Lady Stark from A Song of Ice and Fire?!

[Ursa major]

Yes, he has, and quite rightly so.


Now back to the completely uncontroversial topic: Has GRRM lost the plot...?

 

[Glaysher]

I feel very confident that he has set his pieces up properly and that TWOW will be a great book. I'm just not convinced that he can end the story in two books.

Considering he originally envisioned Song of Ice and Fire as a trilogy it is difficult to keep faith with any estimates of how many books he needs to finish the story.

 

[mtzGr]

Now back to the completely uncontroversial topic: Has GRRM lost the plot...?

I think he has based on the pacing of the last book.

I made a picture to illustrate the story in its current state:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/846/iceandfirew.jpg/

 

[C Of K]

I'm not sure if he's lost the plot. I hope not. I do think he tries too hard, and sometimes loses perspective. Whatever the case, I don't think anyone can disagree that George has had trouble getting this story out.

Should the last two books have been up to par with the first three books? Yes. Some people think they were. Some people think they were better. Some people have suggested that, these last two being part of the middle movement made it difficult for George to carry on the pacing that made the first books so great.

I have to agree with that. George has probably done more maneuvering in these last two books, and the pacing has suffered. Did it have to be this way? I don't think so, but then, I'm not writing ASOIAF. I'm sitting at home, comfortably at my PC. I have no idea what it's like to be GRRM. So, once again, I'll wait patiently for TWOW.

 

[Ursa major]

Sorry. "Lost the plot" was a rather stark phrase to use, but I wanted to use something to catch the eye and get the thread back on track (or, at least, that bit of the track that is most amenable to sensible debate).


AFfC and ADwD were always going to be the hardest books to write, and are (will be?) probably the hardest ones to read. In a series with so many parallel plots, the middle section, where these plots are at their most diverse and furthest from their origins and resolutions, was always going to be problematic. Frankly, it can be difficult, for both writer and readers, to fit everything into the brain in order to make sense of it all. (GRRM has managed it, I believe. As for the readers, that's where the rereads can help. I've done this with AFfC, and while I always did enjoy the book, it's far better on a second acquaintance; I expect ADwD, which I already like, to similarly "improve".)

 

[C Of K]

I think lost the plot was adequate. And it did catch the eye enough to get the thread back on course.

I agree that AFFC and ADWD were always going to be the hardest for George to write. But I don't think there absolutely had to be any books that were harder to read than others. I think a lot of George's problems writing those two had to do with the many plot lines he has going at once. But I also think that George has an easier time beginning such an ambitious a story than he does moving the middle along. This may not apply to everything he writes, but definitely to something as ambitious as ASOIAF.

There are many writers who find it more challenging to begin a story than they do to progress it beyond the middle movement. There are writers who thrive as they juggle many plot threads, and actually improve upon their previous work during the middle stages. George has many strengths, but it's inevitable that he will have writing weaknesses as well.

The reason I doubt he's lost the plot is because he knows how he wants things to end, and it's highly likely that he will be a strong finisher.

 

[soulsinging]

The difference between the Satr Wars prequels and books 4 and 5 of ASOIAF is the prequels were really lousy. Even the most die-hard Stars Wars fan probably wouldn't watch any of the 3 after seeing them once.

That's a pretty subjective "difference." Plenty of folks defend the Star Wars prequels and plenty think the latter two books were dreck. Oddly, I think casual SW fans like the prequels more than die hards, which is the opposite of ASOIAF.

Just as a final note, i think the fact that the first 3 books were so good has resulted in unjustified animosity towards GRRM because he hasn't been able to achieve the same level in the last 2. I also think that this animosity has been further fueled by many people being angry that he took as long as he did to publish ADWD. While i recognize those as legitimate complaints, I still maintain that GRRM on his worst day is better than most authors on their best. I also think that while he didn't move the story far enough forward in ADWD, we have to remember that much of the book happens in parallel with AFFC. I agree that he could have written shorter versions of AFFC and ADWD, but that's water under the bridge. I feel very confident that he has set his pieces up properly and that TWOW will be a great book. I'm just not convinced that he can end the story in two books.

I've heard that said and maybe there's truth to it, but it doesn't cover all cases. I didn't have to wait for AFFC at all... it was already in paperback before I even heard of the series. So I didn't wait or build up anticipation. I truly think that it is a very weak book, and not just in comparison to the rest of the series.

As to beating a dead horse, maybe I'm guilty of that. But I also feel like there's a paucity of criticism, esp when people are asking for thoughts on the series or aren't loving it as much as everyone else is. This is not the infamous westeros bbs of which I've heard. I appreciate that when one is passionate about a work consistent criticism of it can feel almost like a personal attack on one's taste, but when the pro-series views outweigh the con views something like 10-1 as they do here, I view my repetition not so much as beating a dead horse as being the token counterpoint view in a mountain of praise. I do make an effort to confine it to threads where the subject has already been brought up and discussed though, and hopefully for the most part have succeeded.

 

[vanslyke]

I'm not sure if it's a matter of losing himself in the plot and getting sidetracked so much as him falling in love with certain characters and furthering their stories along much more than the others. Each book it seems takes on a different tone, I have a feeling the final 2 or 3 books will be more focused on a smaller amount of people. At least I'm hoping.

 

[The Imp]

I'm not sure if it's a matter of losing himself in the plot and getting sidetracked so much as him falling in love with certain characters and furthering their stories along much more than the others. Each book it seems takes on a different tone, I have a feeling the final 2 or 3 books will be more focused on a smaller amount of people. At least I'm hoping.

In the Google interview/Q&A GRRM stated that he has too many POV characters and he needs to start killing some off.

Direct quote

"I do need to kill a lot more of my POV chacters, 'cause there have gotten to be an awful lot of them" followed by VERY nervous laughter.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

George has many strengths, but it's inevitable that he will have writing weaknesses as well.

I think you hit the nail on the head, and summed up GRRM's current dilemma. I just couldn't bring myself to admit that GRRM has any weaknesses. (Yet this "weakness" is still up in the air until the last two remaining books are released) He will need to be really impressive in the last two books tying everything from AFFC/ADWD and making a logical conclusion to wipe the "lost the plot" stigma he now has.

Originally Posted by C Of K
The reason I doubt he's lost the plot is because he knows how he wants things to end, and it's highly likely that he will be a strong finisher

I truly believe (and not necessarily an insult) that GRRM is milking his fame by continuing and/or expanding this series a lot further than he intended as a result of this fame. How many readers or even die hard SCI FI fans knew who GRRM was before ASOIAF? My guess is not many, or probably 5-10% of his current fans, and that's being generous. Again, no knock on him doing this because in anything you have to strike while the iron is hot. Has anyone ever saw a sequel to a movie, and thought, they should have left well enough alone.

I think he originally knew how he wanted to end it, true. However, with the scrap and rewrite i believe things will undoubtedly change how the ending was originally supposed to conclude.

Originally Posted by IMP:
In the Google interview/Q&A GRRM stated that he has too many POV characters and he needs to start killing some off.

Well let's hope he doesn’t introduce any more "new" characters to the series as he did with book 5 of 7! (Hence my "milking" reference)

Sometimes milking a series or extending a character can be a good thing as it was with Omar from the HBO series The Wire. I believe he wasnt supposed to make it out of Season 1, but after becoming a fan favorite, his role was extended. To everyone's delight i might add, until the way he died. I'm going to have my dislikes about how we got to the point we're at now, but i will be confident that GRRM can wrap things up nicely, even if he has to shoot from the hip going forward.

 

[The Imp]

I think you hit the nail on the head, and summed up GRRM's current dilemma. I just couldn't bring myself to admit that GRRM has any weaknesses. (Yet this "weakness" is still up in the air until the last two remaining books are released) He will need to be really impressive in the last two books tying everything from AFFC/ADWD and making a logical conclusion to wipe the "lost the plot" stigma he now has.



I truly believe (and not necessarily an insult) that GRRM is milking his fame by continuing and/or expanding this series a lot further than he intended as a result of this fame. How many readers or even die hard SCI FI fans knew who GRRM was before ASOIAF? My guess is not many, or probably 5-10% of his current fans, and that's being generous. Again, no knock on him doing this because in anything you have to strike while the iron is hot. Has anyone ever saw a sequel to a movie, and thought, they should have left well enough alone.

I think he originally knew how he wanted to end it, true. However, with the scrap and rewrite i believe things will undoubtedly change how the ending was originally supposed to conclude.



Well let's hope he doesn’t introduce any more "new" characters to the series as he did with book 5 of 7! (Hence my "milking" reference)

Sometimes milking a series or extending a character can be a good thing as it was with Omar from the HBO series The Wire. I believe he wasnt supposed to make it out of Season 1, but after becoming a fan favorite, his role was extended. To everyone's delight i might add, until the way he died. I'm going to have my dislikes about how we got to the point we're at now, but i will be confident that GRRM can wrap things up nicely, even if he has to shoot from the hip going forward.

I think it's entirely possible that GRRM made a conscious decsion to lengthen the series to take advantage of it financially. If he did, i don't blame him a bit. I think it's more likely though that his original estimate of 3 books was just unrealistic (given the way he writes).

I doubt that we're going to see any new charcters, at least no major ones, let alone POV characters (with, of course, the exception of Howland Reed). I think it's very likely that all-out war will break out across the 7 kingoms, adn we now have the liklihood of The Others invading, as well as Dany coming with her dragon(s) and perhaps with a Dothraki army at her back. People are going to die, and it's going to be ugly. I suspect that whoever remains, perhaps some Starks,Dany and maybe an odd Lannister or Martell,, will have to unite against the common foe of The Others, and that magic will play a part in the last book.

I think that GRRM may have too many plotlines to resolve to get it done in two books, but who knows. In any event, two books or five, the next book will have to be "hit out of park" or many of his critics will be proved right.

 

[dragonstone]

I think it's entirely possible that GRRM made a conscious decsion to lengthen the series to take advantage of it financially. If he did, i don't blame him a bit.

Certainly in Europe he did. ACOK came out as 2 books over here.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

I think it's entirely possible that GRRM made a conscious decsion to lengthen the series to take advantage of it financially. If he did, i don't blame him a bit. I think it's more likely though that his original estimate of 3 books was just unrealistic (given the way he writes).

I was joking with a friend whom i have reading the series about this as well. We agreed that if GRRM took out all of the overly excessive detailed descriptions of the clothes, people, food, and lands this would have been a two book series

However, i can say that i didnt need the HBO Series to know exactly what the clothes, people, food, and lands looked like due to his excessive descriptions. He definitely knows how to hook the reader and make you a "fly on the wall" to whatever he's describing. I think this is part of why i like the series so much, but once you put aside the extreem descriptions and focus on the story, you realize after 5 books you havent really gotten anywhere close to knowing what's really going to happen. I think he has a good balance right now, but the next book will decide which side of the fence most readers will fall in regards to his intended/unintended direction or lack there of.

 

[Mesanna]

Certainly in Europe he did. ACOK came out as 2 books over here.

I think you might mean ASoS? My ACoK paperwork is one book, Storm of Swords is two. That decision to split was actually made by the publishers, not GRRM. I don't doubt that he benefits from it, but it wasn't his choice.

I'm wondering if the same thing might happen with ADwD when it comes out in paperback, given its length. Has anyone heard if it will definitely be one paperback book in the UK? If it ends up being two, you'd be just as well buying the hardback, cos there will be little saving if you have to buy two paperbacks (though it's a helluva big heavy book. Kinda wish I'd just bought the Kindle version!)

 

[The Imp]

I think you might mean ASoS? My ACoK paperwork is one book, Storm of Swords is two. That decision to split was actually made by the publishers, not GRRM. I don't doubt that he benefits from it, but it wasn't his choice.

I'm wondering if the same thing might happen with ADwD when it comes out in paperback, given its length. Has anyone heard if it will definitely be one paperback book in the UK? If it ends up being two, you'd be just as well buying the hardback, cos there will be little saving if you have to buy two paperbacks (though it's a helluva big heavy book. Kinda wish I'd just bought the Kindle version!)

ADWD is slightly fewer than ASOS if I'm not mistaken, so if ASOS was split it makes sense that ADWD might be.

 

[soulsinging]

I think it's entirely possible that GRRM made a conscious decsion to lengthen the series to take advantage of it financially. If he did, i don't blame him a bit. I think it's more likely though that his original estimate of 3 books was just unrealistic (given the way he writes).

I'm mostly in agreement with you on this one. It doesn't make sense for him to draw it out for $ when it takes him so long to release the books. If he was stalling to run up his bank, he'd have a weak book out every 2 like Robert Jordan. I think he'd love nothing more than to have the whole thing finished and out and done tomorrow so he could move on.

I just think he's become a little too attached to his creation and the resulting inability to self-edit as much as he has in the past is making it difficult for him to get to where he wants the series to go. So he keeps getting sidetracked exploring ideas in writing that he might have just thought through and worked into the background in the earlier books (eg. tower of joy and the whole war... that can be flashback but the 5-year gap the last 2 books covered can't?). The publishers are happy to let him indulge though becos more books is more money for them.

What he really needs is someone to tell him no and give him a firm editorial hand. Otherwise, I predict this series will wind up 11 books long, if he lives that long.

As to splitting ASOS up, I was under the impression that was just becos of the way they bind books in the uk. I think it's happened to Harry Potter paperbacks too?

 

[The Imp]

I'm mostly in agreement with you on this one. It doesn't make sense for him to draw it out for $ when it takes him so long to release the books. If he was stalling to run up his bank, he'd have a weak book out every 2 like Robert Jordan. I think he'd love nothing more than to have the whole thing finished and out and done tomorrow so he could move on.

I just think he's become a little too attached to his creation and the resulting inability to self-edit as much as he has in the past is making it difficult for him to get to where he wants the series to go. So he keeps getting sidetracked exploring ideas in writing that he might have just thought through and worked into the background in the earlier books (eg. tower of joy and the whole war... that can be flashback but the 5-year gap the last 2 books covered can't?). The publishers are happy to let him indulge though becos more books is more money for them.

What he really needs is someone to tell him no and give him a firm editorial hand. Otherwise, I predict this series will wind up 11 books long, if he lives that long.

As to splitting ASOS up, I was under the impression that was just becos of the way they bind books in the uk. I think it's happened to Harry Potter paperbacks too?

I totally agree. GRRM desparately needs a ruthless editor.