Arya of House Stark or No One (ADWD SPOILERS)

[Needle]

SHe's also a child, alone in a very cruel world, and needs to be somewhat ruthless to survive. I recognize that it's specious to apply modern psychological definitions to a fcitional character in this fictional world. Having said that, i still think Arya is pretty twisted, and becoming more so as time passes.

That's my girl!

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

Arya has always been one of my favorite characters, and she continues to be.

I think she kills when she needs to save herself, but we have also seen her kill when someone deserves it as set down by some set of rules/laws (as with Dareon. IIRC she killed him for deserting the NW). I also believe she has lied simply to survive.

To me she is still a 'good' character, but she also has shades of grey.

 

[JagLover]

Jag, Arya is my girl, to me there is nothing I can think of that would change that!

If she say wipes out the Freys man woman and child, or kills Tommen and Mycella for being Lannisters?

All i'm saying is that we have had one 'bad' character who has somewhat reedemed himself in Jaime. I would not be surprised if one of the 'good' characters heads the other way, and the prime candidate is Arya

 

[hadd]

If she say wipes out the Freys man woman and child, or kills Tommen and Mycella for being Lannisters?

All i'm saying is that we have had one 'bad' character who has somewhat reedemed himself in Jaime. I would not be surprised if one of the 'good' characters heads the other way, and the prime candidate is Arya

Well, I've always felt the whole concept of the series is that actually no character is as simple as black/white. They all have their dirty little secrets and that bit of "goodness" in them.

 

[Darth Gregor]

Actually I think you make a very good point here. Jaqen didn't do any killing until he "owed" three lives to the Many-Faced God. I'm working from memory here but I believe he told her he wouldn't help her kill anymore than the three lives he owed her. He was refusing to help her escape from Harrenhal because it meant killing more people and that would have been more than three (at the time he only owed her one more life). It wasn't until she named Jaqen as the third life did he relent and kill more people. His life was threatened (like you pointed out) and so he was able to do what he had to do to save himself, and in the process save Arya as well.

This earlier post got me thinking about an inconsistency with The Faceless Men - Or at least with Jaqen H'gar that makes me wonder if he's fully affiliated with the Temple of Black and White.

The Faceless Men in the house of black and white are assassins that only kill when someone gives them a name in the Temple. Arya was reprimanded (by losing her sight early) for killing Dareon for her own purposes.

Jaqen seems to stretch the rules by giving Arya three names to make up for the three lives she spared. In Arya's training in the house of black and white, they never say anything about how someone who spares a life is allowed to select a death - particularly if that name is said outside The Temple.

In addition, when Arya names Jaqen -- as opposed to killing himself, Jaqen kills numerous guards. This seems like a clear violation of the rules in the Temple of Black and White. That is, unless the "death" of Jaqen H'gar is him changing his face to look like someone else. Still, he kills an awful lot of unnamed people before changing his face.

When Jaqen kills Pate, it's so he can replace Pate and infiltrate the Citadel. Its doubtful that Pate's name has been said in The House of Black and White. It seems to me that Jaqen is acting more like a special agent than a servant of The House of Black and White.

I wonder if not all people who are trained in The House of Black and White remain to serve. This would certainly allow Arya to have a nice out. Maybe Jaqen H'gar thought The House of Black and White was a good place for Arya to get her training.

Of course, one problem with this theory, is that The House of Black and White views death as something religious. Still, I doubt they'd be thrilled to train people who go about killing for other purposes...

 

[Needle]

Well, I've always felt the whole concept of the series is that actually no character is as simple as black/white. They all have their dirty little secrets and that bit of "goodness" in them.

This is absolutely true hadd, especially so when we are speaking of children, which Arya is, or was at the beginning anyway. Of the young generation the only one I can think of who was really "bad" was Joffery, yet even he gets an iota of understanding as he was shaped, both intentionally and unintentionally by Cersei, and by a "father" who had no time or love for him.

If she say wipes out the Freys man woman and child, or kills Tommen and Mycella for being Lannisters?

All i'm saying is that we have had one 'bad' character who has somewhat reedemed himself in Jaime. I would not be surprised if one of the 'good' characters heads the other way, and the prime candidate is Arya

Let's just say I don't foresee GRRM making her that bad ( Tommen and Mrycella)! But yes I would still love her!

As to the Freys, there are what half a dozen out of hundreds that are worth a damn, so yea, as Lord Manderly said "They would just have grown up to be Freys."

 

[viZion]

Let's just say I don't foresee GRRM making her that bad ( Tommen and Mrycella)! But yes I would still love her!

This is going to sound weird but I don't think GRRM can "make" Arya into anything. She's a character with a life of her own and is going go her own way no matter what. And right now, she's on a very dark path. Remember, she's being trained to KILL. To murder. One of the central themes of this book is that it's not really possible to define "good" or "bad" because it all depends on your perspective. Arya is going to murder people who aren't "bad" no matter what GRRM wants.

I suspect she's a very easy character for him to write. He's "making" Jon and Dany into things but Arya is one of the few characters that he doesn't have push and prod.

Arya is probably my favorite character, too, but I agree with Imp on this one. She's nuts!

 

[JagLover]

The Faceless Men in the house of black and white are assassins that only kill when someone gives them a name in the Temple. Arya was reprimanded (by losing her sight early) for killing Dareon for her own purposes.

I viewed that as a reward, to enter the next stage of her training, rather than as a punishment.

As to the real agenda of the Temple and how it operates they won't have told Arya IMO at this stage of her training.

 

[Needle]

This is going to sound weird but I don't think GRRM can "make" Arya into anything. She's a character with a life of her own and is going go her own way no matter what. And right now, she's on a very dark path. Remember, she's being trained to KILL. To murder. One of the central themes of this book is that it's not really possible to define "good" or "bad" because it all depends on your perspective. Arya is going to murder people who aren't "bad" no matter what GRRM wants.

I suspect she's a very easy character for him to write. He's "making" Jon and Dany into things but Arya is one of the few characters that he doesn't have push and prod.

Arya is probably my favorite character, too, but I agree with Imp on this one. She's nuts!

I agree with you viZion, Steven King has said (and I have written just for my own self a few stories and agree) that some characters just do stuff! You are not in charge, you didn't make them do anything, they just went and did it!

And yes, she is nuts! But I like that in a girl!

 

[Ursa major]

An author can make a character do anything; making a believable character do anything (and in a believable way) is a different matter entirely.

So GRRM is stuck with the Arya he's already created and she will react, and otherwise behave, as only Arya can and would.


I wouldn't call Arya mad, exactly, but she has been greatly affected by what she's had to experience. What she has been able to do - something not allowed to many characters, however powerful they seem - is to act out her desires. She wanted to be a fighter and that's what she's become. Contrast this unlikely ambition to that of Sansa, who just wanted to be a princess/queen, something not impossible given her looks and dynastic position. Sansa may be heading that way again - but with Littlefinger around, I wouldn't bet on it - while Arya is a fighter and is being trained to become an even better wielder of instruments of death.

 

[The Imp]

I viewed that as a reward, to enter the next stage of her training, rather than as a punishment.

As to the real agenda of the Temple and how it operates they won't have told Arya IMO at this stage of her training.

I agree. it seems clear that being 'blinded' is part of the training of FM, and that she may very well have been rewarded for killing rather than punished 9as you said).

 

[Tansy]

I believe killing Dareon elevated her to the next level of training, if didn't matter she killed for the wrong reasons she made her fist kill and set her path, the next phase of becoming a faceless man is to work without all senses, I feel she will have to work deaf soon, they are trying to train her to use what she has to achieve her goal, if you are in a dark room you have to rely on other senses or if its noisy you have to do without hearing etc, A super assassin has to seem unbeatable, she's gonna receive some kick ass training, if at the end she can leave Arya Stark behind and become a faceless man we shall have to see, I don't believe she can.

But then I think the kindly old man may just know this and be training her anyway on the off chance or with prior warning of what she will do with her knowledge

 

[Delran Stark]

Arya may take other names but she will always be Arya Stark of Winterfell. She will never abandon her list or her beliefs, no matter what. And I think the kindly old man knows that. What I can't figure is why they still train her.

 

[Koopa]

I'm not sure if i already mentioned this but unless the connection between her and nymeria is fully severed her roots will remain. She remains at heart Arya of house Stark.

 

[Ursa major]

What I can't figure is why they still train her.

Perhaps they think they will gain enough value, by what she will do for them, to offset their costs and efforts in training her. Ensuring that will probably require them to make good use of her skills during training and soon after**, before she leaves them (permanently or otherwise) to the tick the names off her list.



** - When she's possibly a near-unique asset, given her age. (This will depend on how good Faceless Men are at disguising themselves as children/young adults, I would guess.)

 

[hadd]

Arya may take other names but she will always be Arya Stark of Winterfell. She will never abandon her list or her beliefs, no matter what. And I think the kindly old man knows that. What I can't figure is why they still train her.

Perhaps their god has a plan involving Arya Stark of Winterfell.
That plan might not be making her a loyal servant of the house of white&black but it might involve training Arya to kill someone, someone only she could kill.

 

[The Imp]

Perhaps their god has a plan involving Arya Stark of Winterfell.
That plan might not be making her a loyal servant of the house of white&black but it might involve training Arya to kill someone, someone only she could kill.

The name Bran popped into my head after reading your post. Sheer lunacy, in all liklihood.

 

[JagLover]

A girl of 12/13 could probably get many places one of their normal 'faceless' men couldn't reach, and not attract a second look.

She could certainly earn her keep without ever really becoming one of them.

 

[Timba]

In my efforts to read through this forum (I'll never finish) I of course decided to focus a bit on my favorite characters.

Arya is far and away my favorite and I agee with Needle "she is my girl." My sense is she will never forget being Arya of House Stark and will return to that role with a vengence.
My hope is she reconnects with her direwolf.
My belief is the people on her list are in the deep stuff if they are still alive when she gets back!
I also don't think she is as evil as some seem to believe. She has done what she needed to do to stay alive which is exactly how 99.9% of the people one could classify as "survivor" would behave, real life or fiction. I liked her from the moment she was introduced to us and this became locked into "she's my girl" when she started walking around the keep on her hands. I simply love her and I can't wait for more.

 

[garion77]

As long as Arya have her connection with Nymeryia, she can never become no one...

And have anyone thought of the implication of a warg becoming a faceless man? Could you imagine all the ways you could kill someone?