new Crackpot Theory- The Faceless Men

[The Imp]

I've often thought that Varys is a Faceless Man. I've never completely bought into his backstory, and after 5 books I still find it implausible that he could rise from street urchin to one of the most powerful men in Westeros. I've often thought that Varys' disguises were too good, given what he had to work with (makeup, etc) and that he just always seemed to know too much, even given his network of "little birds". I've said in previous posts that I thought Varys was a Faceless man. I also now question illyrio's enourmous waelth being only the result of being a "cheesemonger".

A couple of things seem pretty certain to me-

1= The actions of the FM at the Citadel were ordered by someone other than that FM, and whoever ordered his "job" has an agenda that is greater than just getting infiormation locked away there.

2- Jaqan H'ghar was not in King's landing because he commttied a crime, got caught and ended up in a dungeon cell. He was sent there on a job.

3- Someone with a very large agenda wanted balon greyjoy dead and paid dearly to get that done and have it look like an accident.

Whom do these FM answer to? Who gives the orders? Who gets the money?

It has been said that hiring a Faceless Man to kill Dany would have cost what it would cost to hire an army. i'd guess that killing Baoln Greyjoy wasn't cheap either.

Which leads me back to where i started. My theory is that Varys is the "head" of the Faceless Men, which may, in fact, turn out to be slightly different than the people we have at the house of Black and White. Maybe the FM are the "soldiers' of the Many Faced God, but my theory is that Varys controls the FM and is using the money to fund his political agenda.

Very curious to see how this goes over

 

[JagLover]

In terms of Balon Greyjoy's death his brother seems a far more likely candidate given that he arrived a few days later.

In terms of Varys he is far more formidable IMO than we were led to believe for most of the books (until the epilogue of ADWD). I return to the end of ASOS when Jaime thought he had intimated Varys into letting Tyrion go, and Tyrion thought he had coerced him into telling him the way to his father's room. They were following his agenda, not theirs.

As to him being a faceless man, that does seem more unlikely.

In terms of the faceless men themselves and their own agenda I suspect they may prove a counterweight to the priests of the red god, and may in fact be in league with the 'others'. Hence why I said on the Arya thread that we may be seeing a 'good' character switch over to the otherside.

 

[Needle]

Gonna have to think this through before I say too much but to a few of your points:

I agree with your bases here, have long thought Varys was a faceless man, as you said, his disguises are way too good and he knows too much. Unless everyone in the kingdom is one of his "little birds" there is no way for him hear every thing he does if he is only who he says he is.

Jaqan H'ghar was in that cell on purpose (Arya maybe, still unsure about that.) His purpose at the Citadel is bigger than it looks for sure.

Balon is the part I must think about! Don't know about this. Sometimes the obvious choice (Euron) is the right one, and accidents do happen (granted not very often especially in ASoIaF).

Someone has to be leading the FM, it could indeed be Varys. I have the same questions about the temple of Rhallor, slaves leading slaves, I just don't think so.

 

[The Imp]

In terms of Balon Greyjoy's death his brother seems a far more likely candidate given that he arrived a few days later.

In terms of Varys he is far more formidable IMO than we were led to believe for most of the books (until the epilogue of ADWD). I return to the end of ASOS when Jaime thought he had intimated Varys into letting Tyrion go, and Tyrion thought he had coerced him into telling him the way to his father's room. They were following his agenda, not theirs.

As to him being a faceless man, that does seem more unlikely.

In terms of the faceless men themselves and their own agenda I suspect they may prove a counterweight to the priests of the red god, and may in fact be in league with the 'others'. Hence why I said on the Arya thread that we may be seeing a 'good' character switch over to the otherside.

My thought was that Euron hired the FM to kill Balon. His involvement is supported by a vision

I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings

Since we know that Euron wasn't yet at the iron Isles when balon died, the implication would be that a FM ebing controlled by Euron killed Balon. Again, this wasn't a cheap kill. Who got the money?

 

[Ol' Pookey]

I don’t think that Varys is a Faceless Man only because Shae quickly recognized Varys in his Rugen (I think) disguise. If I remember correctly Varys was quite surprised by this. This alone isn’t enough to disprove your theory, but it seems that if Varys was a FM his disguises would be foolproof. Also, doesn’t Varys despise magic because of the way he was chopped?

 

[Ursa major]

Also, doesn’t Varys despise magic because of the way he was chopped?

So he says....

I don’t think that Varys is a Faceless Man only because Shae quickly recognized Varys in his Rugen (I think) disguise. If I remember correctly Varys was quite surprised by this. This alone isn’t enough to disprove your theory, but it seems that if Varys was a FM his disguises would be foolproof.

Though wasn't the disguise though which Shae was able to see one that Varys was about to discard? He couldn't use the more magical Faceless Men techniques simply because, ironically, a perfect disguise would have revealed what he was when he revealed himself as Varys.

I wouldn't put it past the old trickster to have emphasized his gait, to make sure of Shae's realisation. (If I'm recalling correctly - which is a bit of a leap of faith on my part - Shae recognised Varys by the way he was walking.)



Oh, and Welcome to the Chrons, Ol' Pookey!

 

[The Imp]

I don’t think that Varys is a Faceless Man only because Shae quickly recognized Varys in his Rugen (I think) disguise. If I remember correctly Varys was quite surprised by this. This alone isn’t enough to disprove your theory, but it seems that if Varys was a FM his disguises would be foolproof. Also, doesn’t Varys despise magic because of the way he was chopped?

You make a good point about Shae, but I stand by what I said because of the whole financial thing and his ties to illyrio. It may be that he might not actually be a FM but still runs them. As for magic, i'll beleive that Varys is a eunuch when someone sees him naked, minus his genitals. I don't think that a lot of what he says can be believed, and it would actually be brilliant to pick the 'cover" of a eunuch in a world dominated by testosterone.

 

[The Imp]

So he says....



Though wasn't the disguise though which Shae was able to see one that Varys was about to discard? He couldn't use the more magical Faceless Men techniques simply because, ironically, a perfect disguise would have revealed what he was when he revealed himself as Varys.

I wouldn't put it past the old trickster to have emphasized his gait, to make sure of Shae's realisation. (If I'm recalling correctly - which is a bit of a leap of faith on my part - Shae recognised Varys by the way he was walking.)



Oh, and Welcome to the Chrons, Ol' Pookey!

Ursa, this is the passage

Behind her stood one of the begging brothers, a portly man in
filthy patched robes, his bare feet crusty with dirt, a bowl hung
about his neck on a leather thong where a septon would have worn
a crystal. The smell of him would have gagged a rat.
"Lord Varys has come to see you," Shae announced.
The begging brother blinked at her, astonished. Tyrion laughed.
"To be sure. How is it you knew him when I did not?"
She shrugged. "It's still him. Only dressed different."
"A different look, a different smell, a different way of walking,"
said Tyrion. "Most men would be deceived."
"And most women, maybe. But not whores. A whore learns to see
the man, not his garb, or she turns up dead in an alley."
Varys looked pained, and not because of the false scabs on his feet.

It's not clear that she saw him walking, as he was behind her when he arrived. I think it's more likely that she had seen him in that disguise before and was covering that fact up.

 

[dragonstone]

A little off topic, but since imp mentioned Illyrio above - anyone noticed that Illyrio has a finger in almost every Royal pie in Westeros? He is connected to Dany through the dragon eggs he gave her, the hospitality at the beginning of the series and the ships and bodyguards he sent, Stannis through Salladhor Saan who seems to work for him or something (his ships are his) and Aegon through Varys. Interestingly all those three have Targ blood in them.

 

[The Imp]

A little off topic, but since imp mentioned Illyrio above - anyone noticed that Illyrio has a finger in almost every Royal pie in Westeros? He is connected to Dany through the dragon eggs he gave her, the hospitality at the beginning of the series and the ships and bodyguards he sent, Stannis through Salladhor Saan who seems to work for him or something (his ships are his) and Aegon through Varys. Interestingly all those three have Targ blood in them.

I have believed that Varys and Illyrio are THE major players of The Game of thrones ever since Arya overhead their conversation in the bowels of The Red Keep. Cersei has thought she has been a player, but she has been mainpulated at every turn, Littlefinger is a player, but not on the scale of varys/illyrio. Doran Martell COULD be a player but for geography, but i guess it's been goegraphy that has kept his kingdom safe. I think the Tyrells will fall with the Lannisters (what's left of them). I don't see any of the iron born being major players any time soon, although they still have a major part to play. Stannis is a piece rather than a pleyr. The Starks are still interesting, as Sansa has a great teacher, and jon has learned a lot being LC.

 

[Ursa major]

It's not clear that she saw him walking, as he was behind her when he arrived. I think it's more likely that she had seen him in that disguise before and was covering that fact up.

Thanks, TI.

I knew that walking had been mentioned, but not that it had been used in the opposite sense to what I remembered. (Damn you, flaky memory banks!)

And I think you're right about how she knew it was Varys and her use of a quick excuse.

And also about Varys and Illyrio. Littlefinger is clever and adept, but I don't think his schemes go beyond placing himself at the centre of power in Westeros, whereas Varys and Illyrio are playing for bigger, and loner-lasting, stakes.


.

 

[dragonstone]

The Starks are still interesting, as Sansa has a great teacher

Just on Sansa. I always thought she was stupid right up to AFFC, now I realise she's simply a good learner and will play whatever game she's taught to play perfectly. The only teacher she ever had was her septa who taught her manners. She now has littlefinger as her teacher and I've a feeling that one day she may surpass him and ultimately that will be his downfall... (If that isn't clear I think Sansa will kill Littlefinger when she figures out that it was he who caused her father's death or when he becomes no longer politically useful to her)

 

[The Imp]

Just on Sansa. I always thought she was stupid right up to AFFC, now I realise she's simply a good learner and will play whatever game she's taught to play perfectly. The only teacher she ever had was her septa who taught her manners. She now has littlefinger as her teacher and I've a feeling that one day she may surpass him and ultimately that will be his downfall... (If that isn't clear I think Sansa will kill Littlefinger when she figures out that it was he who caused her father's death or when he becomes no longer politically useful to her)

I agree, although Sansa certainly didn't act like she was the crispest chip in the bag throughout the whole betrothed to Joffrey period. Maybe we can chalk it up to being naive, but she basically got Ned killed because of her stupidity. It really wasn't until she became Alayne that she blossomed. I guess she has become less a Stark and more a Tully.

 

[3EyedCrowsEye]

What about the Bank of Bravvos? Maybe they're hiring FM to take certain people out (against the North it would seem) to restore order to the realm so they can finally get paid. I'm going to have to go back and read some more about the Bank of Bravvos to make any rational theories but this gets me thinking.

 

[Ursa major]

If you mean that you suspect the motives of Tycho Nestoris, 3ECE, then I think you're probably right to do so.

 

[LittleStar]

Just a point about varys' cover being blown by Shae... I can't recall exactly, and don't have the latest book to confirm, but wasn't it said somewhere that the disguises aren't foolproof, just most people get fooled... I don't recall if this was the FM disguises, or if it was Mel's glamour... (in the latter case, is it such a stretch that varys would have access, in some form, to Rhyllor's magic?)

Having said that, the passage seems to suggest it's a conventional disguise... ...or is it only conventional once tyrion knows it's him??

With regards to the FM as a whole, I don't see any need for them to be such big players... Ok they have Arya in their grip, teaching her all she needs to know for whatever purpose is intended for her (which after reading a few other topics here, I think it's to be Jon's Nissa Nissa, then to live on in nymeria with her pack, maybe savage cersei for a bit of revenge)
but apart from her, what do we know about them... They have in the past seemingly instigated a revolution, no reason to suspect anything like this to happen again, there was a distinct need for it to occur at the time... There is a FM roaming around westeros, I think it's well grounded that he's at the citadel. We don't know his plan at all, he could be rogue for all we know. there was evidently some FM involvement with halons death, the prophecies seem to be right all other times... But that could have bee jaqan on his way to the citadel, no reason to be anew FM. (I don't know about the timings though)

I had planned this post to include many more things, but it occurs to me that, without taking, sometimes vast, leaps of faith, we don't know anything more about the FM and their agenda... We have, as far as I know, no link between them and varys, illyrio, stannis or anyone in westeros, but for jaqan... Maybe a link with the iron bank, but only because they are situated in the same city...

So while an very interesting and fun piece if the ice and fire mythos, I see no reason that they need to be involved in any of the political machinations of the characters... They all seem to be doing fine by themselves. (who needs to pay a whole countries ransom to kill someone, when you can get his utterly besotted wife to do it for a night of rotund passion eh )

 

[The Imp]

Just a point about varys' cover being blown by Shae... I can't recall exactly, and don't have the latest book to confirm, but wasn't it said somewhere that the disguises aren't foolproof, just most people get fooled... I don't recall if this was the FM disguises, or if it was Mel's glamour... (in the latter case, is it such a stretch that varys would have access, in some form, to Rhyllor's magic?)

Having said that, the passage seems to suggest it's a conventional disguise... ...or is it only conventional once tyrion knows it's him??

With regards to the FM as a whole, I don't see any need for them to be such big players... Ok they have Arya in their grip, teaching her all she needs to know for whatever purpose is intended for her (which after reading a few other topics here, I think it's to be Jon's Nissa Nissa, then to live on in nymeria with her pack, maybe savage cersei for a bit of revenge)
but apart from her, what do we know about them... They have in the past seemingly instigated a revolution, no reason to suspect anything like this to happen again, there was a distinct need for it to occur at the time... There is a FM roaming around westeros, I think it's well grounded that he's at the citadel. We don't know his plan at all, he could be rogue for all we know. there was evidently some FM involvement with halons death, the prophecies seem to be right all other times... But that could have bee jaqan on his way to the citadel, no reason to be anew FM. (I don't know about the timings though)

I had planned this post to include many more things, but it occurs to me that, without taking, sometimes vast, leaps of faith, we don't know anything more about the FM and their agenda... We have, as far as I know, no link between them and varys, illyrio, stannis or anyone in westeros, but for jaqan... Maybe a link with the iron bank, but only because they are situated in the same city...

So while an very interesting and fun piece if the ice and fire mythos, I see no reason that they need to be involved in any of the political machinations of the characters... They all seem to be doing fine by themselves. (who needs to pay a whole countries ransom to kill someone, when you can get his utterly besotted wife to do it for a night of rotund passion eh )

You make some good points, but I stand by my OP

I don't think it's ever been shown that a FM's "disguise" can be seen through. Glamor's, however, are not so foolproof.

I'll go back to my original quesdtion. How does one hire a FM, and who gets the money when the deed is done? The analogy I'll make now is that of the Irish Reepublican Army, which had a military wing and a political wing. I think the FM are the "military" wing of a group iof powerful men who are using the proceeds of assassinations to fund a revolution.

 

[tegid]

In terms of the faceless men themselves and their own agenda I suspect they may prove a counterweight to the priests of the red god, and may in fact be in league with the 'others'. Hence why I said on the Arya thread that we may be seeing a 'good' character switch over to the otherside.

I like this theory. Maybe that's why Jaqen was in the black cells: he wanted to be taken to the Wall!

Not so sure about Arya though, since she retains some of her personality (Needle, the prayer, etc)

(I actually registered just to say this)

 

[Dante DiBenedetto]

For some completely misguided reason, I actually believe Varys when he says that he's always looking out for what is best for Westeros. I don't think he's the head, or even a player of the Faceless Men cult.

It would be my guess that he's working with the Cheesemonger to bring back the Targs as a way to establish a new age of peace for Westeros. A united and peaceful Westeros is a profitable one, after all.

Interesting theory, nonetheless.

 

[juleska]

I like this theory. Maybe that's why Jaqen was in the black cells: he wanted to be taken to the Wall!

Not so sure about Arya though, since she retains some of her personality (Needle, the prayer, etc)

(I actually registered just to say this)

Welcome to the Chrons, tegid!

I'm currently doing a re-read of the entire series to date and I'm about to complete AFFC. On a re-read, I do think Varys has some association with the Faceless Men, but I don't think he completed his training. If anything he's setting the precedent for Arya.