for their work.

I think once we slip into the area of paying others for work it changes the whole nature of things, even if it was a voluntary unasked for payment.

I like the idea of using the profiles for holding information, but it still means you have to go looking through countless profiles to find them.

As this is turning into an epic post I think I'm going to...

 

[Perpetual Man]

...double post.

After a week or so of thinking about this and mulling it over, what I was/am thinking of now is something a little more simple, still just throwing an idea out there:

When it comes to offering criticism/editing whatever on others works I was not really thinking to the degree of sitting down and offering a full read through with loads of comments, annotations etc; more a sounding board kind of thing.

Is this idea any good? Should I go with it? I've got a great opening but think I'm getting a bit lost...

If anyone did want a short story (or bigger checked) then it would be in the form of a request and if no one answers or has the time or just does not feel up to it fair enough.

One of my fears with criticising others work (the reason you don't see me doing it much) is I just don't feel up to it. When you see the brilliance of some of the critiques I just feel, I would not know where to begin. I feel a lot more comfortable just reading through and giving general comments and whether I feel it works.

The idea of having somewhere a single common place where people can list things they are qualified to talk about - profession, specific interests etc is one I still like. Rather than trawling through profiles or asking every time, being able to think I need to know something about that, opening a thread and seeing: Oh yes, Perpetual Man is a Funeral Director just what I wanted would be very helpful.

Setting one another challenges, no winner or element of competition, just for the fun of it.

But as I say, this is all just throwing ideas out there, and hoping not to get stung.

 

[Oxman]

There have been some really interesting ideas floating about in this thread. Very good, Perp!

The idea of a writer's circle really appeals to me, but it's not something I would really see working in a public arena, such as this. Better, I think, to pair off or form small sub groups with people you know and respect on here and privately pass around each other's work between yourselves. This way, you're only investing your time helping one or two people's work to become the best it can be, rather than stretching yourself and offering tiny snippets to a lot of different people. It also seems as though this is a good way to keep enough time to concentrate on your own stuff.

Saying that, I think Critiques is still an excellent place to throw out an idea to see if people generally like it or if you are heading in the right direction. Sometimes a lack of responses can be frustrating, but that's the nature of the beast. Sometimes critiques is rife with contributions, other times it's just the lurkers (being a very good lurker myself, I know all about this).

I only throw out the occasional critique, when I think I can contribute constructively. If someone asks "does this work" then I think a simple yes or no answers that question, but often, the detailed crits have been there before me and I don't feel as though I can add anything that hasn't already been said - better than I could put it.

I think I'd rather see a thread entitled (for example) "Need info on Embalming" than having a list of members with skill sets. For one reason, there is a turnover of members, you might send a pm to one that sits in the ether while you wait. A new thread will at least generate a visible response. Also - and I am the epitome of this - there can be a tendancy to be here sometimes and not available at others. Due to my own circunmstances, there are occasions where I just could not be bothered to answer a PM about my own areas of "expertise", whereas, if I'm feeling bright eyed and bushy tailed, and see a thread I can assist with - I'd be happy to post in it.

Just my thoughts on some of the issues here...

 

[HareBrain]

One of my fears with criticising others work (the reason you don't see me doing it much) is I just don't feel up to it. When you see the brilliance of some of the critiques I just feel, I would not know where to begin. I feel a lot more comfortable just reading through and giving general comments and whether I feel it works.

But there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing that on a critiques thread. It's immeasurably more use to the writer than saying nothing. And you've had plenty of practice commenting on others' 75- and 300-word stories; it's time to graduate to the hard stuff!

 

[The Judge]

... more a sounding board kind of thing.

Is this idea any good? Should I go with it? I've got a great opening but think I'm getting a bit lost...

Which is what already happens in GWD, of course, where people can start threads asking exactly those questions. Granted the whole of the opening can't be set out, but basic details can, and if the person asking wants more help, there's nothing to stop him/her making a note of that in the thread and/or contacting those who have responded.

If anyone did want a short story (or bigger checked) then it would be in the form of a request and if no one answers or has the time or just does not feel up to it fair enough.

If someone wanted help in this way, then my advice would be to put a sample of the work in Critiques, get some responses and then ask in that thread if anyone would be willing to look at more of it. The advantages of that are: (a) it isn't the newbie magnet which a bulletin board would be (or at least, they have to go through the filter of 30 posts first); and (b) potential helpers can see the standard of the work on offer and assess whether they want to volunteer. As Dozmonic says, offering that kind of critiquing assistance to just anyone isn't an option for most of us.

One of my fears with criticising others work (the reason you don't see me doing it much) is I just don't feel up to it. When you see the brilliance of some of the critiques I just feel, I would not know where to begin. I feel a lot more comfortable just reading through and giving general comments and whether I feel it works.

But that is a critique! And if you can do it for a long piece, and for 75 words pieces, you can surely do it for an extract of 1,500 words. Personally, I'm a lot more comfortable dealing with nit-picky things eg like word choice. Both are valid ways into critiquing and they offer different perspectives and different help. And if you want to assist people to improve -- and incidentally improve your own work -- you have to learn to critique on a micro level as well as the macro (or, as in my case, the other way round).

The idea of having somewhere a single common place where people can list things they are qualified to talk about - profession, specific interests etc is one I still like.

As I said, Elizabeth started such a place -- a thread in GWD. If you don't want to add to that, start another -- and we'll see if people can manage to refrain from cluttering it up with questions this time...

Setting one another challenges, no winner or element of competition, just for the fun of it.

Which is what Workshop is for -- and which is remarkably quiet most of the time. Anyone can start an exercise there; anyone can contribute.


I don't mean to pour cold water on the idea, but I really can't see what simply designating an area "Writing Circle" will achieve, or what it could do that Aspiring Writers as a whole doesn't or can't.


Oxman has sneaked in while I've been writing this -- and his thoughts pretty much sum up what I've tried to say.

And I see HareBrain has also snuck in. I must learn to type faster...

 

[Perpetual Man]

But there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing that on a critiques thread. It's immeasurably more use to the writer than saying nothing. And you've had plenty of practice commenting on others' 75- and 300-word stories; it's time to graduate to the hard stuff!

You know I never really thought of my little comments as critiques, but I guess they are. Of course one of the rules I set for myself is to try and be positive throughout, on the bigger critiques it might not always be possible. Hmmm

(All this reminds me I might be falling behind a bit, on this months comm..errr critiques)

 

[Mouse]

If someone wanted help in this way, then my advice would be to put a sample of the work in Critiques, get some responses and then ask in that thread if anyone would be willing to look at more of it.

Which is what I did in my Frog Prince story. I couldn't post it all because it was a short story and I wanted (still want!) to get it published, so I asked at the end if anyone would be willing to look at all of it for me.

Boneman offered, and we've since looked at bits and pieces for each other. From this, J Riff also ended up looking at my zombie story for me and I looked at a few of his.

Perp kindly helped me with embalming.

I've helped a couple other guys in private emails, but I just like helping people anyway. Good to build up the karma points. Now hurry up and pay me back, Universe!

 

[Hex]

Oops. I thought the Scientist thread had been designated as the place to post questions. Sorry. Not that anyone seems to be an expert on the octopus anyway.

Um at the risk of sounding all girly and pathetic - it takes a certain amount of courage (a) to post on Critiques, but especially (b) to - having posted - ask for volunteers to critique the rest of a story. I (probably) can't be the only person thinking "what if no one offers...?" (does that mean they don't like it or they're busy or I didn't ask in the right way..?).

I don't think I have a solution to this, except maybe to grit my teeth and stop being a wuss :s

 

[Chaoticheart]

Oops. I thought the Scientist thread had been designated as the place to post questions. Sorry. Not that anyone seems to be an expert on the octopus anyway.

Um at the risk of sounding all girly and pathetic - it takes a certain amount of courage (a) to post on Critiques, but especially (b) to - having posted - ask for volunteers to critique the rest of a story. I (probably) can't be the only person thinking "what if no one offers...?" (does that mean they don't like it or they're busy or I didn't ask in the right way..?).

I don't think I have a solution to this, except maybe to grit my teeth and stop being a wuss :s

Just ask yourself: What would Jesus do? And then the answer shall become clear. DANCE!

For the record, I felt this post to be absolutely necessary.

edit: also I highly recommend you listen to "I will survive" whilst watching them dance

 

[Hex]

For the record, I felt this post to be absolutely necessary.

It's hard to disagree. I like the little ones in the middle with blobby hands.

 

[Brev]

One question? (And forgive me if the answer is elsewhere, hidden in plain sight.)

I've been submitting some short pieces to a few magazines and mostly in their 'bumph' they ask for first rights, and expect you to mention if a submission has appeared elsewhere ... would not 'critiques' count as previous?

If that's the case, then the idea of a closed group, sharing stuff for mutual benefit is a good one..

 

[The Judge]

Hex -- sorry, my comment wasn't meant as a dig at you! And I do know that it takes a bit of courage to put work up, and also to ask for help -- but no one is going to offer out of the blue to read one's work. So the alternative is either a "Help Wanted" thread which will need exactly the same courage so isn't much better, or a "Help Offered" thread where you still need to ask someone -- and still face being turned down. So, courage, mon brave! (Or should that be "ma brave" as we're both female?)

Brev -- you shouldn't put the whole or a substantial part of a short story on Critiques for that very reason. All of Chrons is open and I can't see that changing in the near future, but even then (as I understand the mechanism), it would not be a writing group as such, merely part of AW which is only open to members of the whole site.

 

[Brev]

Brev -- you shouldn't put the whole or a substantial part of a short story on Critiques for that very reason. All of Chrons is open and I can't see that changing in the near future, but even then (as I understand the mechanism), it would not be a writing group as such, merely part of AW which is only open to members of the whole site.

That's what I thought.
I like the idea though, because as an aspiring author, I know it will benefit me. There's lots of people here, with invaluable experience, knowledge and ideas, from which I can only hope to learn.

 

[Hex]

Hex -- sorry, my comment wasn't meant as a dig at you!

I didn't take it that way, I swear! It was something I was wondering about, since it didn't seem sensible to post a question on the thread, but there were other questions there and so on (insert more trailing away waffle here).