Arya of House Stark or No One (ADWD SPOILERS)

[Lady of Winterfell]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Faceless Men only killed those the Many Faced god required or had been requested? Jaqen says he owes 3 deaths to his god because Arya saved the 3 of them from the fire (Jaqen, Rorge, and Biter I believe). But had all 3 of them been marked for death by the Many Faced god, including Jaqen himself? Or was he simply giving 3 deaths to R'hllor? Did he worship R'hllor and the Many Faced God?

 

[viZion]

I don't remember him worshipping R'hllor at all. Can anyone else confirm that?

Edit: Ok, got it..he mentions "the red god" or something. Maybe "Jaqen" alter ego worships R'hllor but the real person underneath the disguise is a follower of the Many-Faced God? I dunno.

 

[Mesanna]

These are interesting ideas.

Imp, if your idea that Jaqen was there to recruit Arya, then surely Syrio MUST be a Faceless Man, or at least an agent of theirs, because how would they know much about her, beyond the fact that she was Ned Stark's tomboyish daughter. I'm not sure that I buy this to be honest, as it seems just a bit too omnipotent on their part. I like ViZion's theory that it was coincidence and Jaqen liked what he saw in her and gave her an opportunity and left the rest to fate.

I'm not completely convinced that the Faceless Men are forbidden to kill, except when contracted to do so. It might be frowned upon, but I don't know that it's actually against the rules. Arya killed the Night Watch guy (can't remember his name) without permission and many thought her blindness was a punishment for that. Yet on reading ADWD, it seems that this was the next stage of her training and it would have happened anyway. She doesn't seem to receive any punishment or even a talking down for an unsanctioned killing. I don't really buy that they are honourable assassins, who wouldn't harm a fly unless they were told to (though clearly they aren't marauding axe murderers either!)

 

[Dolorous Edd]

There's a big difference between acknowledging and respecting/fearing a god's existence and actually worshipping it. The three of them were going to burn, and arya saved them from the fire. He said R'hllor was a hungry god. It was simply prudent to offer the god 3 lives in recompense to avoid pissing him off. Though surely they should have died by fire? It was the same with craster and his children. I don't think he worshipped the Great Other, but when you live in the Otherland (Sorry Tad Williams!) it pays to leave him a few gifts every now and then if you don't want to get wighted.

 

[The Imp]

These are interesting ideas.

Imp, if your idea that Jaqen was there to recruit Arya, then surely Syrio MUST be a Faceless Man, or at least an agent of theirs, because how would they know much about her, beyond the fact that she was Ned Stark's tomboyish daughter. I'm not sure that I buy this to be honest, as it seems just a bit too omnipotent on their part. I like ViZion's theory that it was coincidence and Jaqen liked what he saw in her and gave her an opportunity and left the rest to fate.

I'm not completely convinced that the Faceless Men are forbidden to kill, except when contracted to do so. It might be frowned upon, but I don't know that it's actually against the rules. Arya killed the Night Watch guy (can't remember his name) without permission and many thought her blindness was a punishment for that. Yet on reading ADWD, it seems that this was the next stage of her training and it would have happened anyway. She doesn't seem to receive any punishment or even a talking down for an unsanctioned killing. I don't really buy that they are honourable assassins, who wouldn't harm a fly unless they were told to (though clearly they aren't marauding axe murderers either!)

I think Jaqan=Syrio.

The Kindly Man also "SEEMED to know who Arya was when she first got to the house of Black and White. I always assumed that he knew this because he knew she was coming.

"Tell me your name, child."
"Salty. I come from Saltpans, by the Trident."
Though she could not see his face, somehow she could feel him smiling. "No," he said. "Tell me your name."
"Squab," she answered this time.
"Your true name, child."
"My mother named me Nan, but they call me Weasel--"
"Your name."
She swallowed. "Arry. I'm Arry. "
"Closer. And now the truth?"
Fear cuts deeper than swords,she told herself. "Arya." She whispered the word the first time. The second time she threw it at him. "I am Arya, of House Stark."
"You are," he said, "but the House of Black and White is no place for Arya, of House Stark."

 

[Young stormlord]

I think Arya will follow the path of Brynden Rivers, aka Bloodraven. Did you read rumours about him "Mystery Knight":

How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one.

Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packsof gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him andwhispered secrets in his ear. Most of the tales were only tales, Dunk did not doubt, but no one could doubt that Bloodraven had informers everywhere.

If we take these rumours at base value, it means that Bloodraven was both a warg and faceless man... and that Faceless Men have a way of dealing with that, so their students can be trained.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

I think Arya will follow the path of Brynden Rivers, aka Bloodraven. Did you read rumours about him "Mystery Knight":


If we take these rumours at base value, it means that Bloodraven was both a warg and faceless man... and that Faceless Men have a way of dealing with that, so their students can be trained.

A Faceless warg!

 

[Ursa major]

The Kindly Man also "SEEMED to know who Arya was when she first got to the house of Black and White. I always assumed that he knew this because he knew she was coming.

Wasn't one of the skills that Arya was having to learn that of telling whether soneone was lying? And if the Kindly Man had that skill, which I think we can assume he has, he could have worked out when Arya was finally telling him her true name.


(Having said that, I'm one of those who believe that Arya was recruited and that, at the very least, the Faceless Men knew that she might turn up on their doorstep.)

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I'm of the opinion that Arya will leave the Faceless Men when she wants, and not from failing a test. We've already seen her warging give her the edge and ability to cheat the tests. There's no telling how else she might be able to use skinchanging to help her through her tasks without losing herself.

 

[Ursa major]

I'd forgotten about the dangers of a warg losing him- or herself.

Perhaps Arya's name at the temple, No One, is a foreshadowing of this fate (which may be part of GRRM's plans for a bittersweet ending to ASoIaF).

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Oh, I don't think Arya would lose herself as an animal. I meant that presumably acolytes of the House of Black and White shouldn't have as much of a personal identity as Arya still does, but her warging has allowed her to cheat. I meant that she will most likely finish her training, or much of it anyway, without losing her identity as Arya.

 

[The Imp]

Wasn't one of the skills that Arya was having to learn that of telling whether soneone was lying? And if the Kindly Man had that skill, which I think we can assume he has, he could have worked out when Arya was finally telling him her true name.


(Having said that, I'm one of those who believe that Arya was recruited and that, at the very least, the Faceless Men knew that she might turn up on their doorstep.)

I thought as about that. it seemed to me that TKM knew that Arry was very close to Arya, and that she was in fact Arya of House Stark. It's not conclusive, just a hunch.

 

[Young stormlord]

i'm almost 100% positive that Jaqan worshipped the Many-Faced god (all Gods), not just R'hllor.



I've always felt it was more than coincidental that Arya just "happened" to meet a Faceless Man who was captive despite having the skills to be free whenever he wanted. I question how he could have even been captured in the first place. I suppose that one could make the argument that a Faceless Man is not allowed to kill unlless "called" to do so by the Many-Faced God, which might make it hard to escape from captors unless his very life was being threatened. I just can't beleive that Jaqan could be captured by the bumbling oafs in King's Landing. I think his presence in KL is part of a greater plan which Arya is part of, and he manipulated her every step of the way.

Wasn't one of the skills that Arya was having to learn that of telling whether soneone was lying? And if the Kindly Man had that skill, which I think we can assume he has, he could have worked out when Arya was finally telling him her true name.


(Having said that, I'm one of those who believe that Arya was recruited and that, at the very least, the Faceless Men knew that she might turn up on their doorstep.)

I think that we are overthinking this a bit. Let's try to be rational about it.

Q:What is the way Braavosi recognise Faceless Men?
A: Iron coin and the words "Valar Morghulis".


It stands to reason that there is limited number of iron coins. The only way to get one for yourself is to either kill Faceless Man (or loot him), in which way you either won't know the words (and be killed on sight), or will really want to and be able to join. The other way is to be given the coin and told the words.


I don't see a child killing a Faceless Man or dreaming to become one, especially not Braavosi child (who know the words and respect FM). That leaves option number two: get given a coin and told the words.


Now, Jaquen could have sent a coded message to Kindly man saying something like:


"Yo Housekeeper, I have found a new recruit.



She is fierce, high-born, quick thinking and, all in all, a very promising young lady. She is Arya of House Stark, but goes by the name of Arry or Weasel or, by the time she reaches you, some other names.


Her name doesn't matter, because she currently looks like this: [Arya's short description, how it changed over time, including the little Braavosi styled sword on the hip].



She knows the value of life and almost killed me with a whisper [short explanation of what happened], so I gave her one of my coins (making the number of them currently in my possesion four) and told her the words. Expect her in a year or so, because she is still trying to go home to Winterfell.



Sincerely yours,
The Fat Man


P.S. That thing in KL was finished successfully, moving to do the Iron Islands project next. "


Then he finds the closest Braavosi ship, shows the coin, tells the words and gives them letter to be delivered to The House of Black and White.



The kind man looks at peerage books, or FM files if you will, finds Westeros, finds House Stark of Winterfell, finds Arya in there and makes a note.


A year or so later, a kid enters the house (which you can't do unless showing the coin and telling the words. maybe coin is worth a life or free death (suicide?)), wearing small Braavosi stile sword, helps a nobleman to die by giving him a drink and then kind man shows up and talks with her. One of the first thing he tells her is that she is too young to look for mercy of many faced god, so she must be something else. Then she shows him the coin and the above exchange happens (quoted by Imp).

No need for anything supernatural or magical.

 

[Ursa major]

No need for anything supernatural or magical.

Exactly.

By the way, at the time Jaqen gave Arya the coin, she no longer had a sword. She only recovered Needle from Polliver by chance, and that was after her grand tour of the Riverlands (with Hot Pie, then Tom O' Sevens and then the Hound).

 

[The Imp]

I think that we are overthinking this a bit. Let's try to be rational about it.

Q:What is the way Braavosi recognise Faceless Men?
A: Iron coin and the words "Valar Morghulis".


It stands to reason that there is limited number of iron coins. The only way to get one for yourself is to either kill Faceless Man (or loot him), in which way you either won't know the words (and be killed on sight), or will really want to and be able to join. The other way is to be given the coin and told the words.


I don't see a child killing a Faceless Man or dreaming to become one, especially not Braavosi child (who know the words and respect FM). That leaves option number two: get given a coin and told the words.


Now, Jaquen could have sent a coded message to Kindly man saying something like:


"Yo Housekeeper, I have found a new recruit.



She is fierce, high-born, quick thinking and, all in all, a very promising young lady. She is Arya of House Stark, but goes by the name of Arry or Weasel or, by the time she reaches you, some other names.


Her name doesn't matter, because she currently looks like this: [Arya's short description, how it changed over time, including the little Braavosi styled sword on the hip].



She knows the value of life and almost killed me with a whisper [short explanation of what happened], so I gave her one of my coins (making the number of them currently in my possesion four) and told her the words. Expect her in a year or so, because she is still trying to go home to Winterfell.



Sincerely yours,
The Fat Man


P.S. That thing in KL was finished successfully, moving to do the Iron Islands project next. "


Then he finds the closest Braavosi ship, shows the coin, tells the words and gives them letter to be delivered to The House of Black and White.



The kind man looks at peerage books, or FM files if you will, finds Westeros, finds House Stark of Winterfell, finds Arya in there and makes a note.


A year or so later, a kid enters the house (which you can't do unless showing the coin and telling the words. maybe coin is worth a life or free death (suicide?)), wearing small Braavosi stile sword, helps a nobleman to die by giving him a drink and then kind man shows up and talks with her. One of the first thing he tells her is that she is too young to look for mercy of many faced god, so she must be something else. Then she shows him the coin and the above exchange happens (quoted by Imp).

No need for anything supernatural or magical.

I don't think "the words" are any great secret

I'm not sure what you referred to when you said this=

I think that we are overthinking this a bit. Let's try to be rational about it.

what was being ovethought or irrational?

 

[JagLover]

I think Arya is one of the best characters in the series but also think the groundwork has been put in place for her to be the very 'greyest' of the 'good' characters and that we may not like all her actions when she returns to Westeros.

As a young girl she has been pretty dark at times and that is before she spends how many years it will turn out to be at that Temple.

I remember that seer who recoiled from her and talked of her 'dark heart'

 

[The Imp]

I think Arya is one of the best characters in the series but also think the groundwork has been put in place for her to be the very 'greyest' of the 'good' characters and that we may not like all her actions when she returns to Westeros.

As a young girl she has been pretty dark at times and that is before she spends how many years it will turn out to be at that Temple.

I remember that seer who recoiled from her and talked of her 'dark heart'

I love Arya, but to call her "grey" is kind of like saying Adolph Hitler had a slight problem with aggression. She's a full blown sociopath IMO. She follows her own set of rules, she shows little to no remorse when she kills, does NOT seem to have a conscience, is a patholigical liar, etc. If we were to meet her as she is today (without knowing her back story) she'd probably be much more on the extreme black end of the scale than grey. She certainly wouldn't be considered "good"

 

[hadd]

I love Arya, but to call her "grey" is kind of like saying Adolph Hitler had a slight problem with aggression. She's a full blown sociopath IMO. She follows her own set of rules, she shows little to no remorse when she kills, does NOT seem to have a conscience, is a patholigical liar, etc. If we were to meet her as she is today (without knowing her back story) she'd probably be much more on the extreme black end of the scale than grey. She certainly wouldn't be considered "good"

I wouldn't go as far as saying that she doesn't have a conscience at all. When she had to kill that insurance guy she definitely had thoughts in the lines of Why do I have to kill him? What has he done? He seems like a good man... And after that she tried to create a worse image of that man for herself so she wouldn't feel that bad when having to kill him.
I'd say a sociopath would be a person who just kills for no real reason, for the pure enjoyment of it. Arya on the other hand is driven by anger, sadness and a bunch of other emotions (having your family killed at that age is bound to leave a psychological mark). She doesn't kill when she doesn't need to. Most of her killing is done a) for self-defense (at least she thinks the killing was necessary to keep her own life) b) as a form of retaliation, revenge.
Also I don't think the lying is because she's pathological and just can't tell the truth, it's part of survival. If she would tell the truth she'd end up in the hands of someone like Ramsay Bolton.
Plus I think the whole deal with the house of black and white is that you don't kill for pleasure or for your own good, it's well....just a job.

Sure in our society she'd need to visit a psychologist but in her world I think her actions are reasoned...somewhat

 

[Needle]

Arya is indeed quite grey! That's part of what makes her so special! For the most part I have to agree with hadd here. Arya's lies are the only reason she is still alive. She has killed when she had no other real choice. It may be a little warped from her life so far but she does have a conscience.

Jag, Arya is my girl, to me there is nothing I can think of that would change that!

 

[The Imp]

I wouldn't go as far as saying that she doesn't have a conscience at all. When she had to kill that insurance guy she definitely had thoughts in the lines of Why do I have to kill him? What has he done? He seems like a good man... And after that she tried to create a worse image of that man for herself so she wouldn't feel that bad when having to kill him.
I'd say a sociopath would be a person who just kills for no real reason, for the pure enjoyment of it. Arya on the other hand is driven by anger, sadness and a bunch of other emotions (having your family killed at that age is bound to leave a psychological mark). She doesn't kill when she doesn't need to. Most of her killing is done a) for self-defense (at least she thinks the killing was necessary to keep her own life) b) as a form of retaliation, revenge.
Also I don't think the lying is because she's pathological and just can't tell the truth, it's part of survival. If she would tell the truth she'd end up in the hands of someone like Ramsay Bolton.
Plus I think the whole deal with the house of black and white is that you don't kill for pleasure or for your own good, it's well....just a job.

Sure in our society she'd need to visit a psychologist but in her world I think her actions are reasoned...somewhat

SHe's also a child, alone in a very cruel world, and needs to be somewhat ruthless to survive. I recognize that it's specious to apply modern psychological definitions to a fcitional character in this fictional world. Having said that, i still think Arya is pretty twisted, and becoming more so as time passes.