new Crackpot Theory- The Faceless Men

[The Imp]

Welcome to the Chrons, tegid!

I'm currently doing a re-read of the entire series to date and I'm about to complete AFFC. On a re-read, I do think Varys has some association with the Faceless Men, but I don't think he completed his training. If anything he's setting the precedent for Arya.

What leads you to believe that he didn't complete his training?

 

[A-roc]

I am standing by Eulalia's theory about Illyrio and Varys as brother-in-laws through Serra http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/533674-varys-whats-his-motivation-mild-adwd-spoilers-3.html

Basically it says Illryio is the father and Varys is the uncle of Aegon and they are trying to sit him on the Iron Throne. Now that is not exclusive to running TFM, but more likely Illyrio/Varys are just using their services.

I recall a post about a few other members of THoBaW coming and going occasionally and wasn't an individual matching Illyrio description among them? Anybody know that thread off-hand? If Illyrio was a visitor, it could mean customer or FM or owner. If Illyrio was one of the visitor to THoBaW, my money would be on him as a customer rather than owner. He's too fat to disguise himself and work as a FM likely and I think TFM's religion is at odds with what Illryio/Varys are trying to accomplish, i.e., restore a Targ to the throne. Recall the many faced god was borne out of hatred for slavers/dragon owners.

I think TFM are what they are: just a bunch of hired, magical assassins with some nut-job religion justifying their murder for hire. If the timing works out, perhaps Illyrio's visit was to to hire a FM (Jaqen) to break into the Citadel to steal the book on how to kill dragons, so once Aegon and Dany share the throne, Illyrio and Varys can kill/control the dragons allowing them to rule all of Westoros.

 

[juleska]

What leads you to believe that he didn't complete his training?

His disguises aren't foolproof. He relies on other methods (the tunnels in the walls) to sneak around and get the information he requires. He talks and interacts more with other people than the other FM we have met or know about through the House of Black & White. And it doesn't seem to be in the program for the FM to live their entire lives under a single pseudonym / disguise, so it doesn't make sense that he would wear the mantle of a plump old eunuch for his entire career. I think he spent some time in the HBW, and I think he learned some skills there, but like Arya I don't think he ever let go of who or what he really was, and ultimately decided the level of commitment to become a true FM was just more than he wished to give.

 

[The Imp]

His disguises aren't foolproof. He relies on other methods (the tunnels in the walls) to sneak around and get the information he requires. He talks and interacts more with other people than the other FM we have met or know about through the House of Black & White. And it doesn't seem to be in the program for the FM to live their entire lives under a single pseudonym / disguise, so it doesn't make sense that he would wear the mantle of a plump old eunuch for his entire career. I think he spent some time in the HBW, and I think he learned some skills there, but like Arya I don't think he ever let go of who or what he really was, and ultimately decided the level of commitment to become a true FM was just more than he wished to give.

You made some fair points, given the limited window we have into Varys' character. I still believe that he has a solid connection with the FM, for the reasons I stated earlier. All we need now is a Varys POV (hopefully not an epilogue or prologue )

 

[kshRox]

A couple of things seem pretty certain to me-

1= The actions of the FM at the Citadel were ordered by someone other than that FM, and whoever ordered his "job" has an agenda that is greater than just getting infiormation locked away there.

2- Jaqan H'ghar was not in King's landing because he commttied a crime, got caught and ended up in a dungeon cell. He was sent there on a job.

I think you give Martin too much credit.
I think the FM was a plot device thrown in to get Ayra out of Harrenhall.

3- Someone with a very large agenda wanted balon greyjoy dead and paid dearly to get that done and have it look like an accident.

I think Greyjoy is dead because Martin wanted to end that storyline. Characters come and go like a soap opera rather than a cohesive storyline. The series started out great but has degraded into titilation and pages upon pages of text which go nowhere and really don't add much to the story.

Whom do these FM answer to? Who gives the orders? Who gets the money?

It has been said that hiring a Faceless Man to kill Dany would have cost what it would cost to hire an army. i'd guess that killing Baoln Greyjoy wasn't cheap either.

Which leads me back to where i started. My theory is that Varys is the "head" of the Faceless Men, which may, in fact, turn out to be slightly different than the people we have at the house of Black and White. Maybe the FM are the "soldiers' of the Many Faced God, but my theory is that Varys controls the FM and is using the money to fund his political agenda.

Very curious to see how this goes over

You may be right and the big reveal is Varys as the hidden puppet-master pulling the strings all along but again - feels like a kludge rather than a logical conclusion drawn from the primary storyline.

 

[Mesanna]

I think you give Martin too much credit.
I think the FM was a plot device thrown in to get Ayra out of Harrenhall.

And, with respect, I feel you may not be giving him enough.

The Faceless Men were first mentioned early on in Game of Thrones, when Robert discussed sending an assassin after Dany. They're mentioned by characters a couple of times in Clash. Then we get Arya's story in Storm, and her whole plotline in Feast/Dance. I don't think the Faceless Men could be dismissed as a throwaway plot device when they're discussed in the first book, and our knowledge of them has been built upon in every subsequent book. I believe GRRM had a good idea from the start of what he wanted to do with them.

I think Greyjoy is dead because Martin wanted to end that storyline. Characters come and go like a soap opera rather than a cohesive storyline. The series started out great but has degraded into titilation and pages upon pages of text which go nowhere and really don't add much to the story.

I think if GRRM had wanted to end the Iron Islanders' story, he'd have been better off leaving Balon Greyjoy alive. His death has really propelled the Greyjoy family out into the world and right into the middle of the story.

I'm sorry you're not enjoying the story any more, and I would agree that it has wandered a little further than I may have preferred, but I can't agree with your comments that GRRM is just making it up as he goes along. That's not my impression at all.

 

[kshRox]

And, with respect, I feel you may not be giving him enough.

The Faceless Men were first mentioned early on in Game of Thrones, when Robert discussed sending an assassin after Dany. They're mentioned by characters a couple of times in Clash. Then we get Arya's story in Storm, and her whole plotline in Feast/Dance. I don't think the Faceless Men could be dismissed as a throwaway plot device when they're discussed in the first book, and our knowledge of them has been built upon in every subsequent book. I believe GRRM had a good idea from the start of what he wanted to do with them.

I think if GRRM had wanted to end the Iron Islanders' story, he'd have been better off leaving Balon Greyjoy alive. His death has really propelled the Greyjoy family out into the world and right into the middle of the story.

I'm sorry you're not enjoying the story any more, and I would agree that it has wandered a little further than I may have preferred, but I can't agree with your comments that GRRM is just making it up as he goes along. That's not my impression at all.

You may absolutely be right and it would not be the first time I've been wrong!

I only speak for my own opinion which is definitely in the minority.

The last book reminded me of WoT and I was a bit nonplussed by the fragmented presentation and cul-de-sacs in the storyline. I was left wondering the purpose of many twists and characters other than to fill pages.

Same goes for the depraved violence, sex and misogyny which seemed to creep beyond proportion to the rustic environment into gratuitous titillation.

 

[Mesanna]

Oh, I'm not saying you're wrong, just that my opinion differs! But this forum would be no fun if we all felt the same. (And personally, I'm not too fond of the Iron Islanders either, though Asha's not so bad, and I'd happy if most of them sunk into the sea and were never heard of again!

I accept that there have been a few chapters that seem to contribute little to the story, but I also think we shouldn't judge GRRM until the series is finished. Take the example of the Faceless Men. That discussion between Robert's Council may not have seemed particularly important at the time, but by the time you get to Book Three you see its significance. It's possible that what seems like extraneous padding right now might actually become important later on. Or it may not!

I can understand the WoT comparison completely and I would hate for that to happen to ASOIAF (though Brandon's really pulled it all together), but my belief is that things are moving again by the end of Dance and I have high hopes for the next book.

On the sex and violence, I suppose everyone has their comfort level. I found some of the scenes in Storm with the Mountain's guys to be the worst but that was to make a point about war, so although they were a bit sickening I don't personally feel they were gratuitous. But, of course, your mileage may vary.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I can't agree with your comments that GRRM is just making it up as he goes along. That's not my impression at all.

If he isn't, who is?

i get what you mean though. GRRM definately had some set ideas about where the stroy would and will go, but I do believe that he gets sidetracked into some sub-plots much more than he intended. Though as far as I am concerned, it's just good writing. I loved Dance and had no complaints about it. If it was the finale, then I would have been pissed, but I know there is more coming and Dance really helped to get more insight into many key players.

it doesn't seem to be in the program for the FM to live their entire lives under a single pseudonym / disguise, so it doesn't make sense that he would wear the mantle of a plump old eunuch for his entire career.

we simply can't confirm or deny this. If it was in their best interest, I think the faceless men have the disciplin to commit to a long-term post. We also don't know how many other faces Varys wore. We know he also played the part of the jailor. I could be wrong, but I got the impression that that was more than just a throwaway disguise he used once or twice. Didn't people in the keep know him by name and he had a sleeping quarter and everything (if I remember correctly). He might have spent more time as a jailor than we know, perhaps working with Jaqen.

As for the reliability of the disguise that Shae saw through, If varys was going to visit tyrion, he couldn't use a disguise so good that Tyrion would be very suprised. If varys magic-ed his face away right in front of Trion, that would have given too much away.

 

[falsepod]

Sorry this is a necro. I signed up just to respond to Imp in his op.

Your theory clicked something for me (sorry if someone else has noticed this before me). When Tyrion visits Varys in his chambers (I think its during AFFC?) he makes note of the fact that Varys sleeps on a stone bed. We know from Arya that the FM at the House of Black and White sleep on stone beds (granted she uses bundles of rags to soften it up). We all know how precise Martin is with his writing. Thats clearly not a mistake. Granted he covers it under the context of Tyrion goes on to shag Shae on said stone bed but I think Martin was clearly making a connection between Varys and the FM with that little tidbit. Just a thought

 

[The Imp]

Sorry this is a necro. I signed up just to respond to Imp in his op.

Your theory clicked something for me (sorry if someone else has noticed this before me). When Tyrion visits Varys in his chambers (I think its during AFFC?) he makes note of the fact that Varys sleeps on a stone bed. We know from Arya that the FM at the House of Black and White sleep on stone beds (granted she uses bundles of rags to soften it up). We all know how precise Martin is with his writing. Thats clearly not a mistake. Granted he covers it under the context of Tyrion goes on to shag Shae on said stone bed but I think Martin was clearly making a connection between Varys and the FM with that little tidbit. Just a thought

Welcome to the forum I am honored that you started an account just to respond to my OP. Your point about the stone bed is spot on. GRRM does not throw things such as that little tidbit in by mistake, and actually, one could make the argument that he delights in throwing in those little hints, connections, foreshadowings, prophecies, etc.

 

[juleska]

Sorry this is a necro. I signed up just to respond to Imp in his op.

Your theory clicked something for me (sorry if someone else has noticed this before me). When Tyrion visits Varys in his chambers (I think its during AFFC?) he makes note of the fact that Varys sleeps on a stone bed. We know from Arya that the FM at the House of Black and White sleep on stone beds (granted she uses bundles of rags to soften it up). We all know how precise Martin is with his writing. Thats clearly not a mistake. Granted he covers it under the context of Tyrion goes on to shag Shae on said stone bed but I think Martin was clearly making a connection between Varys and the FM with that little tidbit. Just a thought

Excellent observation. I totally missed that.

So do you think Varys is himself a Faceless Man or is he someone who spent time in training there but did not complete the program?

 

[falsepod]

Excellent observation. I totally missed that.

So do you think Varys is himself a Faceless Man or is he someone who spent time in training there but did not complete the program?

As to that I'll be honest I have no idea. I think all we can surmise at the moment is Varys is a strange character that has connections with the Faceless Men and the Targaryans. The possibilities are cool though. If he is an FM then now he's fled Kings Landing he could show up again in WOW and we wouldn't even know that he was Varys.

 

[The Imp]

As to that I'll be honest I have no idea. I think all we can surmise at the moment is Varys is a strange character that has connections with the Faceless Men and the Targaryans. The possibilities are cool though. If he is an FM then now he's fled Kings Landing he could show up again in WOW and we wouldn't even know that he was Varys.

I'll predict that Varys will be a POV character in tWoW Wouldn't THAT be interesting

 

[viZion]

I'll predict that Varys will be a POV character in tWoW Wouldn't THAT be interesting

Aren't Varys and Littlefinger the two characters that GRRM has said can never be POVs because they know too much?

 

[The Imp]

Aren't Varys and Littlefinger the two characters that GRRM has said can never be POVs because they know too much?

If that's true, and I see no reason to doubt you, my prediction will not come to pass

 

[juleska]

If that's true, and I see no reason to doubt you, my prediction will not come to pass

Right, and if your theory is correct that he really is a bonafide FM, then he could be a POV character of another person entirely. Only thing is that I thought GRRM said no more new POVs. Now what would be a really fascinating twist is if Nouveaus Varys had an Epilogue or Prologue POV, where he was killer, and not the victim.

 

[thatollie]

For some reason, I have always thought that Syrio and Jaqan were the same person.

 

[juleska]

For some reason, I have always thought that Syrio and Jaqan were the same person.

I think most of us are on board with the idea of Syrio being a FM, and that he is still alive. It makes perfect sense that he and Jaqan are the same person. After all, the first time we hear anything about Jaqan is shortly after Syrio is left fighting off some Lannister clowns and vanishes into thin air. No one seems to know who Arya's dancing master is....how was he recruited for the task in the first place? Could be a fellow FM in KL....gee I wonder who ....called him forth for the task, with the expectation that at some point he would send young Arya to the HoB&W. So when Ned was taken into custody and Arya went on the run, with Yoren sneaking her out of the city, the only way for her recruiter to stay with her was to follow her in the same party. Enter, Stage Right: Jaqan, a strange prisoner who speaks in third person with a penchant for riddles, not unlike a certain dancing master.

This of course begs the question of whether or not the "Master Plan" has always been for Arya to make her way to the HoB&W, and if so.....whose the master planner? Because it obviously wasn't Ned.

If Varys is a true FM, this could only be his plan. I must then ask why would Varys care about Arya becoming a super assassin?

Unless he intends to use her to carry out a certain task?

The possibilities are intriguing!

 

[The Imp]

I think most of us are on board with the idea of Syrio being a FM, and that he is still alive. It makes perfect sense that he and Jaqan are the same person. After all, the first time we hear anything about Jaqan is shortly after Syrio is left fighting off some Lannister clowns and vanishes into thin air. No one seems to know who Arya's dancing master is....how was he recruited for the task in the first place? Could be a fellow FM in KL....gee I wonder who ....called him forth for the task, with the expectation that at some point he would send young Arya to the HoB&W. So when Ned was taken into custody and Arya went on the run, with Yoren sneaking her out of the city, the only way for her recruiter to stay with her was to follow her in the same party. Enter, Stage Right: Jaqan, a strange prisoner who speaks in third person with a penchant for riddles, not unlike a certain dancing master.

This of course begs the question of whether or not the "Master Plan" has always been for Arya to make her way to the HoB&W, and if so.....whose the master planner? Because it obviously wasn't Ned.

If Varys is a true FM, this could only be his plan. I must then ask why would Varys care about Arya becoming a super assassin?

Unless he intends to use her to carry out a certain task?

The possibilities are intriguing!

You apparently aren't familiar with my REALLY crackpotty theory about Ned