Oh no, not a religious discussion

[The Imp]

oh, yes that is true, but I say he still kinda won cause he did kill Gregor, so it can be argued that Gods had both men killed for their sins.

Oberyn and Gregor weren't on tiral though. Gregor was the champion of the accuser (Cersei), and Oberyn was the champion of the accused, in this case, Tyrion. The Gods found Tyrion guilty.

just to be fair and thorough though, it's not 100% clear 9to me at least) that Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey. We know that Dontos gave Sansa the hair net, and we also know that Lady Olenna adjusted the hairnet that contained a piece of poison BUT, Tyrion may very well have also poisoned Joffrey. He stole poison from Pycelle, and he spent all of aDWD claiming that he killed Joffrey.

 

[3EyedCrowsEye]

oh yeah, I keep thinking The Red Viper fought The Mountain because of his sister, I totally forgot that it was as a champion.

as for Tyrion, we know he didn't kill Joff because we know from his chapters, it is almost confirmed to be The Queen of Thorns. Tyrion juts accepts the fact no one will believe him so he just takes the blame. but then again I am always wrong

 

[The Imp]

oh yeah, I keep thinking The Red Viper fought The Mountain because of his sister, I totally forgot that it was as a champion.

as for Tyrion, we know he didn't kill Joff because we know from his chapters, it is almost confirmed to be The Queen of Thorns. Tyrion juts accepts the fact no one will believe him so he just takes the blame. but then again I am always wrong

I think that's true. It would just be a fascinating twist if it turned out that tow different people had poisoned Joff.

 

[juleska]

R'hllorism is like Zoroastrianism, it's dualist. But I can't stand R'hllor, nor Mel.

The Drowned God is just Cthulhu.

I'm with the Old Gods and the Many Faced God. Death seems to be the most appropriate thing to worship in this world. Also, valar morghulis is just the kind of prayer I like, short and simple, and I can just make a list of idiot politicians who're ruining my country right now, and add valar morghulis after that.

Well said, Alayne. One of the things that keeps me from discounting the many-faced God is the sense that true followers really are seekers of justice. Arya is the prime example. If you look at the people on her list, she includes not only people who've wronged her family, but people who've simply committed evil of some kind against an innocent. She endangered herself and her wolf (by threat of execution) when Joffrey went after her friend Micah (or whatever his name was). She's much like Brienne in that way (defending the defenseless, even when it doesn't make good sense for her), but I think she's wiser to the ways of the world than Brienne.

 

[Boaz]

Spoiler Alert!

Like what is your favorite religion, which one makes better people (ie.Cersei and Davos) and cause the most damage or development. Which ones are just bunk and which ones are truly real.

First let me say that my opinion is biased. In no way can I come to ASOIAF without relating its religions without consciously (and even unconsciously) comparing them to my own experience.

Favorite? None of them.... but that does not mean that I don't find them interesting. The Imp stated that GRRM was raised Roman Catholic and I can readily believe it. The Faith has much of its structure from Catholicism, yet lacks any real manifestations of ever being (or having ever been) in communion with the divine. The seven aspects only seem to elicit supplication to ward off evil... or else a habitual (almost superstitious) expression of gratitude when disaster is avoided. I think GRRM is very familiar with this form of religion and I take it as a warning to the Church.

The dualistic religion of R'hllor is interesting because of the obvious supernatural expressions revealed by it's practioners. Melisandre, Thoros, and the priests in Volantis readily recruit adherents because they can show supernatural power. That's not something to be taken lightly... especially by those who plan on fighting the supernatural or fighting against tremendous odds. But the dualistic aspect is problematic... Why hasn't The Other done anything in the last 8,000 years? Why has it taken him so long to bring an assault upon the world? Why does he only attack the north of Westeros and not Essos or Sothoryos? Why is he so easily confined to just a part of one continent? If he and R'hllor are basically equal, then R'hllor must be severely constricted also. And then why did R'hllor allow the people closest to the lands of The Other to lose contact with him?

Their are other religions to be sure... The Old Gods, the Drowned God, the Rhoynish religion, the Harpy of Ghis, the eternal star riders of the Dothraki, the Great Shepherd, and many others that I've forgotten or don't know of yet. Many of the religions don't show supernatural connections, but many at least promote familial and societal ethics. Yet, the cult of the Many-Faced God stands out from the crowd. They don't promote honesty, duty, selflessness, patience, or love. They only promote revenge and oblivion. I know that Arya calls him the kindly old man, but he is a master assassin for hire. He promotes the eradication of all emotion towards life. But then how can he claim to be providing mercy? Blood is his only goal. I find him absolutely appalling.

Holy; are there truly holy people/animals like Melisandre Damphir or even the Direwolves and Dragons. The Wizards/Priests of Qqarth and Asshai.

I need to comment upon your choice of the word holy... and not because I'm a language snob, but because I want to clarity upon this particular subject.

Holy means of or pertaining to the divine... especially in a good and pure sense. I think supernatural would be a much more appropriate word. Dragons and direwolves are not of our natural world. The followers of R'hllor have power, but they have not yet shown us a direct connection to a good and pure divinity. Blood sacrifice seems the exact opposite of holy to me.

I don't think that GRRM has given us any holy characters. Aeron has yet to show us any connection to the divine... he's shown us plenty of wishful thinking. None of the High Septons seem to have a connection to the divine. The current HS definitely comes closest, but his readiness to engage in politics turns me off... and again there's no display of the supernatural.

Martin does show us that he thinks love, innocence, purity and goodness are important. Penny, Brienne, Podrick, Eddard, Dany before Mirri, Myrcella, Tommen, Arya before Joffrey, Bran before Jaime, Septon Meribald, the Elder Brother, Samwell, Barristan, and Aegon are among the best people in the story. But in an imperfect world, these people are constantly abused. And the scary part is that only R'hllor and the Many-Faced God offer solutions... get revenge or commit suicide.

 

[3EyedCrowsEye]

I need to comment upon your choice of the word holy... and not because I'm a language snob, but because I want to clarity upon this particular subject.

I used the words god and holy cuz in AsoIaF, Direwolves (especially The Starks wolves) are in the story considered holy (in that some god or gods sent them with a purpose) by some so I stuck to that word

But after reading what you have to say, I have to agree with you. I really do believe in the end, they're all superstitions, but some more powerful than others.

Though sometimes that Lord of Light does seem to be the real deal

 

[Tywin]

I find it interesting that this entire thread on religion has focused on which religion gives the biggest bang for the buck on magic and supernatural occurrences.

The Seven hasn't given its followers flaming swords or resurrection or any of that... what it gives is a moral code that gives it's people something to strive towards. I got it that people don't meet the bar set by the religion, but perhaps the overall effect on Society at least trying to orient themselves towards that religious ideal is important.

Westeros is the only land described by GRR Martin that seems to have a people that care about ideals or causes greater than their own personal ambition. Westeros has 7 Kingdoms united because of the morality of the Seven while the rest of the world is squabbling city-states.

So, back to our question of which religion is 'real' or more powerful: Given the choice between some powerful magic tricks or a united populace of several million men and women willing to lay down their lives for your cause... I choose the latter.

The power of the Seven is a more mature, sustainable, and in the end far more effective manifestation of religion.

 

[3EyedCrowsEye]

I find it interesting that this entire thread on religion has focused on which religion gives the biggest bang for the buck on magic and supernatural occurrences.

The Seven hasn't given its followers flaming swords or resurrection or any of that... what it gives is a moral code that gives it's people something to strive towards. I got it that people don't meet the bar set by the religion, but perhaps the overall effect on Society at least trying to orient themselves towards that religious ideal is important.

Westeros is the only land described by GRR Martin that seems to have a people that care about ideals or causes greater than their own personal ambition. Westeros has 7 Kingdoms united because of the morality of the Seven while the rest of the world is squabbling city-states.

So, back to our question of which religion is 'real' or more powerful: Given the choice between some powerful magic tricks or a united populace of several million men and women willing to lay down their lives for your cause... I choose the latter.

The power of the Seven is a more mature, sustainable, and in the end far more effective manifestation of religion.

Well said, you have helped restore my faith in The Seven.

 

[HareBrain]

Westeros is the only land described by GRR Martin that seems to have a people that care about ideals or causes greater than their own personal ambition. Westeros has 7 Kingdoms united because of the morality of the Seven while the rest of the world is squabbling city-states.

I have to say I raised an eyebrow at this. Whilst there are a few characters who show concern for other people and the land as a whole, I've never found much evidence that the Seven and their worship provide any impetus towards a more evolved society.

Nor can I remember finding out the Faith's teaching on the afterlife, nor the justification for its claim to pre-eminence. Where are its prophets, its saints, its (apparent) miracles, its thinkers, its mystics? It seems to be something tacked on to Westeros society because GRRM thought it needed a monotheistic, vaguely medieval-style religion, rather than intrinsic to it. I think Boaz is right that it shows no connection to the divine, but I'd go further and say it even shows very little interest in connecting with the divine.

 

[The Imp]

I have to say I raised an eyebrow at this. Whilst there are a few characters who show concern for other people and the land as a whole, I've never found much evidence that the Seven and their worship provide any impetus towards a more evolved society.

Nor can I remember finding out the Faith's teaching on the afterlife, nor the justification for its claim to pre-eminence. Where are its prophets, its saints, its (apparent) miracles, its thinkers, its mystics? It seems to be something tacked on to Westeros society because GRRM thought it needed a monotheistic, vaguely medieval-style religion, rather than intrinsic to it. I think Boaz is right that it shows no connection to the divine, but I'd go further and say it even shows very little interest in connecting with the divine.

I agree with both you and Boaz, although The Faith is a kind of odd mix between monotheism and polytheism (one God, but having seven aspects) GRRM himself has said that he used Catholcism as a model, and points out the Holy Trinity that Catholics use. Disciples of The Drowned god use what appears to be a ritual simialr to baptism to initiate followers, with the Drowned God "himself' being GRRM's homage to H.P. Lovecraft (Cthulhu). The thing that is most interesting to me about religion in aSoIaF is that none of the reglions really talk about and afterlife, or any sort of reward after one dies, only about helping in this life.

 

[Tywin]

I have to say I raised an eyebrow at this. Whilst there are a few characters who show concern for other people and the land as a whole, I've never found much evidence that the Seven and their worship provide any impetus towards a more evolved society.

I didn't say that people who followed the Seven seemed to be more moral than their other counterparts, but they do seem to at least consider ethical norms larger than their own personal gain. There are also numerous examples of characters and groups that do take up causes in the name of that morality: the sparrows, the Silent Sisters, the begging brothers, the religious orders of knights and soldiers that spring up (I forget their names atm) to protect the faithful, even knights in general who are sworn to uphold values. Not that they necessarily live up to these values, but they are a part of them and affect their behavior more than if they didn't believe in them at all.

I don't see the other religions urging people towards any standard of conduct, with the exception of The Drowned God who seems to want his people to live by a pretty nasty code. R'hllor talks about good and evil and light and dark, but the only criteria for "good" seems to be belief in R'hllor himself. Anything and everything done in the name of R'hllor is "good" by definition. Sending shadow assasins to kill people? Burning men alive in sacrifice? Hanging hundreds or thousands of men from trees all over the riverlands? All defined as "Good" if done by someone who believes in R'hllor.

 

[dragonstone]

Good thread. I picked up on a quote by Jojen at the end of ACOK, where he says something like "there is power in a living wood, as strong as any fire". Just interesting given the fact that the R'hllor and old gods faiths seem to be the most potent.

 

[dragonstone]

The drowned god is absolute bunk in my opinion, as are The Seven.

The only example I can think of the seven ever having any semblance of magic is when, before she hatches her dragon, Dany says that yesterday she was a child, today she is a woman and tomorrow she will be old - the maid, the mother and the crone.

I have my own theory as to why the faith of the seven doesn't seem work. If the seven all represent ordinary people, then it is in fact the actions of people that is the magic behind it.

 

[Tywin]

If the seven all represent ordinary people, then it is in fact the actions of people that is the magic behind it.

Precisely.

 

[The Imp]

The only example I can think of the seven ever having any semblance of magic is when, before she hatches her dragon, Dany says that yesterday she was a child, today she is a woman and tomorrow she will be old - the maid, the mother and the crone.

I have my own theory as to why the faith of the seven doesn't seem work. If the seven all represent ordinary people, then it is in fact the actions of people that is the magic behind it.

All due respect, just because Dany made a yesterday, today and tomorrow reference doesn't make it apply to The Seven and certainly isn't a representation of any power that The Seven have. The 'actions of the people" jhaven't stopped Tywin Lannister or The Ironborn from raping, looting and pllaging, or any of the other atrocities that have been perpetrated by any of the other sadistic miscreants we've seen in the books. IMO, The Faith is bogus until someone can prove otherwise.

 

[dragonstone]

All due respect, just because Dany made a yesterday, today and tomorrow reference doesn't make it apply to The Seven and certainly isn't a representation of any power that The Seven have. The 'actions of the people" jhaven't stopped Tywin Lannister or The Ironborn from raping, looting and pllaging, or any of the other atrocities that have been perpetrated by any of the other sadistic miscreants we've seen in the books. IMO, The Faith is bogus until someone can prove otherwise.

No I accept your point, and I only stated (or meant) that that is the closest thing to magic I could find in relation to the seven.

As to my second point, I was showing why I believe the seven aren't magic, because ordinary people simply don't possess magical powers. Anyone who wields magic has derived them from some greater power above. So like Mel for instance got hers from R'hllor and Bran from the old gods.

 

[The Imp]

No I accept your point, and I only stated (or meant) that that is the closest thing to magic I could find in relation to the seven.

As to my second point, I was showing why I believe the seven aren't magic, because ordinary people simply don't possess magical powers. Anyone who wields magic has derived them from some greater power above. So like Mel for instance got hers from R'hllor and Bran from the old gods.

Thanks for the clarification i think that there might be forms of magic that might not be derived from the Gods, but i essentially agree with your statement

 

[Tywin]

I have misgivings with the whole basis of religious faith being on magic at all. It just seems a little juvenile. Magic tricks are less important than peace of mind and a happy family in the long run.

In the real world I would compare Voodoo to Christianity. One promises the power of magic over friends and enemies while the other gives you some guidelines to hopefully live your life by and promises a happy afterlife. Guess which one has more followers.

 

[dragonstone]

I have misgivings with the whole basis of religious faith being on magic at all. It just seems a little juvenile. Magic tricks are less important than peace of mind and a happy family in the long run.

In the real world I would compare Voodoo to Christianity. One promises the power of magic over friends and enemies while the other gives you some guidelines to hopefully live your life by and promises a happy afterlife. Guess which one has more followers.

Well firstly I don't know all that much about voodoo (and I don't think you do either - other than some false but popular stereotype) but I think that's an unfair representation. Besides that there is plenty of magic associated with Christianity - basically the entire Old Testament, all the miracles of Jesus, communion in Catholicism, all the various apparitions of Mary and things like the shroud of Turin. Even Jesus' face appearing on a piece of toast .

Secondly it is only a work of fiction so let's not use our real world interpretations of religion to cast make interpretations on that in ASOIF.

 

[Timba]

Well firstly I don't know all that much about voodoo (and I don't think you do either - other than some false but popular stereotype) but I think that's an unfair representation. Besides that there is plenty of magic associated with Christianity - basically the entire Old Testament, all the miracles of Jesus, communion in Catholicism, all the various apparitions of Mary and things like the shroud of Turin. Even Jesus' face appearing on a piece of toast .

Secondly it is only a work of fiction so let's not use our real world interpretations of religion to cast make interpretations on that in ASOIF.

Disclaimer, I am a born again skeptic.

I find all real life superstition/religion to be of little or no value. The oft repeated claim that they provide a framework by which society improves itself to be rather strongly disputed by the historical record of what they have really done.

In fiction, however, it seems to me that magic and the ability to accomplish things outside the norm is often integral to providing a way forward in what might otherwise be insurmountable barriers to the progression of the story.

In GRRM's world there really appears to be no "good" religion unless we accept at face value Mel's claim that the darkness will swallow all unless we follow Big Red but isn't that simply, at this point, her point of view unsupported by anything else?

I think the old gods still have a role to play, why else would we even have the Bran story line if that were not true.