Are female characters in Fantasy subservient to their male counterparts?

It has long been my belief that female characters in Epic Fantasy are not equal to their male counterparts and too frequently are only there for eye candy in the visual media or at best a love interest for the male leads. While we have come a long ways from the days of the "Gor" novels of the 60's, do you agree or disagree that more strong, capable, 3 dimensional female characters, with real life issues, would be a fine addition to modern Fantasy storytelling?

Some fantasy books do contain women, who are 3 dimensional in nature and interesting. Unfortunately, most of the fantasy books I read, focus more on the male characters.

I think this may be due to the fact that most fantasy writers are men?
 
Some fantasy books do contain women, who are 3 dimensional in nature and interesting. Unfortunately, most of the fantasy books I read, focus more on the male characters.

I think this may be due to the fact that most fantasy writers are men?

Around 45% of SFF writers are women - but women get reviewed less, and generally get less publicity. So there may be women writers whose work you would love, but you've never heard of them.

Of course there are variations within sub-genres - I'm willing to put good money on there being far more male writers of military SF and epic fantasy, for example. Also, if you're reading fantasy set in a historical or quasi-historical world where women are second class citizens, the chances are that, regardless of the writer's gender, the story will focus on the male characters because they have far more opportunities to do cool stuff.
 
Around 45% of SFF writers are women - but women get reviewed less, and generally get less publicity. So there may be women writers whose work you would love, but you've never heard of them.

Of course there are variations within sub-genres - I'm willing to put good money on there being far more male writers of military SF and epic fantasy, for example. Also, if you're reading fantasy set in a historical or quasi-historical world where women are second class citizens, the chances are that, regardless of the writer's gender, the story will focus on the male characters because they have far more opportunities to do cool stuff.

I tend to read epic fantasy, and most of the books I read are from male authors, so I tend to have the wrong perception that there are more male fantasy writers than female.
 
If by epic fantasy you mean several main characters and a deeply developed and explored world then Melanie Rawn's unfinished series Exiles would be perfect.
The way she made men second-class citizens, the reasoning behind it and the efforts made to over come it, brilliant. Her story is rich and even with only two books completed it is a series I enjoy revisiting time and again for its subtle intricacies and engaging plot.

she did say she would finish it eventually... *has hopes up*
 
QED :)

I don't read much epic fantasy - anyone got any suggestions for female writers of same? Would you count Juliet E McKenna? She writes secondary-world fantasies with lots of politics and characters running around big mapped-out areas...


Actually, though it's not strictly Epic Fantasy, the fantasy parts to it ARE:


The Interior Life: A Quest by Katherine Blake. The main character is a female: A housewife and mom who, despite being married to a wonderfully loving husband, goes through the same rigamarole of day-to-day cleaning/cooking/kid caring wife and mother, so in her mind she creates a world and uses it to escape. The character she has eyes through is a sexually independent, very self-confidant woman who serves as a maid to another woman-a woman of great respect and power because she has the ability known as the Sight.

Now it is through character interactions with the woman she is in the fantasy world, I can't remember that character's name, that the wife herself, whose name is Sue, actually starts to take on other aspects of her own, real life. She starts to attend PTA meetings, where she makes friends with another PTA mother. She and her friend, Siobhan, help another, pregnant woman and her young child escape from a physically abusive husband by giving her advice on where she could turn to. She buys a computer system for the first time for work, and even goes to a dinner with her husband's boss, strictly on her end as a sort of business thing for her husband. (The boss does sexually advance on her but she denies him the contact and the man is fine with it, she later tells her husband of the event, everything is fine because nothing happened.)

She even starts to delve into classical and historic music, thereby making friends with a young, late-adolescence boy, who she eventually helps hook up with her on-call babysitter. (A pretty, late-teens girl.)

I'm afraid I've given most of it away, but in no way, at any time, are the female characters ever subservient to their male counterparts, and actually, this could be quite an inspiring read to feminists, as it pictures women in a manner of independence, free thinking, still caring and loving their family, and at the same time not just giving into every sexual temptation that comes by. (The woman she is in the fantasy world is sexually open and active, but not at any point in the book anything but monogamous.)

God, if I had that book here I would read it again, it is an EXCELLENT read and I picked it up in a secondhand shop for just three or four dollars. One of the best reads of my life, and definitely a wonderful investment, especially so cheap. I've reread it about four or five times.


(And my spiel is now over, I apologize. :eek:)
 
XENA (Lucy Lawless, Xena: Warrior Princess) ,
BUFFY SUMMERS (Sarah Michelle Gellar, Buffy the Vampire Slayer) ,
SARAH CONNOR (Linda Hamilton, Terminator),
ELLEN RIPLEY (Sigourney Weaver, Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, Alien Resurrection),
PRINCESS LEIA ORGANA (Carrie Fisher, Star Wars),
STORM (Halle Berry, X-Men) ,
PRIS (Daryl Hannah, Blade Runner) ,
WONDER WOMAN (Lynda Carter, Wonder Woman) ,
BARBARELLA (Jane Fonda, Barbarella) ,
STARBUCK (Katee Sackhoff, Battlestar Galactica) ,
DANA SCULLY (Gillian Anderson, The X-Files) ,
CATWOMAN (Michelle Pfeiffer, Batman Returns) ,
KATHRYN JANEWAY (Kate Mulgrew, Star Trek: Voyager) ...

Have fun. :)
 
My heroic epic fantasy has a strong male lead, he also meets a girl who is almost as adept at the sword as he is. Both characters have strong outspoken personalities, however they are also complimentary to each other. My other female characters all have important roles to play in the story - so no, although the main lead character is male, none of the females are subservient.

Without giving too much of the story away, the main enemy in my book is an alpha female.

As a woman I like reading about strong women (and strong men) in fantasy stories. I think my all-time favourite strong female character is Ayla from the Clan of the Cave Bear series of novels. Not exactly fantasy, yet I admired Jean M. Auel's depiction of her, especially in the book 'The Valley of Horses'.
 
I think my all-time favourite strong female character is Ayla from the Clan of the Cave Bear series of novels. Not exactly fantasy, yet I admired Jean M. Auel's depiction of her, especially in the book 'The Valley of Horses'.

I think that's a debatable point. I loved Clan of the Cave Bear so far haven't read the lightly regarded last installment, but I would most definitely put into the Fantasy category. There is even a small amount of "magic."
 
I think that's a debatable point. I loved Clan of the Cave Bear so far haven't read the lightly regarded last installment, but I would most definitely put into the Fantasy category. There is even a small amount of "magic."

Interesting point, especially in regards to the small amount of (shamanistic) magic. Perhaps I don't personally regard it as fantasy because my own personal taste in fantasy is more in the range of high/epic/dark fantasy. Yes I agree CotCB is fantasy, however I'd class it as a realistic fantasy in a primitive setting.
 
I don't read much epic fantasy - anyone got any suggestions for female writers of same? Would you count Juliet E McKenna? She writes secondary-world fantasies with lots of politics and characters running around big mapped-out areas...

Haven't read McKenna, but if you have not yet encountered Carol Berg I would definitely recommend her. The Cartamandua duology hooked me with the character on page 1, and the Collegia Magica trilogy was a really good read. Her "Transformation" was excellent, though for some reason I don't have a great yen to read the rest of the series. As a character study, the first book is fascinating.
 
I read the Rai-Kirah trilogy and found it a great page-turner, but was frustrated by the end of it - I thought the princess character was woefully underdeveloped (quite a feat, given each book is ~500 pages), whilst Seyonne goes on and on about how much he loves his wife, which makes him look a complete idiot when she turns out to be an unrepentant bitch.

If I have time in my busy reading schedule I might take a look at the two-parter - thanks for the suggestion!
 
The manuscript I just finished writing has a strong female lead as one of the four main protagonists. In fact, 3 out of 4 are female characters and they can all give the male characters in my story as good as they can take.

The prequel novella I'm working on now features a sassy, quick witted woman who is good with a knife as the protagonist.



But if you want books with strong female lead at its best, then I would recommend Kate Elliot's Crossroads trilogy, in my opinion an absolute masterpiece.
 
After reading the entire thread, I now feel able to respond. I do not recall anyone mentioning the psychological aspects involved. I do feel like I am putting my head in a guillotine, & hope no one is offended, but as I understand it, women have a nurturing instinct that men lack. Men are warriors and women raise the kids not only because of their physical differences, but also, their instincts. I suppose one could argue that these instincts arose as a result of the physical differences, though I do not see how that changes anything.

Sarah Connor & ELLEN RIPLEY did not go about looking for trouble, but to defend the kids in their lives. I know little about KATHRYN JANEWAY or Buffy, whom sajtomat mentions, though, because I avoided TV during the last two decades of the 20th century.

As far as Wonder Woman goes, it has been too long since I saw the TV series, though, as I recall, the women on the island determined that WWII could affect them, & WWoman went out to prevent that from happening. This is not quite seeking adventure for the sake of adventure. :D

I guess I should ask, which of the women action characters were motivated by the lust for adventure, rather than, by other things more in line with the instincts of their sex?

PLEASE DO NOT KILL ME FOR SIMPLY BEING CURIOUS ABOUT THIS!:D
 
I guess I should ask, which of the women action characters were motivated by the lust for adventure

Dora the explorer?

I understand your question, but it's almost impossile to separate the effects of socialisation in arguments like these. There have been real-life adventurous women in periods when they would have been generally looked at aghast, and it's hard to guess how many others there would have been if society hadn't been against such things.

I would also question whether there are any modern male fictional characters with no more motivation than "lust for adventure". All characters these days need more than that.
 
I do feel like I am putting my head in a guillotine, & hope no one is offended, but as I understand it, women have a nurturing instinct that men lack. Men are warriors and women raise the kids not only because of their physical differences, but also, their instincts. I suppose one could argue that these instincts arose as a result of the physical differences, though I do not see how that changes anything.

Except that not everyone has this "nurturing instinct", if such a thing exists separate from social roles. I hated dolls as a child and never had any burning desire to have children.

I think it's more accurate to say that in societies without birth control, women's lives tend to be bounded by pregnancy and child-rearing, which makes "adventuresome" behaviour impractical. If the society is also strongly patriarchal (e.g. most Western cultures, where women had fewer legal rights than men), there is a lot of cultural pressure for women to conform to the role of wife and mother, so few will develop that independent spirit required for a fantasy protagonist.

It requires more thought to make a realistic female character in these circumstances - I know, because I've done it.
 
Without wanting to seem facetious, I honestly think that as far as this argument is concerned, you (one) just can't win. You have only to look at the schisms in feminism itself to get the impression that "feminist" is now a very vague term indeed. Very often, and probably incorrectly, to say something is feminist is now merely to indicate that it involves a woman making a lot of money, possibly at the expense of other women. If there has been a war of the sexes, it has certainly involved a lot of confusion and collaboration.

Against that background, considering the position of women in fantasy novels is guaranteed to cause trouble. Written a strong female protagonist who succeeds in a male-dominated world? Why, all you've done is put a man into a woman's body, disregarding the fundamental differences of gender outlook. This isn't Tomb Raider, you know. Or how about a powerful figure who solves problems with compromise and dialogue instead of raw aggression? That'll be the Lady Macbeth stereotype, then, sly and devious and, of course, ultimately dependent on the men she uses as her pawns. Realistic medieval setting? Failure to criticise the crimes of history. Gender equal setting? Failure to depict the crimes of history.

Personally, you can't please everyone. What I think you can do, though, is to write each character properly. That means chucking out anything wrong or ready-made: all the illogicalities, all the Mary Sue chainmail bikini stuff, the list of "mysterious things women do when left together", the "Men are such children!" attitude that seems so popular with sorceresses in David Eddings novels - and just write what that particular character would do. Some things can't be allowed to occur, but they are usually matters of common sense and survival: you couldn't walk through 14th century London in a miniskirt without getting into serious trouble (less raised eyebrows than raised pitchforks) - likewise, anyone going into battle in selected pieces of plate armour (cleavage exposed, of course) will be very dead very soon. (It's also worth mentioning that to actually train to a point where you can fight in armour and with a sword will leave you looking less like Arwen from Lord of the Rings and more like Vasquez from Aliens).

I can imagine something like this: say a fantasy-world Joan of Arc really could channel the power of some god. After her death, the people beside whom she fought cannonise her. The authorities wonder whether the process could be repeated, and set up an all-female knightly order. So the Joanites train and live like Templars (can they marry? Good question - that may have interesting repercussions). Once the initial shock dies down, and their prowess is demonstrated, they are held in awe by the people, but some see them as a bit freakish, and there are the inevitable whispered jokes about what they get up to in their monastery. But if they still can deliver the goods, they'll stay, and perhaps broaden the options for women earlier than reality allowed. If they don't, then they may become an embarrassment or, like the real Templars, be denounced as succubi and destroyed (if the Abrahamic religions have proved anything, it's that faith, sexual repression and violent misogyny are closely and sleazily linked). Meanwhile, in a different country, rumours surface of a girl who can slay dragons. "Blasphemy!" says the king. "Maybe not, liege," says the king's counsellor. "After all, in Xland they do have those Joanites..."

All of which could pan out in a lot of different ways, but, I think, makes a sort of rough sense. I can imagine the sort of women such an organisation would create, and some of the results which would at least not rely on stereotypes or offend against common sense. There might be points where a character does run parallel with a stereotype in certain ways - the High Sorceress of Yland is both crafty and glamorous because there is a lot of international diplomacy required - but those don't rely on her being a woman or doing "women stuff".

So ultimately, I suspect the answer is to write the individual character as logically as possible. If the interior logic works, then unless you are clearly setting up that character as a representative of a general type or a figure to be denounced in the plot, I can't see an inherent objection.

EDIT: apologies for incredibly long post. I had no idea I was going on that much!
 
Interesting post, Mr. Frost.

On the Joanites, I have a sort-of similar shindig in Bane of Souls (not yet published, but hopefully out this year) called the Dames de l'Acier. They're an order that keep mages in line, having undergone a process that makes them immune to the direct effects of magic.

Women find it easier to survive the process, hence the order being all female.

Oh, and on Miss Croft: she's being rebranded for the new reboot this year. Looks are more realistic, and whilst still attractive her, er, flotation aids have decreased buoyancy compared to the past.
 
That sounds like a really good idea. I suppose if you are writing a fantasy story with medieval Europe as a backdrop, and want to give women a more active role, you have to find some way to put them in exciting situations where they are allowed to be competent. Generally, since the main difference between real medieval times and fantasy is magic, using magic to allow women to have a greater role is the easiest way to do it. It sounds like you've got a good way of making that happen (the obvious path is to have female wizards - sterotypically healers!).

[For no good reason I have the curious mental image of Julie Andrews dancing up mountains and fighting dragons by shouting "Do Re Mi!" at them. Anyhow.]
 
Dora the explorer?

I understand your question, but it's almost impossile to separate the effects of socialisation in arguments like these. There have been real-life adventurous women in periods when they would have been generally looked at aghast, and it's hard to guess how many others there would have been if society hadn't been against such things.

I would also question whether there are any modern male fictional characters with no more motivation than "lust for adventure". All characters these days need more than that.

Except that not everyone has this "nurturing instinct", if such a thing exists separate from social roles. I hated dolls as a child and never had any burning desire to have children.

I think it's more accurate to say that in societies without birth control, women's lives tend to be bounded by pregnancy and child-rearing, which makes "adventuresome" behaviour impractical. If the society is also strongly patriarchal (e.g. most Western cultures, where women had fewer legal rights than men), there is a lot of cultural pressure for women to conform to the role of wife and mother, so few will develop that independent spirit required for a fantasy protagonist.

It requires more thought to make a realistic female character in these circumstances - I know, because I've done it.
I have no kids, though I have a basic idea of Dora's character. :p Does the instinct, if it exists, arise from the physique, or is it the opposite? I freely admit being old-fashioned, and that I have no problem with women who, being thrust into situations not of their own choosing, take on whatever roles are necessary.

One manga/anime title character is Sapphire, who, while a female, because of a prank by an angel, was born with both male & female hearts. She is a princess who is proclaimed a prince, & reared as such, though she also receives the standard training for a princess. There is an evil duke who wants his half-wit son on the throne, & as the kingdom denies it to women, is out to prove Sapphire is really a girl.

Complications arise when God sends the angel to Earth to retrieve the boy's heart, because he is forced to do so, when Sapphire most needs it; for she is dueling with Sir Nylon who is the Duke's henchman.

This story gives girls both adventure that is usually reserved for the boys' comics, & the fancy dresses, etc., that appealed to girls. But it clearly makes Sapphire as a girl weak, though benefiting from the male strength of the boys' heart. She initially finds the woman's role distasteful, & much prefers the man's role. But, after the angel coerces her into wearing a beautiful dress, & attending a dance, her desires for the man's role slip away, especially after she dances with the prince from the neighboring kingdom.

I think that the modern 'feminism' may have arisen, in part, from abusive husbands who denigrated the role of women. They saw themselves as kings of their households, and their wives as mere concubines or slaves. Admittedly, motherhood is a burden, but until recently, life itself was also a burden. Since the men earned the wages, they felt they alone should have control/authority. I understand that the older cultures placed women in the submissive roles. I, for one view the Genesis Adam & Eve story as an allegory for childhood innocence & coming of age; though either way, it apparently places women in the inferior role. As an allegory, it only gives an explanation for the way society was, but as history, it demands things be that way.

Clearly, the man wants a son to inherit his name, wealth, & title, if he has any. The woman, being literally the property of her father, has little if any say in whom her husband will be. I read an autobiography of 3 generations of Chinese women. I think it was called WILD SWANS; anyway, the oldest generation, the grandmother was given away as a concubine for the hoped political-social advancement of her father. To him, she was nothing but a commodity, to be spent as he pleased. Her happiness was not even a factor.

If things had been fair, the women should impose demands on her husband to be, & the law would enforce them. He gets his son, but must also give his own share. But, history indicates that might = right.

I think it takes a lot of strength to be a mother. Especially when the culture seems to denigrate the role. Here, in the USA, the kids of Mexican immigrants will soon out number the citizens whose grandparents etc. were born here, because the wealthy seem to regard parenting as an undesirable thing, but the immigrants are having 5 or 6 kids per family, perhaps strict Catholicism or poor education accounts for this.

It seems to me, that if a person was trained to be a smithy, or a physicist, he should not prefer being a miner or a historian. Here I go, putting my head on the block, there are roles for which men are better equipped than women, just as the role of child bearing & rearing is especially suited to women. Men can only watch the special intimacy that mothers have with their children. I know there are plenty of women who resent this role, or at least have no interest in it. 1 of the actresses who portrayed CATWOMAN in the 1960s BATMAN put off motherhood until she was in her 40s. She gave birth to a half-wit son; perhaps not entirely because she waited so long, but that certainly was a factor. Whether she had all along intended to delay motherhood or avoid it altogether, I know not.

I do not know much about male characters, offhand, but real-life men do things like climbing mountains simply because they are there. I also know there have been a few women mountain climbers, though.

I should have kept this much shorter, & fear this post may be a bit confusing. :D
 

Similar threads


Back
Top