A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[Boaz]

viZ, did you ever see The Blues Brothers? The last we see of Burton Mercer (John Candy) in the film is his squad car landing inside an eighteen wheeler.

Burton: [to the other officer] Hi! Wanna hand me the mike? ... Thanks a lot.
Burton: [speaking into the radio] Hi, this is car um...
Burton: [to the other officer] What number are we?
Officer: Five-five.
Burton: [into the radio] Car 55. Um... we're in a truck! [chuckles nervously]

That's what I thought of when I read...

I'm Bran Stark. I'm a tree.

 

[viZion]

Dogmatix, Welcome.

I tend to agree with Varamyr's mentor... warging into another person is wrong. Bran's a kid, he does not know any better and Hodor's basically defenseless anyway.

But on to Jon... A true and unique second life by warging into a dead body would truly be something. Remind me who these bodies are... Rangers or Wildlings? But don't you think that someone would notice if a body was up and walking around again? He'd have to hightail it out of there. He'd be a loner. He'd be a former brother of the NW forced to live alone north of the wall. And he'd have warging powers to have the forest critters help him.... hmmmmm, sounds like Coldhands.

Do we really need another Coldhands?

I think the point about Jon warging into a corpse in the midst of hundreds of people who aren't particularly fond of wights is a valid one. There's no way he lasts long enough to signal a parley to explain the situation. Further, how could he plan this with anyone else? Who on the Wall would go along with a plot to essentially (in their minds) create a wight? Mel? Is she going to hold off everyone from ripping corpse-Jon to pieces the moment they see him?

Here's another thing: Assuming Ghost survives, he doesn't seem like the type of direwolf that's going to be cool with hanging out with a corpse-Jon. He's already independent enough to disappear on his own for days at a time. What would keep Ghost attached to corpse-Jon? And if Ghost leaves then Jon symbolically ceases to be a Stark.

If Ghost dies, it's the same situation; Jon symbolically loses his Stark status (the same thing that happened to Sansa). Then again, perhaps GRRM *wants* that to happen so that can be Azor Ahai reborn instead.

 

[Boaz]

viZ, I dunno if we need another Coldhands, but I'd like to explain his who and how.

Another idea on AAR... the original AA tempered his blade in the beating heart of his wife. I've always taken this to mean that AAR must also prepare his weapon by killing his love. If Jon is AAR, then who or what is Jon's love? Ygritte? Ghost? The Night's Watch? Val? Winterfell? House Stark? Arya?

And what is Jon's weapon? Lightbringer as we know it is false... it must be reforged by AAR himself. Longclaw? Does AAR's weapon need be a sword? The Horn of Winter? Magic of R'hllor? Mel's ruby?

 

[viZion]

viZ, I dunno if we need another Coldhands, but I'd like to explain his who and how.

Another idea on AAR... the original AA tempered his blade in the beating heart of his wife. I've always taken this to mean that AAR must also prepare his weapon by killing his love. If Jon is AAR, then who or what is Jon's love? Ygritte? Ghost? The Night's Watch? Val? Winterfell? House Stark? Arya?

And what is Jon's weapon? Lightbringer as we know it is false... it must be reforged by AAR himself. Longclaw? Does AAR's weapon need be a sword? The Horn of Winter? Magic of R'hllor? Mel's ruby?

I actually kind of like Garion's theory that the Night's Watch itself is Lightbringer. I also like my own theory that the Wall is going to come crashing down. I also like my KISS theory that Jon simply survives his stab wounds the same way Tyrion survives getting maimed at the end of every one his chapters.

Therefore, I'm going to combine the theories and say that Jon survives his wounds and loses control of the Wall/Night's Watch but is allowed to recuperate in custody. Jon eventually escapes. He finds the true Horn of Winter. Then:

Jon prepares his weapon (the Night's Watch) by blowing the Horn and destroying his love (the Wall). Why would he do destroy the Wall? I don't know but maybe he realizes that the only way to get people to fight the Others is to take down the [failing] protection of the Wall.

 

[juleska]

I don't like this. Now you guys have me wondering if Jon's really dead and if Ghost is gone too.

Not happy.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

It's possible I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here but his "trick" worked on Catelyn as well. Also, he physically changed every time he performed the Breath of Life, becoming "older" and weaker each time. Remember, he was a jolly fat monk when we first met him and by the time Brienne sees him in AFFC, he looks ancient and is nothing but skin and bones. Brienne barely recognizes him. My point is that eventually performing resurrections is going to kill him and that it will happen sooner than later. No chance for the Brotherhood to become the most powerful army unless they had a separate army of Thoros types backing them up.

Right, I forgot that he got older and weaker every time. That blows that whole plan to pieces, although technically, Thoros didn't Ressurect Cat, Berric did. He gave his life to her, Literally.

CRACKPOT THEORY AHEAD
Maybe in taking down the wall, he will then pull Lightbringer out of it. AA origanally came about to fight the Others, then they put up that wall, which we know has some magic to it. Maybe the sword, as part of that Magic, is in the wall. If it IS, then it would be somewhere around Castle Black, because CB is at the middle of the wall.

As for HOW the wall comes down, my guess is the Horn of Winter, which will effectively burn the wall down, despite its being Ice. It is a magic horn after all, and it is called the Horn of Winter. In winter, you need fire to survive/not freeze to death, but when everything is frozen, having a magic horn that can turn ICE into FIRE with a SONG, then you're good to go. I also always wondered how a wall of ice was keeping back White Walkers, which have powers with Ice, and can only be destroyed by fire.

Or maybe Im just a crazy person and haven't had enough coffee this morning.

 

[juleska]

Wow. I *never* thought of that. Tell me the wall can turn into a giant blazing fire and Jon and Ghost both get to live....and I'm yours.

 

[firstfist]

Jon prepares his weapon (the Night's Watch) by blowing the Horn and destroying his love (the Wall).

Assuming Jon is AA and the wall is lightbringer, Jon already tempered the blade in his love. An annonomous member of the nights watch, but the nights watch slew her with an arrow.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I would't say Ygritte was jons Love (note the capitol L). sure he loved her, but it wasn't the kind of burning love that would make him betray his oath, unlike whatshisface oakheart, the soiled knight.

I am standing by my crackpot theory (or at least part of it) that Lightbringer, the real sword forged by AA, is in or is part of the wall, and that Jon, or whomever, will need to pull it out (or is that too Arthurian?) to defeat the Others, thus, if not destroying the actual wall, at least destroying the magic it holds.

I have even crack-potier theories about how a flaming sword is part of a wall of ice but won't share them for fear of embarassing myself

 

[Brian G Turner]

If Ghost dies, it's the same situation; Jon symbolically loses his Stark status (the same thing that happened to Sansa). Then again, perhaps GRRM *wants* that to happen so that can be Azor Ahai reborn instead.

Really, he lost his Stark status the moment he went to the wall. He just took a long time accepting it (and at the end of ADWD perhaps he hasn't truly).

However, the point about Ghost is that he was different from the pups - effectively, a runt, apart from the others.

I'm not sure it really affects his Stark status as an outsider or not if Ghost is dead - however, from the prologue of that book, I can see how Jon still being alive and warging into different creatures at will could blossom his abilities. Certainly could be useful if dragons come a'roamin'.

 

[FaitLoupe]

@Dogmatix

Interesting thoughts those...however I (personally) found that it was fairly well established that warg abilities were not only "supernatural" but spiritual abilities-- both Varamyr and Bran POV's reference sending out their thoughts/spirits to the host bodies in question. I take this to mean that if the host is dead, one's thoughts or spirit cannot "bond" or control via warging -- that would be something completely different and somewhat along the lines of necromancy à la Qybern and Sir Robert Strong.

So for me, while it's interesting to consider, I'm just not sold on Jon Snow being [willing or] able to warg into one of the bodies in the ice cells.

I do however think that your concerns about Ghost might be close, if not correct. What a sad day that will be.

 

[All Men Must Die]

My question is why would his brother try to kill Jon. They got him four times?

I know the Men of the Night Watch hate and despise the Wildings. And Jon been making a lot of deals with them. Letting them pass and be south of the Wall, feeding them, giving them a chance to join the watch. All the other things Jon did for the Wildings.

My point is the Wildings are not going to sit there and watch Jon being murdered in front of their eyes. If I remember right Jon was just giving a speech and letting a bunch Wildings know about the letter he just received. Telling about the change of plans. I'm sure they are going to rescue and protect Jon. And by all accounts the Wildings have way more men than the Night's Watch. Jon is probably going to wake up and find all his brother dead or something along those lines.

All always assume that the Others were going to find the Horn of Winter and blow on it to bring the whole Wall down.

 

[Utlendr]

- I don't think Jon is dead either.. so far GRRMs main character death scenes have been more to the point. But Jon's attack scene was very vague.

- Rickon has to be on Skagos, I can't think of any other place. But I do remember that Asha and Rickon went south after they split with Bran and the Reeds. The journey to Skagos in Bolton territory had to be one helluva trek. But it's the only place I can think of. And the Skags are still sworn to Winterfell, regardless of what or who they eat.

- Aegon and Connington ally with Dorne and with Kevan dead, who runs the throne? I don't imagine Cersei returning as regent. This will be great to read about in future books.

- Jaime.. if he was going to die at the hands of Cat and her followers.. it would have happened in ADWD, instead it was just some talk about "Jaime missing". I don't imagine Winds starts off with a chapter in which they hang Jaime.. very unclimatic.

- There is also that story with Sam and the Maester in Oldtown. I am still very confused as to what the heck happened in the beginning (and end) of Feast for Crows in regards to the Maester students, the alchemist, the murder, etc. I'm excited to see that story expand.

- Stannis is not dead as Ramsay wrote in his letter as apparent in the preview "Theon Chapter" from Winds of Winter on GRRMs site. And Mance Rayder still has a part to play as well.

 

[Nerds_feather]

no way jon is "dead," as in "gone from the story."

i hope he's not "dead," as in "not in a living human body anymore" either.

 

[krisg]

Now can Dany bare children again.....

Mirri Maz Duur prophecy from Got
When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east ~ Quentyn Martell
When the sea dries up ~ the Dothraki Sea
and the mountains crumble ~ the pyramids of Mereen

if this is true, then it could mean Khal Drogo shall return to Dany

 

[juleska]

- I don't think Jon is dead either.. so far GRRMs main character death scenes have been more to the point. But Jon's attack scene was very vague.

- Rickon has to be on Skagos, I can't think of any other place. But I do remember that Asha and Rickon went south after they split with Bran and the Reeds. The journey to Skagos in Bolton territory had to be one helluva trek. But it's the only place I can think of. And the Skags are still sworn to Winterfell, regardless of what or who they eat.

- Aegon and Connington ally with Dorne and with Kevan dead, who runs the throne? I don't imagine Cersei returning as regent. This will be great to read about in future books.

- Jaime.. if he was going to die at the hands of Cat and her followers.. it would have happened in ADWD, instead it was just some talk about "Jaime missing". I don't imagine Winds starts off with a chapter in which they hang Jaime.. very unclimatic.

- There is also that story with Sam and the Maester in Oldtown. I am still very confused as to what the heck happened in the beginning (and end) of Feast for Crows in regards to the Maester students, the alchemist, the murder, etc. I'm excited to see that story expand.

- Stannis is not dead as Ramsay wrote in his letter as apparent in the preview "Theon Chapter" from Winds of Winter on GRRMs site. And Mance Rayder still has a part to play as well.

Good stuff....my only bone of contention is that the preview chapter from TWOW doesn't prove Ramsay's letter untrue. The timeline is backed up. A lot of chapters from the beginnings of these books overlap time-wise with ending chapters from the preceding book. You know the timeline is backed up because Stannis is just getting word that the Boltons are marching toward him, yet by the time that letter reaches Jon it's been quite awhile since they set out from Winterfell to march on Stannis.

All that said, I think Ramsay's letter is completely full of s***. I also do not think Stannis is dead. It's definitely possible that he is, I just think GRRM isn't done with him.

As intensely dislikeable as Stannis may be, he's a really fascinating character for a redemption arc. He's one of the most intelligent people in Westeros, and yet also one of the dumbest. He always does what he thinks is right, even when it's dead wrong. But he's steadfast in his conviction and unapologetic for his decisions....be they brilliant or dumbfoundingly bad. I think he's a man in search of a purpose for his life. His sense of entitlement to the throne is not borne of delight at the thought of being in power, but because he believes it is his duty and his purpose to assume rule of the realm. We all know he'll never sit the Iron Throne, but the man has travelled most of Westeros and saved the Wall at a crucial hour. Seems like all that would be a waste if all he ended up doing was dying in the snow while Ramsay's band of thugs took him unawares. I think he's got a role to play, still.

 

[Eulalia]

Perhaps Stannis will volunteer for Mel's fires, when he finds out Jon is the One.

 

[juleska]

Ooooooooo......now THERE'S an interesting premise.

 

[Fungous]

- I don't think Jon is dead either.. so far GRRMs main character death scenes have been more to the point. But Jon's attack scene was very vague.

- Rickon has to be on Skagos, I can't think of any other place. But I do remember that Asha and Rickon went south after they split with Bran and the Reeds. The journey to Skagos in Bolton territory had to be one helluva trek. But it's the only place I can think of. And the Skags are still sworn to Winterfell, regardless of what or who they eat.

- Aegon and Connington ally with Dorne and with Kevan dead, who runs the throne? I don't imagine Cersei returning as regent. This will be great to read about in future books.

- Jaime.. if he was going to die at the hands of Cat and her followers.. it would have happened in ADWD, instead it was just some talk about "Jaime missing". I don't imagine Winds starts off with a chapter in which they hang Jaime.. very unclimatic.

- There is also that story with Sam and the Maester in Oldtown. I am still very confused as to what the heck happened in the beginning (and end) of Feast for Crows in regards to the Maester students, the alchemist, the murder, etc. I'm excited to see that story expand.

- Stannis is not dead as Ramsay wrote in his letter as apparent in the preview "Theon Chapter" from Winds of Winter on GRRMs site. And Mance Rayder still has a part to play as well.

Totally agree! I'm a first time poster here but have been reading the thread intently since I finished the book. The theories on here have been great and really increased my appreciation of the books. I'd like to put forward my own crackpot theory on Jon here.

JON ISN'T DEAD: But, he needs more in order to grow into his role as Lord Commander... The stabbing is exactly what he needs. His body, regardless of whether he will be reborn as AAR or if his body survives the assassination attempt, the passing out gives him time to start exploring his Warginess. I don't want to think about them going after Ghost but what if in his reaching out... He goes first to Mormont's Raven! In one of the Bran chapter's when he was practicing trying on new skins, he went into a Raven and felt the presence of someone else... So who's to say Jon can't go unconscious, settle into the bird to get a view of Castle Black and also get a nice helping of knowledge from Bran! John can grow up and concentrate on being AAR with the knowledge of Bran being alive and whatever else Bran can feed him. That Raven has to be there for a reason.

Its great that you mention the Oldtown storyline that has gone no where. It's there for a reason other than just letting you know that the faceless men are trying to get into Oldtown. I despise Dany and would be incredibly happy if they took her out and her Dragons moved on to Aegon and his upcoming merge with Dorne. And yes, that will happen and the entire South will shudder. 50,000 Dornish AND The Golden Company? With Cersei suspicious of the Tyrells? Who are also fighting the Iron Islands? There are going to be some MAJOR battles coming up, even before we start thinking about the upcoming battles with the Wights!!!

 

[Bran_the_Broken]

Im confused as to why everones so sure ser Davos is going to get rickon. Im thinking i missed something in one of the davos chapters or something earlier. I had assumed he was going to try and smuggle manderlys kid in kings landing. Please help I finished adwd and am feigning for the next book already, cant imagine how long its felt for those who have completed the book years ago when it was released