Adwd First reactions (spoilers inside)

[Angrybushpig]

Oh I completely agree with you, if he had stayed with Aegon and gone to Westeros with him I think it would have been a much better story than him essentially doing nothing but getting into those situations that Tyrion always seems to find himself in (and thrive in). His inner monologue and dialogue with everyone is so enjoyable to read, that I guess regardless of what hes doing I look forward to reading his chapters and knowing he'll still be the same old Tyrion.

Why do you start you point with something that concerns you, round it out and then say how you think it's awesome at the end? Make up your mind. Your posts are like nothing.

 

[viZion]

Why do you start you point with something that concerns you, round it out and then say how you think it's awesome at the end? Make up your mind. Your posts are like nothing.

You really ought to check out the forums at westeros.org. I think they are more your speed. They even have an entire stickythread about how and why you're going to be flamed when start posting there. You'll fit right in.

 

[JagLover]

I'm not against cliffhangers, I'm against BAD cliffhangers.

Too much of the combined AFFC & ADWD was that we had 80% of the story and GRRM had not yet decided how to write the remaining 20% so he gave us filler instead.

The worst example of this was the Mereen storyline, many key characters were building towards a resolution and then we did not get one.

I am rereading ADWD at the moment and simply skipping the Tyrion & Dany chapters and find the book allot better as a result. Many characters such as Ayra did get a full books worth of plot progression in the combined AFFC & ADWD and those chapters still stand comparison to what has gone before.

 

[Ursa major]

Oh I completely agree with you, if he had stayed with Aegon and gone to Westeros with him I think it would have been a much better story than him essentially doing nothing but getting into those situations that Tyrion always seems to find himself in (and thrive in). His inner monologue and dialogue with everyone is so enjoyable to read, that I guess regardless of what hes doing I look forward to reading his chapters and knowing he'll still be the same old Tyrion.

I disagree with your first statement. Tyrion has very few options, and he has little or no control of the choice between them. Let's assume that Jorah didn't find him.

• Tyrion might have been taken back to Westeros. And his companions would probably have had the same attitude as Ben Plumm, that he's valuable in terms of gold. Whether one of the sellswords would have broken ranks to sell Tyrion to the Lannisters, or whether Tyrion could have been used as a decoy or the bait in a trap, I don't know, but Tyrion would have been at the mercy of others and would have found it hard to change his own fate. What we like about Tyrion is that he takes control of events; he'd have much less scope to do this in these situations.
• Tyrion would know that he was heading for Cersei's sisterly embrace, so he would have tried to escape. If he succeeded, what would he do? He has no natural allies in Essos, and even if Illyrio wanted to help, Tyrion's a long way away from the Golden Company. (And a bigger problem than this is that Tyrion would be left to wander - if he was lucky - randomly around Essos. Is this what the readers want? Wouldn't we have comments like: "Tyrion has turned into a less tall version of Brienne!")

I think either of these circumstances offer less scope for Tyrion to make changes to events. He could show how clever he was, but only to save his own skin. I want to see Tyrion in a position to change how the story pans out, if only because he's one of the few characters who are both clever and (occasionally) able to think beyond their own needs.


(By the way, I don't think you were contradicting yourself at all in this post. Try to ignore those who said you were.)

 

[soulsinging]

That would dispel doubts that some people have had as to whther or not GRRM knows where the story is going and/or has lost control of the narrative.

Not at all. Robert Jordan had the final chapter of WoT done before he even finished the first book. The fact that he knows how he wants it to end doesn't mean he's figured out how to get there yet.

Too much of the combined AFFC & ADWD was that we had 80% of the story and GRRM had not yet decided how to write the remaining 20% so he gave us filler instead.

Exactly.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Arrogant *******? How true your status rings.

Hehe. That's funny.

Not so much the post itself, but rather the fact that it's pretty clear the irony escapes you.

I want to see Tyrion in a position to change how the story pans out, if only because he's one of the few characters who are both clever and (occasionally) able to think beyond their own needs.

Yup. I can easily see him as a sort of 'Kingmaker'.

(By the way, I don't think you were contradicting yourself at all in this post. Try to ignore those who said you were.)

I second that.

Not at all. Robert Jordan had the final chapter of WoT done before he even finished the first book. The fact that he knows how he wants it to end doesn't mean he's figured out how to get there yet.

Agree.

While I wouldn't go quite as far as to dismiss AFFC and ADWD as "filler", it does certainly seem that there was a whole lot of nothing in the two. Quite a few chapters that we really didn't need to see the details of, including some of Tyrion's and Dany's. But there were some interesting bits, too (mostly Arya's and Bran's).

I think that perhaps GRRM didn't need to split this into two. The best half of AFFC coupled with the best half of ADWD would have actually made a pretty darn good book.

 

[Needle]

Not at all. Robert Jordan had the final chapter of WoT done before he even finished the first book. The fact that he knows how he wants it to end doesn't mean he's figured out how to get there .

I can no longer find the interview but GRRM has said he knew how the story began and he knows how it ends it's the getting there that's hard!

 

[Needle]

Why do you start you point with something that concerns you, round it out and then say how you think it's awesome at the end? Make up your mind. Your posts are like nothing.

Arrogant *******? How true your status rings.

Okay ABP I have had just about enough of you! It takes alot to anger me, I am a nurse (and student), a good one who is abused daily by people without a clue, and good naturedly arguing with each other is what we do here. So far after a peak at your first post I simply avoided your thread, now I find you here, please just go away!

If the censors are seeing this please take steps, this has turned into direct abuse and insulting of others!

 

[The Judge]

OK. You all know the rules which apply everywhere in the forums. You argue the point, not the person.

Abuse of other members will not be tolerated. Those seeking to indulge in flame wars will be shown the door.

I'm not closing the thread yet, because I have no doubt the responsible members among you have plenty more to say on the subject in hand. However, any further unpleasantness and the thread will be locked.

 

[Eulalia]

Thank you, Judge!

Is it okay to say that I smell bacon? .

I particularly liked GRRM's use of food imagery. Frey pie was a masterpiece, in a Sweeney Todd kind of way.

 

[Quick Ben]

Why would you lock the thread and not simply ban the person(s) who is responsible for the abuse?

 

[mtzGr]

I disagree with your first statement. Tyrion has very few options, and he has little or no control of the choice between them. Let's assume that Jorah didn't find him.

• Tyrion might have been taken back to Westeros. And his companions would probably have had the same attitude as Ben Plumm, that he's valuable in terms of gold. Whether one of the sellswords would have broken ranks to sell Tyrion to the Lannisters, or whether Tyrion could have been used as a decoy or the bait in a trap, I don't know, but Tyrion would have been at the mercy of others and would have found it hard to change his own fate. What we like about Tyrion is that he takes control of events; he'd have much less scope to do this in these situations.
• Tyrion would know that he was heading for Cersei's sisterly embrace, so he would have tried to escape. If he succeeded, what would he do? He has no natural allies in Essos, and even if Illyrio wanted to help, Tyrion's a long way away from the Golden Company. (And a bigger problem than this is that Tyrion would be left to wander - if he was lucky - randomly around Essos. Is this what the readers want? Wouldn't we have comments like: "Tyrion has turned into a less tall version of Brienne!")

I think either of these circumstances offer less scope for Tyrion to make changes to events. He could show how clever he was, but only to save his own skin. I want to see Tyrion in a position to change how the story pans out, if only because he's one of the few characters who are both clever and (occasionally) able to think beyond their own needs.


(By the way, I don't think you were contradicting yourself at all in this post. Try to ignore those who said you were.)

I agree that regardless of where or what Tyrion is doing, he is going to be at the mercy of others because he has no money (at his disposal), and he is on the run from the Iron Throne. As you pointed out, what Tyrion does posses is value. But while his value as a reward from the queen is foremost, what I think is much more intriging is his value as the rightful heir to Casterly Rock and an unquestionable enemy of the Iron Throne and the rest of his family.

I think you're assuming that even if he had gone back to Westeros with Aegon, that he'd be in much the same situation that he is in now, but I don't see why that HAS to be his fate. Obviously Connington has no love for him, but after saving Aegons life he had definitely earned some respect.

Now we'll say that Jorah was never in the brothel (because theres no way Tyrion doesn't go there!), and he stays with Aegon and meets with the Golden Company. Aegon heeds his advice anyway, because whether Connington trusts or likes him has no bearing on the fact that Tyrion knows what he's talking about. Kings Hand, yes? So now we see Tyrion travel back with the Golden Company and instead of reading about his adventures riding on a pig, and GRRM having to turn Connington into a pov because there was nobody else there to tell the story, they travel to Westeros and the story of Aegons return is fleshed out. Tyrions 8 chapters and Conningtons 2 (generalization) are turned into say 6 or 7. Really I think GRRM didnt WANT to have to tell a story back in Westeros; I'm not sure he really knows how thats supposed to pan out just yet, or maybe that stories not even supposed to be told and Aegon is not going to be central to the game as some people have pointed out.

Regardless, I think the dynamic of Tyrion back in Westeros, allied with Aegon, working with Varys (who is certainly busy) and Illyrio, and meeting up with Dorne (Prince Doran and Tyrion playing cyvasse, yes?) and Myrcella would have been much more interesting than the story we were told.

I agree with wanting to see him having a big part in the story. If Dany decides to stop acting like Sansa and Tyrion is drawn into her intentions that could be interesting. Instead, hopefully he will take the Brothers back to capture Casterly Rock and assume its seat!

And yeah, I can't be bothered with people who've no comprehension of english.

 

[mtzGr]

I think that perhaps GRRM didn't need to split this into two. The best half of AFFC coupled with the best half of ADWD would have actually made a pretty darn good book.

Agree, I think it was a problem of him not knowing how to get where he needed to go.

 

[Pyan]

Why would you lock the thread and not simply ban the person(s) who is responsible for the abuse?

Because the moderators try to keep as light a hand as possible, Ben, and we know that most members have no time for the disruptive. After the annoyance of having a couple of popular threads closed due to one idiot, people tend to let us know sooner if they spot potential trouble, and nip it in the bud themselves if possible. But we always close a thread if it's obviously started by a troll, or is likely to be really offensive to the majority of members.

BTW, your User Title: is that a statement, or a request...

 

[Mesanna]

I just wanted to say a quick thanks to the mods for cracking down on this quickly. This forum is normally so friendly and respectful, even when posters are disagreeing, and it was quite jarring to read comments like that.

 

[soulsinging]

Is it okay to say that I smell bacon?

You're a jerk!

Cos now I've got the munchies...

 

[Ursa major]

Posters should note that streaking is frowned upon here.

Now back to the thread topic:

I think you're assuming that even if he had gone back to Westeros with Aegon, that he'd be in much the same situation that he is in now, but I don't see why that HAS to be his fate. Obviously Connington has no love for him, but after saving Aegons life he had definitely earned some respect.

I think he's in a much better position now than he would be if he was with Aegon. This is driven partly:

• by the thought that Tyrion may not wish to return Westeros (and so he may have tried, and perhaps succeeded, to escape, with the consequences I mentioned,
• because once in Westeros, Tyrion's room and time for manoeuvre is very limited. The closer Aegon had approached to King's Landing, the easier it would be for someone to deliver Tyrion on a plate. However, if he does finally get an audience with Dany (and not in a fighting pit), he's safer, because King's Landing is so far away, allowing Dany time to react to anything that would deprive her of Tyrion's help. And as you pointed out in the case of Aegon, why wouldn't she want this? Before he left Westeros, he was at the heart of things.
• because GRRM would have had to bring forward the detailed planning for Aegon's conquest. By this, I mean what's put on paper, not what Aegon and Connington are planning (which must have happened before the invasion). This was kept rather vague in ADwD; we will see the the details of how the conquest is achieved (or not), rather than seeing how it should be going before hand. This, for me, has always been one of the strengths of the book: that we know of some vague plans and are then blown away by what really happens.

By the way, I'm not saying that Tyrion's early return to Westeros couldn't be written to be interesting and exciting, just that Dany is in more need for some Tyrions advice than Aegon is.

 

[mtzGr]

By the way, I'm not saying that Tyrion's early return to Westeros couldn't be written to be interesting and exciting, just that Dany is in more need for some Tyrions advice than Aegon is.

I agree with you here, but I cant see this happening for very long because it seems like either one of their POV's would have to be sacrificed (omitted) half of the time, or the story is going to move terribly slow, or not at all, again.

But hey, I'd like to see Tyrion be riding Rhaegal. ;]

 

[Eulalia]

Soulsinging. Sorry about the munchies. I was just containing my anger about a certain pig, and perhaps I posted rasherly.

I think it is possible that we are meant to see Tyrion's potential as Dany's Hand and we needed to see him turning against the Lannisters, advising Targs, thinking strategically about the mercenaries, saving peoples lives and talking his way out of situations. And he also needed to get himself to Mereen. I think a Dany/Tyrion duo was set up nicely. As it happens, he gets along with Jon as well...

We need to see Dany stalled without good advice--BFS being a little too honourable to be a perfect number one, and Daario being to much a bad boy.

And the dragons need to grow up and be flown (one down), so we are eased into a little more fantasy. We are also seeing how dangerous the dragons are now.

The chapters with Bran also grew organically. Never saw that coming!