new Crackpot Theory- The Faceless Men

[Anushka Mokosh]

You apparently aren't familiar with my REALLY crackpotty theory about Ned

Could you possibly link me to that one?

 

[Keebs411]

I think most of us are on board with the idea of Syrio being a FM, and that he is still alive. It makes perfect sense that he and Jaqan are the same person. After all, the first time we hear anything about Jaqan is shortly after Syrio is left fighting off some Lannister clowns and vanishes into thin air. No one seems to know who Arya's dancing master is....how was he recruited for the task in the first place? Could be a fellow FM in KL....gee I wonder who ....called him forth for the task, with the expectation that at some point he would send young Arya to the HoB&W. So when Ned was taken into custody and Arya went on the run, with Yoren sneaking her out of the city, the only way for her recruiter to stay with her was to follow her in the same party. Enter, Stage Right: Jaqan, a strange prisoner who speaks in third person with a penchant for riddles, not unlike a certain dancing master.

This of course begs the question of whether or not the "Master Plan" has always been for Arya to make her way to the HoB&W, and if so.....whose the master planner? Because it obviously wasn't Ned.

If Varys is a true FM, this could only be his plan. I must then ask why would Varys care about Arya becoming a super assassin?

Unless he intends to use her to carry out a certain task?

The possibilities are intriguing!

Just xame to mond but i didnt go and check my book yet, buy didnt varys " find" syrio for Ned? Im not sure but for some reason i think he did and it comes up in conversation between him and Ned. If i am right there is just one more link between varys, syrio and the possivility of the FM connection.

 

[The Imp]

Just xame to mond but i didnt go and check my book yet, buy didnt varys " find" syrio for Ned? Im not sure but for some reason i think he did and it comes up in conversation between him and Ned. If i am right there is just one more link between varys, syrio and the possivility of the FM connection.

I don't remember Varys finding Syrio for Ned, but I'll research it.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

I don't remember Varys finding Syrio for Ned, but I'll research it.

"The man Syrio Forel had come with an excellent reputation,..."

This is what we know of Syrio's appearance. Varys was never mentioned, but we cannot exclude his influence completely.
Notice that Ned didn't say he heard of Syrio or that someone had recommended Syrio, Syrio had come.

 

[The Imp]

"The man Syrio Forel had come with an excellent reputation,..."

This is what we know of Syrio's appearance. Varys was never mentioned, but we cannot exclude his influence completely.
Notice that Ned didn't say he heard of Syrio or that someone had recommended Syrio, Syrio had come.

This is what I found as well, but I'm not sure you can take the words "came with an excellent reputation' to mean that he showed up out of the blue. In fact, I think you'd have to at least infer that there WAS some sort of reference or introduction that was made.

First off, this was ned's little girl that Syrio was to be entrusted with. I think Ned would be suspicious of someone who just showed up and suggested that he tutor his daughter in the ways of "water dancing". To me it seems more likely that Ned knew about Syrio before he got to King's Landing.

Second, lots of people show up at court with lots of stories and lots of schemes to try to get something they aren't entitled to. Why would Ned even TALK to a total stanger who showed up "unannounced"?

Do we know for sure that Varys "referred' Syrio? Of course not, but it makes sense to me that the "excellent repuation" that he showed up with was not self professed, but rather, told to Ned by some third person, in this case, most likely varys.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

This is what I found as well, but I'm not sure you can take the words "came with an excellent reputation' to mean that he showed up out of the blue. In fact, I think you'd have to at least infer that there WAS some sort of reference or introduction that was made.

First off, this was ned's little girl that Syrio was to be entrusted with. I think Ned would be suspicious of someone who just showed up and suggested that he tutor his daughter in the ways of "water dancing". To me it seems more likely that Ned knew about Syrio before he got to King's Landing.

Second, lots of people show up at court with lots of stories and lots of schemes to try to get something they aren't entitled to. Why would Ned even TALK to a total stanger who showed up "unannounced"?

Do we know for sure that Varys "referred' Syrio? Of course not, but it makes sense to me that the "excellent repuation" that he showed up with was not self professed, but rather, told to Ned by some third person, in this case, most likely varys.

The word reputation implies that someone must have spoken on Syrio's behalf true and that he was well known to at least to someone Ned could trust or that he had a really foolproof background story. I don't think that verifying if someone was the First Sword of Braavos would be impossible for the Hand of King. Besides, Ned was searching for someone to teach Arya. It took him three days at most (we know it from Arya's POV that she had her first lesson on the third day after Ned found Needle) to find that person so Syrio must have already been in King's Landing at that time.

Ned also says that he was looking for exactly such a person since Arya's physique is best suited for that particular style. He must have sent someone, say Jory as he is Ned's person of trust, to find a Braavos style teacher in King's Landing. And when you ask around for someone so special, word gets around (to Varys' little birds no doubt) and Syrio could introduce himself to Jory (this is where Varys might have entered this particular sequence of events. His spy network probably notified him of Ned's search so he sends in Syrio or his little birds sent Jory to Syrio). Naturally, a former First Sword of Braavos is the best choice. So Jory and Ned check what Syrio's claims. Probably ask around (again Varys could have had something to do but from the background). After his claims are validated and thoroughly checked, Syrio is hired.

My point was, Syrio might have been sent there by Varys, but I don't think that Varys recommend him to Ned directly. Ned distrusted Varys at that point. Why would Ned trust his daughter to the person who was recommended by someone he distrusts and dislikes? It would be plain stupid (not that Ned didn't do his share of fairly stupid things, but that is only when it comes to honour) and if it were Varys who recommended him, Ned would probably refer to that at the point where he contemplates whether hiring Syrio was a smart thing to do.

 

[The Imp]

The word reputation implies that someone must have spoken on Syrio's behalf true and that he was well known to at least to someone Ned could trust or that he had a really foolproof background story. I don't think that verifying if someone was the First Sword of Braavos would be impossible for the Hand of King. Besides, Ned was searching for someone to teach Arya. It took him three days at most (we know it from Arya's POV that she had her first lesson on the third day after Ned found Needle) to find that person so Syrio must have already been in King's Landing at that time.

Ned also says that he was looking for exactly such a person since Arya's physique is best suited for that particular style. He must have sent someone, say Jory as he is Ned's person of trust, to find a Braavos style teacher in King's Landing. And when you ask around for someone so special, word gets around (to Varys' little birds no doubt) and Syrio could introduce himself to Jory (this is where Varys might have entered this particular sequence of events. His spy network probably notified him of Ned's search so he sends in Syrio or his little birds sent Jory to Syrio). Naturally, a former First Sword of Braavos is the best choice. So Jory and Ned check what Syrio's claims. Probably ask around (again Varys could have had something to do but from the background). After his claims are validated and thoroughly checked, Syrio is hired.

My point was, Syrio might have been sent there by Varys, but I don't think that Varys recommend him to Ned directly. Ned distrusted Varys at that point. Why would Ned trust his daughter to the person who was recommended by someone he distrusts and dislikes? It would be plain stupid (not that Ned didn't do his share of fairly stupid things, but that is only when it comes to honour) and if it were Varys who recommended him, Ned would probably refer to that at the point where he contemplates whether hiring Syrio was a smart thing to do.

Well, I think that Syrio if at least a Faceless Man, and MAYBE is Jaqan, so he was certainly in KL for other reasons, or perhaps this is all part of the same reason. As for trusting or mistrusting Varys, Ned tended to be gullible and varys tends to be convincing. There's lots of proof to support that idea. I could see a conversation taking place, maybe after a small council meeting, where varys asks Ned what is troubling him, Ned mumbles something about Arya being out of control, etc. Varys saying that the sweet child needs focus and he knws of a man newly arrived from braavos who used to be First Sword, etc. etc. I personally think that the FM have had their eye on Arya for a long time, and Syrio was part of that, but obviously, this is all speculative until we get more information from TWoW, etc.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

Well, I think that Syrio if at least a Faceless Man, and MAYBE is Jaqan, so he was certainly in KL for other reasons, or perhaps this is all part of the same reason. As for trusting or mistrusting Varys, Ned tended to be gullible and varys tends to be convincing. There's lots of proof to support that idea. I could see a conversation taking place, maybe after a small council meeting, where varys asks Ned what is troubling him, Ned mumbles something about Arya being out of control, etc. Varys saying that the sweet child needs focus and he knws of a man newly arrived from braavos who used to be First Sword, etc. etc. I personally think that the FM have had their eye on Arya for a long time, and Syrio was part of that, but obviously, this is all speculative until we get more information from TWoW, etc.

I never said he wasn't a FM or that he wasn't Jaqan. That much we agree on. I'm just arguing the fact that Varys recommended him personally as someone stated before.

 

[The Imp]

As I think about it, the more interesting question to me is WHY was Syrio in KL in the first place? Given how early he shows up in aGoT, he would have had to have already been in KL when Ned and family left Winterfell, or left Braavos (assuming he was there) when they did. It's almost impossible to imagine that varys did not know of his presence, given that Varys essentially knows when a mouse farts in the catacombs of the Red Keep, so if there's a connection between varys and Syrio, the next logical step would be to assume that Syrio was sent to Ned by varys.

unless VARYS is Syrio (as a Faceless Man). Hows that for climbing out on a ledge

 

[Needle]

unless VARYS is Syrio (as a Faceless Man). Hows that for climbing out on a ledge

That's not a ledge Imp, that's a tight rope!

 

[Ursa major]

That's a tightrope, allegedly....

 

[juleska]

I don't remember Varys finding Syrio for Ned, but I'll research it.

"The man Syrio Forel had come with an excellent reputation,..."

This is what we know of Syrio's appearance. Varys was never mentioned, but we cannot exclude his influence completely.
Notice that Ned didn't say he heard of Syrio or that someone had recommended Syrio, Syrio had come.

Well it isn't stated explicitly but I think we can safely presume that Varys is the one who recommended Syrio. To put it in context: Ned's the new guy in town. He needs to procure a particular service. So he needs to get a recommendation from someone who knows a lot of the comings and goings of King's Landing, and may be persuaded to not speak too freely of the purpose of this service (Sansa never learned that Arya was learning swordplay, so we can presume Ned did not want this widely discussed).

Now when you're the new guy in King's Landing and you need something that requires a recommendation from someone who knows everyone, and you don't want everybody and their brother to know about it, there's only two people to talk to: Littlefinger and Varys.

Ned doesn't trust Littlefinger any more than he has to (and we all know how that turns out). Naturally he would ask the Spider and implore his discretion.

 

[Keebs411]

Well it isn't stated explicitly but I think we can safely presume that Varys is the one who recommended Syrio. To put it in context: Ned's the new guy in town. He needs to procure a particular service. So he needs to get a recommendation from someone who knows a lot of the comings and goings of King's Landing, and may be persuaded to not speak too freely of the purpose of this service (Sansa never learned that Arya was learning swordplay, so we can presume Ned did not want this widely discussed).

Now when you're the new guy in King's Landing and you need something that requires a recommendation from someone who knows everyone, and you don't want everybody and their brother to know about it, there's only two people to talk to: Littlefinger and Varys.

Ned doesn't trust Littlefinger any more than he has to (and we all know how that turns out). Naturally he would ask the Spider and implore his discretion.

i wanna say some one other then Ned,Syrio and Arya knew about her training going on. Im not sure but i swear i remember some one (who was not the 3 mentioned) asking either her or Ned how her taining was going or if he/she was pleased with the teacher that came to do the training? If im right im also going to assume who ever asked Ned or Arya about it is also the one who gave the recommendation or helped set up the arrangement......

i need to stop lending out my books, they make it hard for me to go back and check things, hmmmph

 

[Reivax26]

To be honest I am bored to tears with half of the POV's anymore. Arya and Sansa are both boring to the point of exhaustion. Bran isn't much better at this point but I am more interested in him than his sisters.

I want to know what is going to happen to Jon Snow and Tyrion, since they are my favorite characters in the books. I also enjoy reading about Jaime and Daenerys. The rest of the pov's feel like nails on a chalkboard when I try to read them. Maybe with the exception of Sam but thats only because I grew up as a fat kid and I hope he survives this crazy story.

My 2 Cents

 

[juleska]

i wanna say some one other then Ned,Syrio and Arya knew about her training going on. Im not sure but i swear i remember some one (who was not the 3 mentioned) asking either her or Ned how her taining was going or if he/she was pleased with the teacher that came to do the training? If im right im also going to assume who ever asked Ned or Arya about it is also the one who gave the recommendation or helped set up the arrangement......

i need to stop lending out my books, they make it hard for me to go back and check things, hmmmph

You know what, I think you're right, and I believe that person is Varys. I'm going to look for the reference now.

 

[clownphoenix]

It seems to me that the North is not a very rich place, despite it's large size. Yes, the Starks have quite a bit of money, but no where near the Lannisters or the other major houses, or so is my opinion based on what I've read. So despite Ned being Hand of the King, it seems rather odd that he could afford to hire the First Sword of Bravos to train his daughter. This leads me to believe that he is indeed associated with FM, and may or may not be Jaqen. It's clear to me they have an interest in Arya. Whether Jaqen's interest is simply because he notices she is a girl convincing people she is a boy, and also not afraid of people she should be, like Biter, is yet to be seen. I'd like to think their interest goes much deeper than that and she is in fact being recruited. It makes sense that FM would recruit, as it takes a special person to be FM.

Back to Varys, I'm undecided on whether or not he is connected to FM, but everyone brings up good points on the subject.

REALLY off-topic, I found my random question while registering strange, but I guess that is to be expected on a .co.uk website, as I'm from the US.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

You make some good points, but I stand by my OP

I don't think it's ever been shown that a FM's "disguise" can be seen through. Glamor's, however, are not so foolproof.

I'll go back to my original quesdtion. How does one hire a FM, and who gets the money when the deed is done? The analogy I'll make now is that of the Irish Reepublican Army, which had a military wing and a political wing. I think the FM are the "military" wing of a group iof powerful men who are using the proceeds of assassinations to fund a revolution.

For my two cents, I think the Bank of Bravos and the Faceless men are the 2 sides to one army. It would explain where the money that people pay to hire a faceless man goes, and also might help to set the prices for assissinations.

Example: I'm not sure if Balon owed any money to the bank of bravos but let's just say he did. He owed X amount of dollars, then someone wants a faceless man to assassinate him. Since dead men don't pay debts, the price to have him assassinated is x+Y (cause you gotta make a profit).

I think the bank of bravos and the FM have alot in common-outside just geographic proximity. They are both non-political units that will either assassinate or lend money to anyone providing their is "return on investment". Through Arya's training we see that faceless men have to deny and leave behind their past in order to become a true faceless man, that means not having any allegience to one side.

I think that, with what we know about the faceless men that to say Varys is one of them or even in league with them, then we have to accept that Varys does not have a political allegiance. He could very well have only the good of the realm at hear (as he has stated) but that doesn't mean he cares what name the king (or queen) has, as long as they are good at being a king. But even then, I don't think the faceless men care about who is the king since they wouldn't be Their king.

Last point- Since we know that a faceless man has infiltrated the citadel and is now desguised as a maester in training, is it a stretch to imagine that sometimes FM take on long term positions? maybe that FMs job wasnt just to get information, but to study and become a measter so that he can infiltrate and become advisor to a high lord, or a king, and thus "advise" them along a course that the faceless men want and, if they don't listen, who would suspect Maester so-and-so of slitting their throats?

 

[Ursa major]

I haven't that much justification for resurrecting this thread, except to say that I've been rewatching season 1 of Game of Thrones and noticed, in episode 8, "The Pointy End", that immediately after a sequence of scenes with Arya and Sansa being persued by Lannister soldiers (including Syrio asking what "we" say to Death), we witness Varys visiting Ned in the cells. Towards the end of this comes the following dialogue:

NED: If that's true, slit my throat and be done with it.

VARYS: Not today, my Lord.
​

It seems an odd thing for Varys to say, and it makes me wonder if it's a bit of a hint as to the true nature of Varys (given that the producers know at least something about how the books are meant to turn out).