(Spoiler Alert) Why Jon Snow AA

Samwell said:
Jon is the best swordsman Westeros ever had. He can defeat a thousand full-handed Jaimes, and bind them to the stones of Casterly Rock. Just wait for the Others to come, and you see what happens to the jousting knights.
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Too much wine at the Wildling Kitchen all you can eat buffet? "D
 
Samwell said:
Jon is the best swordsman Westeros ever had. He can defeat a thousand full-handed Jaimes, and bind them to the stones of Casterly Rock. Just wait for the Others to come, and you see what happens to the jousting knights.
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I doubt that... Even Robb was taken back by Jaime's skills when he was cutting his way to kill Robb in the Whispering Woods...

But Sam the slayer would take Jaime out with ease....LOL
 
Robb was taken aback... but Robb won. A crushing victory.

This always goes back to GRRM's theme that swordplay and individual heroism fails against leadership, strategy, and political maneuvering.
 
Tywin said:
Robb was taken aback... but Robb won. A crushing victory.

This always goes back to GRRM's theme that swordplay and individual heroism fails against leadership, strategy, and political maneuvering.
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Robb did win... He won every battle but lost the war... GRRM also showed that it take more then leadership and strategy to win also... It take ruthlessness sometime to carry the day...

You should know that Lord Tywin...
 
garion77 said:
I think Jon is a pretty decent swordsman. He isn't in the Jaime level but he can hold his own. He was better than Robb and Theon. Robb was better with the Lance while Theon was better with the bow...

The HBO series add some action by putting Ned against Jaime... But in the books Jaime would have cut Ned down in two seconds...

I like the interview GRRM did while the interviewer asked how good Ned was with the sword. GRRM said Ned was decent but Brandon was the true swordsman. I think he was better than Jaime. He wanted to fight Rhaegar one on one over his sister... By all accounts I think he would have won...

I think Aery is more Brandon than Ned...
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I think you have seriously underestimated Ned's ability. This is the same man who bested Arthur Dayne in single combat, and the man that fought beside Robert to helped him to win the Iron Throne. We'll never get to see the hypothetical fight between Ned and Jaime, but I bet the Ned would have given Jaime all he could handle, and more.
 
The Imp said:
I think you have seriously underestimated Ned's ability. This is the same man who bested Arthur Dayne in single combat, and the man that fought beside Robert to helped him to win the Iron Throne. We'll never get to see the hypothetical fight between Ned and Jaime, but I bet the Ned would have given Jaime all he could handle, and more.
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It was seven (Ned and friends) against three King Guards... And Arthur Dayne would have killed Ned if it wasn't for Roland Reed... Even Ned admitted that... And yes Ned did help Robert win the Iron Throne but with brains not Braun... Ned isn't a one on one fighter no more than Rob were...

Jaime before missing sword hand was all fight and no brains... Jaime without sword hand actuallly thinks... Even when Briana was helping him escape, Jaime was a complete asshole... Up until they sliced his hand off...

GRRM said in the interview Ned wasn't top tier swordsman... He said Brandon Stark held that title in house Stark...

Brandon was a badass with the sword but didn't think much when he marched into KL and got himself killed... Ned would have never done that...
 
garion77 said:
GRRM also showed that it take more then leadership and strategy to win also... It take ruthlessness sometime to carry the day....
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I seem to recall that Jon Connington lost the Battle of the Bells because he wasn't ruthless enough.
 
Ursa major said:
I seem to recall that Jon Connington lost the Battle of the Bells because he wasn't ruthless enough.
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That's what make Jon Connington likable...

In one of Connington flashbacks he was told if Lord Tywin was fighting Robert at the Battle of the Bells, the resistance would have ended there... Tywin would have presented Ned and Jon Arryn Robert's bones because he would have burned down the entire town...

And Tyrion also made a telling statement about Lord Tywin... He said Danny knew nothing about sieges because if Lord Tywin was besieged like Danny were, he would have poisoned every water well within miles of the city and let the sieging army die of thirst and disease... Even though it would have cause the death of many innocent people as well.... But he would have won...

That's why Danny need Tyrion councel if she plan on winning against the mercenary armies... She is surrounded by honorable men but not military minded lords...

Even Jorah said Drogo would have had a very hard time fighting against men like Tywin or Ned because they would sit behind their castles walls and wait out the invaders unlike Robert who would meet them in open fields...

Lord Tywin had to die because Danny would have lost against him just like Robb did... Her Dragons isn't big enough to really turn the tide of battle in a major conflict.

Lord Tywin was smart, ruthless, experienced, and had a lot of money...

Everyone talk about how peaceful and prosperous the seven kingdom were when the mad king was ruler... Everyone said the only reason the seven kingdom were prosperous is because Lord Tywin kept everything together. He ran the seven kingdom... And the minute he left, the kingdom fell apart and into war...
 
So! I was rereading some chapters here and there from ADWD, and in the chapter where Jon is with Bowen Marsh, Examining the store rooms... There is this .... [Forgive the lengthy book quote, Underlined parts are the focus here..]

"
...In the granaries were oats and wheat and barley, and barrels of coarse ground flour. In the root
cellars strings of onions and garlic dangled from the rafters, and bags of carrots, parsnips, radishes, and
white and yellow turnips filled the shelves. One storeroom held wheels of cheese so large it took two
men to move them. In the next, casks of salt beef, salt pork, salt mutton, and salt cod were stacked ten
feet high. Three hundred hams and three thousand long black sausages hung from ceiling beams below
the smokehouse. In the spice locker they found peppercorns, cloves, and cinnamon, mustard seeds,
coriander, sage and clary sage and parsley, blocks of salt. Elsewhere were casks of apples and pears,
dried peas, dried figs, bags of walnuts, bags of chestnuts, bags of almonds, planks of dry smoked salmon,
clay jars packed with olives in oil and sealed with wax. One storeroom offered potted hare, haunch of
deer in honey, pickled cabbage, pickled beets, pickled onions, pickled eggs, and pickled herring.
As they moved from one vault to another, the wormways seemed to grow colder. Before long
​
​
Jon could see their breath frosting in the lantern light. “We’re beneath the Wall.”
“And soon inside it,” said Marsh. “The meat won’t spoil in the cold. For long storage, it’s better
than salting.”​



Salt... Check Smoke... Check, Being reborn around such things? Well.. He's "dead" now... Thus being reborn is a possibility... The only part that matters is how he ends up here after "dying" outside..the cold will undoubtedly keep his corpse fresh..so to speak.. These things make more sense to me then the whole "Bowens tears were salt and smoke" theory... Though the bleeding star (The knight that Wun wun is flinging about) still would stand... I dunno.. Just putting in my 2 cents.​
 
The Imp said:
I don't think it's fair to say that Jon isn't "good". He has alwyas fought fairly well when he has needed to, and did well against a Mance Rayder that had a disinct advatantage over him. He loves to practice because he was brought up that way (as Garion said). Jon has been learning since he was a boy, it's in his blood.
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It has been a long time since I have read the first few books. I had thought that when John was given Long Claw, that he, John, did not think he was good enough to rate it. So he went to work and worked very hard to improve.

I like that John has to work at things. That it is not just "in his blood".
 
grip junky said:
It has been a long time since I have read the first few books. I had thought that when John was given Long Claw, that he, John, did not think he was good enough to rate it. So he went to work and worked very hard to improve.

I like that John has to work at things. That it is not just "in his blood".
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Jon thought he wasn't worthy of a blade made of Valyrian steel. jon was skilled enough so the Ser Allsiar used to send two or three recruits at him at the same time. I'm not arguing that his skills didn't improve over time, in fact, I'd say that the whole point of daily training in any martial art is to constantly improve. I remember back when I studied karate my sensei used to train harder than anyone in the dojo, and he was on the cover of Karate Illustrated (a couple of times) by that point in his career.

Jon was around 16 or so at that point in the series? About the same age that both Jaime and BFS both won their Knighthoods. I'm not comparing him to either one of them, but i don't think he was the inferior. swordsman that many have been describing him has.
 
I thought that when he got to the wall, and he was beating all the other recruits he was pulled aside and told not to get to cocky, that he was not as good as he thinks he is. That most of the other recruits had not held a sword before they got to the wall or something like that.

For me the whole thing, is he good with the sword or not was not the point. The point is that to work on something that he does not think he is good at is one of the many things that proves his character to me. His character is why he is a leader.
 
I thought that when he got to the wall, and he was beating all the other recruits he was pulled aside and told not to get to cocky, that he was not as good as he thinks he is. That most of the other recruits had not held a sword before they got to the wall or something like that.
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I think you hit on another theme here. When Tyrion pulled him aside what he coached Jon to be was a leader. Jon started leading those other boys (men) and made them better fighters who would 1. Stand beside and protect him, and 2. Be better at protecting him because of their superior skills.

Back to real world application/experience: Back when I was a battery commander I used to say that my weapon was not the M4 I carried... my weapon was the 190 Soldiers of my battery.
 
The Imp said:
Jon thought he wasn't worthy of a blade made of Valyrian steel. jon was skilled enough so the Ser Allsiar used to send two or three recruits at him at the same time. I'm not arguing that his skills didn't improve over time, in fact, I'd say that the whole point of daily training in any martial art is to constantly improve. I remember back when I studied karate my sensei used to train harder than anyone in the dojo, and he was on the cover of Karate Illustrated (a couple of times) by that point in his career.

Jon was around 16 or so at that point in the series? About the same age that both Jaime and BFS both won their Knighthoods. I'm not comparing him to either one of them, but i don't think he was the inferior. swordsman that many have been describing him has.
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grip junky said:
I thought that when he got to the wall, and he was beating all the other recruits he was pulled aside and told not to get to cocky, that he was not as good as he thinks he is. That most of the other recruits had not held a sword before they got to the wall or something like that.

For me the whole thing, is he good with the sword or not was not the point. The point is that to work on something that he does not think he is good at is one of the many things that proves his character to me. His character is why he is a leader.
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Yes it seems to me that Jon did not so much doubt his skill with a blade as much as he doubted his overall worthiness to carry a Valyrian steel blade, since he is a ******* who knew such a blade was one of many things he would never possess.

When he came to the wall he was skilled but of course not the best. Allister hated him yet still used him to further humiliate the other recruits until Donel pointed out to him that he was fighting boys who had never even held a sword. This took quite the chunk out of Jon's arrogance and brought out his protective side.

I believe Jon is becoming a great leader. GRRM has gone out of his way, at times quite tediously, (aka Dany in aDWD) to show us what happens when a leader cares to much for the little people or an individual or small group and forgets the big picture. He has also given us many examples of the opposite, the resentment and hatred which builds when leaders care for nothing but their own power. Jon is finding the middle ground by doing what needs to be done for everyone's benefit, not for his own power trip, yet he never forgets there are real people involved and how it may effect them.
 
The Imp said:
Jon thought he wasn't worthy of a blade made of Valyrian steel. jon was skilled enough so the Ser Allsiar used to send two or three recruits at him at the same time. I'm not arguing that his skills didn't improve over time, in fact, I'd say that the whole point of daily training in any martial art is to constantly improve. I remember back when I studied karate my sensei used to train harder than anyone in the dojo, and he was on the cover of Karate Illustrated (a couple of times) by that point in his career.

Jon was around 16 or so at that point in the series? About the same age that both Jaime and BFS both won their Knighthoods. I'm not comparing him to either one of them, but i don't think he was the inferior. swordsman that many have been describing him has.
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But it was something else also that Jon thought when Lord Mormont gave him his sword... Jon was thinking it was another man's sword he really wanted... His father Ned Stark's sword...

Jon is a good swordsman and probably one day become an excellent swordsman... But remember, Jaime had Sir Arthur Dayne as his teacher and the other great swordsmen of the Kingsguard... Jon don't have that... Mance could become a good teacher but with Mance, who knows...

I use to think Jon needed great sword skills to wield Lightbringer... But I come to realize Lightbringer isn't a sword... Lightbringer is the Nights Watch itself...

GRRM is throwing us all off with all the Jon sword practice... Jon will fight the Others with Longclaw... But his true blazing sword will be his brothers... The NW...
 
Guys, I have been thinking about something with Jon's whole death at the end of the book... Mel was their when Jon was reading the letter from Ramsey... But they said she left without a word and soon after Jon was murdered by Marsh... A few things happened that got my attention...

When the first guy attacked Jon and scratch his neck... Jon said the guy looked apologetic when he attacked and Jon hand became numb reaching for Longclaw... I think the first cut was a numbing poison from Mel... She knew what Jon was going to do and faked his death with the help of Marsh...

I think Mel finally realized that Jon is AA... I believe Mel and Marsh faked Jon's death without Jon knowing what they were going to do... I think Jon might be going to Winterfell but not with an Army... Even he admitted to Stannis that bring a bunch of Wildlings North would rally every Northmen against them... So why were Jon going to do the very thing he advised Stannis not to do? He is smarter than that...

The more I write the more things don't make sense... Why would Jon march a wildling army to Winterfell when he had just advised Stannis not to?

I think Jon used the fake march on Winterfell to expose the NW who was plotting against him... I just can't see Marsh plot getting past Mel... Mel said something telling in one of the earlier books... She said if she was at the Blackwaters, Stannis would not have lost... She would have expose Tyrion traps before they happened...

One more theory guys... What if Mel glamored Jon? What if the guy who Jon had prison was glamoured to look like Jon? The one who wanted to bring the Umber girl back... Mel knew he was a traitor and plotting against Stannis... Sacrificing him wouldn't be a big deal... She made Mance look like Rattleshirt so why not do the same with Jon? And the guy would need Jon's cloths and Longclaw to make the glamor work... Mel promised the guy something for pretending to be Jon. So he was very surprised when he was attacked... Just another theory...
 
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Garion- I really commend you for the pererverance and insight that you've demonstrated in the short time you've been posting here. You've made some really good points, but alas, Needle posted this quite a while ago and I think it covers all or most of what your recent posts have been about. Keep up the good work though, and keep on thinking about this stuff. The NW be Lightbringer is IMO a birlliant insight :)

Originally Posted by Needle
Crackpot theory-Jon is not dead because Jon is not Jon update:
Will do my best here to put it all together.


Magic we know can and has been done: reanimation of the dead, glamour of one person to look like another, a warg ability to take over another.


Okay, Mel knows Jon is in great danger, would she just let him die and hope to bring him back, short answer no. As far as Jon knows, Arya is all that is left of his family (and his favorite besides), he cannot just let Ramsey have her. Mel tells Jon “Look to the sky for answers, when you get them come to me.” I believe he did just that after reading Ramsey’s letter. It is stated that he had a 2 hour meeting between reading and going to his “death” it did not take that long for Jon and Tourmand to get their plot together. Ghost and the raven know something is up (granted this is before Jon gets the letter) but if they could sense Jon was in danger they could sense what was about to happen, Ghost goes so far as to bite at Jon, and had he been allowed to go with Jon it would not have worked. So he remains locked up.

I had already figured Mel had glamoured someone to look like Jon, my sticking point was who? They would have to be willing, and would Jon allow someone he trusted, that was willing to do such a thing do it, probably not.

Now for the connecting pieces, I give credit here where credit is due: To Imp, for reminding us of those bodies locked in their cells that must be there for a reason, and to my son for saying “Doesn’t Rhallor give the power to raise the dead, what about those bodies?”

If Cat can be brought back after rotting in the water for days, a semi frozen body should be easy.

So this is what happened, Mel breathes life (a semblance of one anyway) into a convienent body, glamours it look like Jon, Jon goes into it long enough to make that stupid speech (after being convinced by Mel and Borug(the guy with the boar) that he can do this), body gets killed, Jon picks up Ghost, who is really freakin out cause Jon in a dead body really upsets him. Now I believe the wildlings may well go on to Winterfell, will Jon go with them or it was that only part of the plan to draw out the danger, I don’t know.

All of this allows Jon to rid himself of those standing in the way of what must be done, it also lets him keep his friends. I say this because he is of the North, in the North, followed by the North. If he is brought back by Mel, he becomes Un-Jon, someone the northerners would view as an other, even if he can go into Ghost while his body dies, they would still hold this view. To warg is acceptable even valued, as long it does not involve taking another person. A dead body, with the potential to be an other, would surely not count.



I rest my case and claim bragging rights when this all proves true!:D If it doesn’t we will just forget that I may have gone crazy!;)
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Garion, I too think you may really have nailed it with the NW as Lightbringer theory, it could be perfect!
 
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