Are female characters in Fantasy subservient to their male counterparts?

[Anne Lyle]

Personally I think the "kick-ass" female is a dangerous stereotype - it gives the impression that women ought to be able to defend themselves physically against men, which simply isn't true in the majority of cases. For most ordinary women, the key aspect of self-defence is avoiding dangerous situations, not rushing into them! There's a fine line, IMHO, between empowerment and setting unrealistic expectations...

I make it clear that my young female character is at a serious disadvantage compared to the men around her. I find it more interesting to write, and I think it makes her occasional victories all the sweeter

 

[sabolich]

As mentioned, upper body musculation is not what women excel in, and if you've tried stringing, let alone drawing, a longbow you will understand that bowmen were practically deformed in the shoulders and back getting strong enough to shoot through an entire battle; one of the main reasons firearms came to precedence despite being slower, less accurate and shorter range than bows.

Too true. I have always had pretty good upper body strength for a woman, from bucking hay bales all my life to push-ups and other strength exercises in the Army, but I had great difficult pulling a compound bow when somebody let me try it. I have better luck with ye olde Robin Hood type bows but I can't imagine trying to pull a longbow. Or keeping it up for hour after hour of a long battle. I once wrote a story wherein one of the characters had lost a partner to simple exhaustion on the battlefield after the fight had deteriorated to prolonged slogging hand to hand. The reflexes slowed and he missed a stroke he shouldn't have. The archer's accuracy would deteriorate after a while, too, I'd think.

High heels are for the cavalry; I think it's a question of matching feet to stirrups. I'm no equestrian, but the few times I have mounted I've had a tendency to fall over when getting off (partly due to cramping in thighs and calves, admittedly). If, on average, the best place for your heroines is among the scouts and skirmishers (if you're writing to attract an adolescent female following, horses would probably help in a majority of cases, lacking unicorns) then high (ish – not stilettos) heeled thigh boots might not be that impracticable, and titivate the adolescent male audience's imagination, At least until she got down from her steed, and tottered instead of running.

High heels for horsemen aren't for looks; they are to keep your foot from going all the way through the stirrup and ending up getting dragged if you fall off. To this day Pony Club demands heels of a certain height (1/2 inch, I think, but I can't remember for sure; it might be higher) for safety. As to thigh boots, they are absolutely practical to prevent chafing when you spend long hours in the saddle. Comanche warriors, who rode bareback, were also known for their thigh-length boots. Cowboy boots also have fairly good heels, and the older boots were higher than modern ones. Puh-lease don't put your girl in high heels to totter around the barn or the campsite taking care of her horse (which is rarely ever shown in fiction anyway; the poor horse is just assumed to be a tireless machine). If you want her to be a credible, competent heroine, then don't remove her credibility at the outset by turning her into Hollywood's idea of cool.

 

[TL Rese]

It has long been my belief that female characters in Epic Fantasy are not equal to their male counterparts and too frequently are only there for eye candy in the visual media or at best a love interest for the male leads.

- i think this was true back in the day, with the epic fantasy tradition that tolkien started with his little band of all-male fellowship dudes. people prob just kept imitating this, so most epic fantasy has male leads.

recently (altho maybe not in epic fantasy lit, per se), there have been Lots of strong female leads - xena, buffy, katniss (hunger games), underworld, etc. but then this begs the question of whether a female lead has to be kickass (ie. like the male stereotype) to be "strong".

 

[assasin]

I think martin does females fairly well. Though a lot of his characters of both genders are a bit exagerated [mountain that rides, ser piggy, brienne the beautiful], and he has a slight imbalance towards male characters in terms of numbers.

I'm not talking about anomalies like brienne the beautiful. But politically inclined women in a mans world. The queen of torns comes immediately to mind. She is the main political strategist for the tyrells, though seeing as most tyrells we've seen so far are idiots its not that difficult to imagine. And you must admit, while cersei has her faults, she is a lot more competent than aerys the mad and baelor the befuddled/. And dany does have a lot of potential [owing to the fact she hasnt hit fifteen yet].

 

[hopewrites]

Not having read the 5 pages I don't know if Melanie Rawn and her Exiles series has been mentioned.
In the world she creates women rule over men with the very logical reason that after the war that nearly destroyed the planet a woman's right to bare healthy children became her right to rule everything else. It's an interesting role-reversal where men are treated in some cases as nothing better then breading tools. And over the course of the story she has them struggle for parental and personal rights, having already given them political and trade rights before the story begins.

So if your looking for a fantasy where women are given power, but not always powerful; where old gender roles start reversed and are slowly overcome, I recommend it. Though it isn't finished, she got stuck on book 3 Capitals Tower, still waiting for a release date on that.

 

[TL Rese]

also, this wkend i came across an article on the tor.com website that i thought was relevant to this discussion. my link won't post, but if you just google "tor, your formula for a kickass heroine", it should come up at the top. it's an article by natalie zutter.

i also had a further thought about some of the comments regarding women's lack of brute strength. of course, there's no need to make a heroine "kick ass", but there's equally no need to conform fantasy to our own reality. isn't that what makes fantasy so enjoyable, is that it's Not like our world? if women in a fantasy world are endowed with a lot of kickass power, then so be it! good fantasy has to be "believable", but it doesn't have to be "real".

 

[Rob Sanders]

They say that science fiction is not about the future, it's about the present. If SF explores present concerns then it is likely that present misogynistic representations in society and culture (or even their binary oppositions - as demonstrated in the "kick-ass" female stereotype identified above) are likely to surface in SF fiction.



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Rob Sanders Speculative Fiction

 

[hopewrites]

If SF explores present concerns then it is likely that present misogynistic representations in society and culture (or even their binary oppositions - as demonstrated in the "kick-ass" female stereotype identified above) are likely to surface in SF fiction.



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Rob Sanders Speculative Fiction

I would have to disagree with that. Mostly because it is my experience that the male of the species is the oppressed one. Touchy as the subject is I dont know how to express my opinion further without offense, and fear I have said too much already.

 

[Toby Frost]

And so, to quote King Theoden, it begins...

 

[TL Rese]

They say that science fiction is not about the future, it's about the present.


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Rob Sanders Speculative Fiction

i definitely agree with this. it's difficult, if not impossible, to write another world without it reflecting our own social values and presumptions, in some way, shape or form. but of course, fantasy n sf are blends of the real and the not real - otherwise, it would be realist fiction.

as for which gender is the oppressed one, this can be argued endlessly until doomsday. fact is, there is good and bad to being either gender, and which gender is better off is just up to personal opinions and preferences. (for example, would you rather die in childbirth or in a war? some would prefer one, while others would choose the other).

 

[soulsinging]

I'm not sure if this relates, but a study was made of American cartoons aimed at ages 7 and up, and who watched them. It was discovered that while both males and females related to males in the super hero role, males soon did not watch shows with women in that role. So, cartoons with female leads did not get the ratings and did not last. Much to the frustration of the woman who was reporting this finding. Her goal was to create female leads in cartoons.

I read something like this too, only it was about books as I recall. Girls had no problem identifying with male protagonists, but boys were very unlikely to read stories with female protagonists. I can't remember where I read it either, but it was probably somewhere at uni when I was preparing to be a teacher before I bailed on that. So they come into schools already thinking this way, which I think is due entirely to upbringing/socialization. It's ok for girls to admire masculine traits, but boys that like anything feminine quickly learn it makes them a "sissy." It's a shame.

Of course, there are exceptions. Harry Potter and Robin McKinley's Blue Sword/Hero and the Crown spring to mind as having strong, smart female protagonists that are also plenty feminine. The Hunger Games as well.

 

[Rob Sanders]

Depends how deep you go. According to Propp's Morphology of the Folktale, the character performing the role of being a 'Hero' is defined by action -usually as part of a quest or objective. Richard Dawkins assigns this confidence to act or aggressive pursuit the term 'male' or what we understand to be 'maleness' in The Selfish Gene. Looking at it that way (which is just one way of looking at it), all female characters assuming the 'traditional' role of a hero might be seen to be assuming a kind of 'maleness'. It's interesting.


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Rob Sanders Speculative Fiction

 

[Parson]

I read something like this too, only it was about books as I recall. Girls had no problem identifying with male protagonists, but boys were very unlikely to read stories with female protagonists. I can't remember where I read it either, but it was probably somewhere at uni when I was preparing to be a teacher before I bailed on that. So they come into schools already thinking this way, which I think is due entirely to upbringing/socialization. It's ok for girls to admire masculine traits, but boys that like anything feminine quickly learn it makes them a "sissy." It's a shame.

Of course, there are exceptions. Harry Potter and Robin McKinley's Blue Sword/Hero and the Crown spring to mind as having strong, smart female protagonists that are also plenty feminine. The Hunger Games as well.

A shame, I must certainly concur. I just finished reading book one of "the Hunger Games" (don't generally read much YA) but I found the book fairly riveting, but I am unsure if I want to read book two I have the awful premonition that it's going to degenerate into some sappy love story where no one is honest (or believes anyone else) --- Which I suppose puts me into the category of the male not identifying with the female point of view. Or maybe not?.

 

[TL Rese]

I have the awful premonition that it's going to degenerate into some sappy love story where no one is honest (or believes anyone else) --- Which I suppose puts me into the category of the male not identifying with the female point of view. Or maybe not?.

i'm currently almost finished reading book 3 of the hunger games, and i would encourage you to go ahead and read the rest - i thought book 2 was even more gripping. and don't worry. there's some love story, but it's just in the background and not the main focus of the books.

as for "male not identifying with the female point of view" - i dunno. i'm a girl and i hate chick lit. i dunno if that makes me a "male" or "female"? =P but frankly, i don't really care.

 

[Parson]

Parson sighs contentedly and puts book 2 "Catching Fire" on the list of books to be read soon.

 

[Anne Lyle]

I have the awful premonition that it's going to degenerate into some sappy love story where no one is honest (or believes anyone else) --- Which I suppose puts me into the category of the male not identifying with the female point of view. Or maybe not?.

"Bad romance" should not be confused with "the female point of view". Most of us gals (particularly the above-averagely intelligent women who read SFF) are equally annoyed by Too Stupid To Live characters who are kept apart by the author rather than by internal motivation.

FWIW I don't identify with the female PoV either, at least not the stereotypical "Heat" magazine-reading, baby-cooing-over variety. Give me a book about the history of swords any day

(And yes, that's a boy in my avatar...)

 

[Parson]

"Bad romance" should not be confused with "the female point of view". Most of us gals (particularly the above-averagely intelligent women who read SFF) are equally annoyed by Too Stupid To Live characters who are kept apart by the author rather than by internal motivation.

FWIW I don't identify with the female PoV either, at least not the stereotypical "Heat" magazine-reading, baby-cooing-over variety. Give me a book about the history of swords any day

(And yes, that's a boy in my avatar...)

Thanks Anne, "bad romance" I hadn't even thought of that as a category. My wife used to thrive on what I would guess most people would call "bad romance" so that's what I've read, when I've read it. She's a wonderful woman in almost every way, but she wants to be sure that the books going to end "right" before she reads it. Until she trusts the author or the series, she will read the ending before reading the book. Presently she is more into the "Amish" style romances. I haven't read any of these so they might well be a step above what she used to read.

Are there really "romances" where people are honest, trustworthy, and hard working? The closest I can come to that in my experience would be "Pillars of the Earth," which I enjoyed a lot and romance was a considerable, but it certainly wasn't (at least for me) the driving force in the book.

[I suppose it was projection, but I always thought your avatar was a girl.]

 

[Anne Lyle]

Are there really "romances" where people are honest, trustworthy, and hard working? The closest I can come to that in my experience would be "Pillars of the Earth," which I enjoyed a lot and romance was a considerable, but it certainly wasn't (at least for me) the driving force in the book.

I dunno, I don't read the romance genre. I'll happily read an SFF novel with romance in it, even a big part of it (e.g. Catharine Asaro), but because such books often deal with major cultural obstacles to the romance, they don't have to fall back on the "can't get together because they are stupidly deceitful" tropes of Bad Romance.

I think this is why new romance sub-genres like Amish and m/m (gay romance aimed at women) have become so popular - there are so few genuine obstacles to (heterosexual) romance in the modern Western world. It requires a relocation to a time or culture where the relationship in question really is going to be difficult, in order to evoke that same frisson of forbidden pleasure that bodice-rippers offered our grandmothers' generation!

[I suppose it was projection, but I always thought your avatar was a girl.]

I deliberately chose it for its ambiguity

(If you look closely at a larger version, you'll see he has the beginnings of a 'tache!)

 

[Parson]

Very Clever Anne. The guy looks like a real scalawag. Are you giving us some insight into your inner character?

I'm glad you added your definition of m/m I wouldn't have been able to guess otherwise.

 

[Anne Lyle]

Very Clever Anne. The guy looks like a real scalawag. Are you giving us some insight into your inner character?

More like my characters - I do like a good rogue!