(Spoiler Alert) Why Jon Snow AA

[garion77]

I just remembered something I read at the end of ASOS... While Jon was sparring the guy from the other segment of the night watch... I think his name is Ebes or something, he left his body and was in a trance... He was beating up on the guy and didn't realize what he was doing. And he became a master swordsman while in his outer body trance.

He was able to easy defeat one of the best swordsman in the NW.... I was wondering what kept him from doing that against Mance? I don't remember what happened doing his sparring with the NW guy that caused him to become another person and a kickass swordsman to boot... But he hasn't done it again since ASOS...

Do anyone else have any insight into what happened to Jon?

 

[Pilpel]

A solid reason as to why Mance defeated him is that one doesn't become king beyond the wall without physically overcoming the other contenders.
As for the trance, I'm not sure but I'll look it up the first chance I get!

 

[garion77]

A solid reason as to why Mance defeated him is that one doesn't become king beyond the wall without physically overcoming the other contenders.
As for the trance, I'm not sure but I'll look it up the first chance I get!

But if Jon had went into his trance, Mance would not have stood a chance. The guy Jon was fighting was the pride of Eastwatch in swordsmanship and was kicking Jon's butt. Something took over Jon's body and when he came to himself, people was yelling at him to stop beating on the guy. Jon didn't even remember or seem to have control of what he was doing.

We know warging have nothing to do with being a master swordsman.... So it was something else...

GRRM did the whole scene quietly... He did build it up but let it happen. I think that was GRRM first hint to the readers that Jon was AA...

 

[Ursa major]

Having read the passage concerned - Jon's opponent was Iron Emmett - I don't think Jon was so much in a trance as channelling, in an unconscious way (no pun intended) his anger.

Jon was hit on the temple and "for half a heartbeat" imagined he was sparing with Robb; when, in the reminiscence, Jon had called himself Lord of Winterfell, Robb had replied that he couldn't be, because Jon was *******-born.

So what's being described is sometrhing like the Red Mist, a condition not dependant on any sort of warging or magic.

 

[Pilpel]

I just looked it up, it's the last Jon chapter in ASOS.

As for the trance, it's just like Ursa Major said, it was caused the blow to temple he got from Iron Emmet.
It's strange however, that on a day that Jon didn't sleep, and appears to be exhausted (add to that the fact Iron Emmet's been pounding on him for a while) he manages to find the strength to splinter Emmett's shield and knock him down.
Where did that strength come from? Anger doesn't usually give people that kind of power

 

[Mesanna]

I just looked it up, it's the last Jon chapter in ASOS.

Where did that strength come from? Anger doesn't usually give people that kind of power

Possibly anger doesn't, but adrenaline surely does. Have you never heard stories about grannies lifting a car to free a trapped child? People occasionally show amazing bursts of strength when faced with extraordinary circumstances. I think a combination of the red mist & adrenaline was all that happened here.

 

[The Imp]

I just looked it up, it's the last Jon chapter in ASOS.

As for the trance, it's just like Ursa Major said, it was caused the blow to temple he got from Iron Emmet.
It's strange however, that on a day that Jon didn't sleep, and appears to be exhausted (add to that the fact Iron Emmet's been pounding on him for a while) he manages to find the strength to splinter Emmett's shield and knock him down.
Where did that strength come from? Anger doesn't usually give people that kind of power

Anger will almost alwats result in a release of adrenaline, so I'd disagree with your statement, and say that anger would definitely result in greater strength than would be normal for that individual

 

[garion77]

Anger will almost alwats result in a release of adrenaline, so I'd disagree with your statement, and say that anger would definitely result in greater strength than would be normal for that individual

I think everyone is missing something... When you get dazed, you don't get stronger or faster. I boxed... I trained boxers... When someone hit you in the temple, you lose control of your body. You stand their defenseless... It happened to me a few times boxing and playing football.

And Jon was day dreaming about Robb... If it would have been Theon or someone he hated he saw in place of Iron Emmett, I would understand. Jon was not even in his body doing the fight to use Adrenaline. You need an object to focus your anger and adrenaline towards. Jon was just thinking about his child hood...

I repeat... A dazed man who is hit in the temple don't become a better fighter. He just stand there looking dazed... And Emmett compared him to the Halfhand... And we know the Halfhand was a badass... Jon skills not just strenght drastically improved...

Something or someone else took over Jon's body while he was in dream land. I think that was the first time AA was able to take control. Which make sense... Jon had to be gone before AA can take over... I think this and Jon's death at the end of ADWD is connected..

 

[viZion]

I think the simplest answer here is the best. He was angry. He had an adrenaline rush. He won the fight. Anything's possible of course but I think you're reaching a bit too deeply here.

At the very least, if you're right you can always point back to this thread and say, "I told you so!".

 

[The Imp]

I think everyone is missing something... When you get dazed, you don't get stronger or faster. I boxed... I trained boxers... When someone hit you in the temple, you lose control of your body. You stand their defenseless... It happened to me a few times boxing and playing football.

And Jon was day dreaming about Robb... If it would have been Theon or someone he hated he saw in place of Iron Emmett, I would understand. Jon was not even in his body doing the fight to use Adrenaline. You need an object to focus your anger and adrenaline towards. Jon was just thinking about his child hood...

I repeat... A dazed man who is hit in the temple don't become a better fighter. He just stand there looking dazed... And Emmett compared him to the Halfhand... And we know the Halfhand was a badass... Jon skills not just strenght drastically improved...

Something or someone else took over Jon's body while he was in dream land. I think that was the first time AA was able to take control. Which make sense... Jon had to be gone before AA can take over... I think this and Jon's death at the end of ADWD is connected..

I just re-read the passage, and my take is that "hearing" Robb say that he could never be Lord of Winterfell sent Jon into a rage that enabled him to easily defeat Iron Emmett. Yje blow to the head cuased the flashback, the flashback caused the rage, the rage enabled Jon to fight much better than he usually would.

Oh, btw, iron Emmett didn't compare him to The Halfhand, he said that he knew what The Halfhand must have felt fighting Jon. Not quite the same thing.

 

[garion77]

I just re-read the passage, and my take is that "hearing" Robb say that he could never be Lord of Winterfell sent Jon into a rage that enabled him to easily defeat Iron Emmett. Yje blow to the head cuased the flashback, the flashback caused the rage, the rage enabled Jon to fight much better than he usually would.

Oh, btw, iron Emmett didn't compare him to The Halfhand, he said that he knew what The Halfhand must have felt fighting Jon. Not quite the same thing.

It's nowhere in the passage that say Jon went into a rage... His dream wasn't all about Robb saying he couldn't be lord of winterfell... I was about a few different things. And when a character go in a rage, like the Hound did, GRRM state it...

Jon wasn't mentally in the fight... How could he go into this rage day dreaming? That don't make sense... I fought in the ring and in the field... No one ever become a better warrior day dreaming...

Jon mind wasn't in the fight because he was dazed... And Jon fought like he never have at that moment. He been called a ******* and spit on by everyone. How can a simple day dream send him all of a sudden in a rage like never before? I am sure that wasn't the first time Jon thought about Robbs words...

 

[The Imp]

It's nowhere in the passage that say Jon went into a rage... His dream wasn't all about Robb saying he couldn't be lord of winterfell... I was about a few different things. And when a character go in a rage, like the Hound did, GRRM state it...

Jon wasn't mentally in the fight... How could he go into this rage day dreaming? That don't make sense... I fought in the ring and in the field... No one ever become a better warrior day dreaming...

Jon mind wasn't in the fight because he was dazed... And Jon fought like he never have at that moment. He been called a ******* and spit on by everyone. How can a simple day dream send him all of a sudden in a rage like never before? I am sure that wasn't the first time Jon thought about Robbs words...

jon's adrenaline already had to be pumping given that Iron Emmett always gave him a great fight. He got dazed and "heard" Robbs words. My inference is that he went into a blind rage when that happened and took Iron Emmett apart. If you want to construct a theory that is more elaborate and ties into AA, that's fine, but I personally don't see any evidence for it any more than i think Mance is AA because he foght jon in a "superhuman" fashion. I beleive that Jon is AA, but this wouldn't be one of my pieces of evidence if i was making the argument to someone. Sorry

 

[garion77]

jon's adrenaline already had to be pumping given that Iron Emmett always gave him a great fight. He got dazed and "heard" Robbs words. My inference is that he went into a blind rage when that happened and took Iron Emmett apart. If you want to construct a theory that is more elaborate and ties into AA, that's fine, but I personally don't see any evidence for it any more than i think Mance is AA because he foght jon in a "superhuman" fashion. I beleive that Jon is AA, but this wouldn't be one of my pieces of evidence if i was making the argument to someone. Sorry

I hear what you saying friend. It is vague but it's a reason behind GRRM putting this in the beginning of Jon's POV... Jon isn't good enough swordsman to be AA as is... At least that what I think... And I can't see Jon getting too much better before the last books. Jaime would take Jon apart in a sword fight if he had his hand...

Mance took Jon apart with ease... Jon need to get a lot better very fast... It's going to take more than a glowing sword to lead men against the Others. The man who wields the true Lightbringer, will need to be beyond a good swordsman... He will need to be the best... And Jon is nowhere near the best. GRRM show us that at every turn. I believe it's a reason why GRRM is letting us witness Jon's butt whippings...

 

[Tywin]

The author used that passage to give us insight into the character's hidden emotions, dreams, and desires.

George RR Martin is a fat man who writes fantasy fiction (probably not someone with much certifiable first-hand experience of getting beat on the head with a sword), I don't know if we gain much insight into the story by debating whether or not a character would become a better swordsman by daydreaming or not. It's certainly a plot device that's used by other writers frequently.

 

[The Imp]

I hear what you saying friend. It is vague but it's a reason behind GRRM putting this in the beginning of Jon's POV... Jon isn't good enough swordsman to be AA as is... At least that what I think... And I can't see Jon getting too much better before the last books. Jaime would take Jon apart in a sword fight if he had his hand...

Mance took Jon apart with ease... Jon need to get a lot better very fast... It's going to take more than a glowing sword to lead men against the Others. The man who wields the true Lightbringer, will need to be beyond a good swordsman... He will need to be the best... And Jon is nowhere near the best. GRRM show us that at every turn. I believe it's a reason why GRRM is letting us witness Jon's butt whippings...

I must admit that I've never thought about AA reborn needing to be the best swordsman "in the world" (so to speak). If that's true, then Jon is never going to be AA, and the short list changes dramatically. I'd have to give this more thought, but my initial instinct is to say that it's the sword (Lightbringer0 not the swordsman.

 

[viZion]

I must admit that I've never thought about AA reborn needing to be the best swordsman "in the world" (so to speak). If that's true, then Jon is never going to be AA, and the short list changes dramatically. I'd have to give this more thought, but my initial instinct is to say that it's the sword (Lightbringer0 not the swordsman.

I think you never thought of it because it has nothing to do with the themes in the series. This series isn't about who the most awesome swordsman or who has the biggest fireball spell. That's Malazan. Garion, you might be missing the fundamental themes running through this series.

Here's a start: Arguably the two most powerful people that we've met are Varys and Illyrio and neither one could take on anyone in a sword fight much less ride a dragon. Varys doesn't even own any significant lands or have direct control over any armies. Dany *can* ride a dragon but, again, couldn't take anyone in a sword fight and there's a possibility that she is Azor Ahai. Maester Aemon certainly thought she might be.

The point is, it's really not about who has the most physical power or the command of the most people. The underlying theme is that the world is pushed and pulled by forces far greater than the obvious ones like kings and queens.

 

[Koopa]

You're short-selling the malazan books imo.
More like thats David eddings work, with one one of the primary characters being conveniently (Bel)Garion.

 

[The Imp]

I think you never thought of it because it has nothing to do with the themes in the series. This series isn't about who the most awesome swordsman or who has the biggest fireball spell. That's Malazan. Garion, you might be missing the fundamental themes running through this series.

Here's a start: Arguably the two most powerful people that we've met are Varys and Illyrio and neither one could take on anyone in a sword fight much less ride a dragon. Varys doesn't even own any significant lands or have direct control over any armies. Dany *can* ride a dragon but, again, couldn't take anyone in a sword fight and there's a possibility that she is Azor Ahai. Maester Aemon certainly thought she might be.

The point is, it's really not about who has the most physical power or the command of the most people. The underlying theme is that the world is pushed and pulled by forces far greater than the obvious ones like kings and queens.

You make an excellent point Viz. In thinking about what my conception of AA has been, I think I've pictured an almost Messanic figure wielding aLightbringer and uniting the living against the undead, but it's not even clear that GRRM's endgame involves AA. He has led us to believe that it will, but he's led us to believe other things which have not come to pass.

BTW, I'd add Littlefinger to your short list of power players in this series. I'd also say that as a pure fighter, Arya may become as formidable as anyone, at least once her training is done. The combination of being a FM, warg and a great swordsman (I think she eventually will be as she gains physical maturity) would be too much for almost any opponent.

 

[garion77]

I think you never thought of it because it has nothing to do with the themes in the series. This series isn't about who the most awesome swordsman or who has the biggest fireball spell. That's Malazan. Garion, you might be missing the fundamental themes running through this series.

Here's a start: Arguably the two most powerful people that we've met are Varys and Illyrio and neither one could take on anyone in a sword fight much less ride a dragon. Varys doesn't even own any significant lands or have direct control over any armies. Dany *can* ride a dragon but, again, couldn't take anyone in a sword fight and there's a possibility that she is Azor Ahai. Maester Aemon certainly thought she might be.

The point is, it's really not about who has the most physical power or the command of the most people. The underlying theme is that the world is pushed and pulled by forces far greater than the obvious ones like kings and queens.

I beg to differ on some of your points. GRRM make it a habit of letting us know Character's fighting skills. It does play a huge part in the series. That's why Jaime lost his hand. He constantly tell us how good a swordsman Jaime were or how good Sir Author Dayne were... And why even make a sword (lightbringer) if the man who has it isn't the best? Make him a staff if it all in the object... Make him a magic necklace... Why a sword...

And why do GRRM constantly update us on Jon's sword skill progression? He focus on Jon's fighting skills with the sword more than any character in the book... Just like he constantly update us on Dany's Dragon training... It's a reason behind that... The sword is to Jon as the Dragon's is to Dany... Her Dragons is her sword... She don't need sword skills because that what the Dragons are for...

We know Jaime was awsome with the sword but no book time showing him practicing... We know the Hound was good with the sword but no practice time showing his strenghts and weaknesses... But with Jon we are following his skill level with each book. He got challenged from the Queen's knight to sparr and people constantly testing him. No other character has been challenged at sword play more than Jon...

And Vary and littlefinger all are movers and shakers... With the living... But that's not Jon's purpose... He is facing enemies who don't care about politics or gold... The Others can't be bribed... Who ever AA is whether Jon or someone else is a real badass... The original sacrificed his wife to make Lightbringer...

I believe weilding a magic sword is like magic spells to spell casters or wargs... It does matter how good you are...

 

[The Imp]

I beg to differ on some of your points. GRRM make it a habit of letting us know Character's fighting skills. It does play a huge part in the series. That's why Jaime lost his hand. He constantly tell us how good a swordsman Jaime were or how good Sir Author Dayne were... And why even make a sword (lightbringer) if the man who has it isn't the best? Make him a staff if it all in the object... Make him a magic necklace... Why a sword...

And why do GRRM constantly update us on Jon's sword skill progression? He focus on Jon's fighting skills with the sword more than any character in the book... Just like he constantly update us on Dany's Dragon training... It's a reason behind that... The sword is to Jon as the Dragon's is to Dany... Her Dragons is her sword... She don't need sword skills because that what the Dragons are for...

We know Jaime was awsome with the sword but no book time showing him practicing... We know the Hound was good with the sword but no practice time showing his strenghts and weaknesses... But with Jon we are following his skill level with each book. He got challenged from the Queen's knight to sparr and people constantly testing him. No other character has been challenged at sword play more than Jon...

And Vary and littlefinger all are movers and shakers... With the living... But that's not Jon's purpose... He is facing enemies who don't care about politics or gold... The Others can't be bribed... Who ever AA is whether Jon or someone else is a real badass... The original sacrificed his wife to make Lightbringer...

I believe weilding a magic sword is like magic spells to spell casters or wargs... It does matter how good you are...

you make good points, but almost every great physical warrior/military person in aSoIaF has been defeated or in some way been disempowered. Gregor, Oberyn, Ned Stark, Brienne, Strong Belwas, Sandor, Berric Dondarieon, Loras, BF Selmy (old age), Syrio (maybe), Jorah, Tywin, etc. The people behind the scenes wield the power and "keep paddling along". I don't think GRRM is going to take the "he who has the biggest...sword will win" route.