(Spoiler Alert) Why Jon Snow AA

[garion77]

you make good points, but almost every great physical warrior/military person in aSoIaF has been defeated or in some way been disempowered. Gregor, Oberyn, Ned Stark, Brienne, Strong Belwas, Sandor, Berric Dondarieon, Loras, BF Selmy (old age), Syrio (maybe), Jorah, Tywin, etc. The people behind the scenes wield the power and "keep paddling along". I don't think GRRM is going to take the "he who has the biggest...sword will win" route.

I agree... But the whole Jon progression with his sword training is very obvious... We saw the other guys sword skills but not their progression in those skills like Jon. All those people you named are pretty much at their max in fighting skill... Jon is a work in progress and GRRM is clearly showing us that with the practice scenes...

When GRRM put Jon against Mance he showed us that Jon isn't ready... I don't think the "who has the biggest sword" is all the series about but it matters. When it all said and done like in all things, the sword has the last word... The smartest civilization rarely survive... It's usually the most aggressive...

And GRRM is making a big deal in the series about Lightbringer... He even told us of it's origin and the sacrifice AA had to make to forge the sword. The man who wield Lightbringer will be very good at using it... He will need to be to stand any chance against the Others...

And i would love a book about the original AA... That would be one awsome story...

 

[Tywin]

I beg to differ on some of your points. GRRM make it a habit of letting us know Character's fighting skills. It does play a huge part in the series. That's why Jaime lost his hand. He constantly tell us how good a swordsman Jaime were or how good Sir Author Dayne were... And why even make a sword (lightbringer) if the man who has it isn't the best? Make him a staff if it all in the object... Make him a magic necklace... Why a sword...

And why do GRRM constantly update us on Jon's sword skill progression? He focus on Jon's fighting skills with the sword more than any character in the book... Just like he constantly update us on Dany's Dragon training... It's a reason behind that... The sword is to Jon as the Dragon's is to Dany... Her Dragons is her sword... She don't need sword skills because that what the Dragons are for...

We know Jaime was awsome with the sword but no book time showing him practicing... We know the Hound was good with the sword but no practice time showing his strenghts and weaknesses... But with Jon we are following his skill level with each book. He got challenged from the Queen's knight to sparr and people constantly testing him. No other character has been challenged at sword play more than Jon...

And Vary and littlefinger all are movers and shakers... With the living... But that's not Jon's purpose... He is facing enemies who don't care about politics or gold... The Others can't be bribed... Who ever AA is whether Jon or someone else is a real badass... The original sacrificed his wife to make Lightbringer...

I believe weilding a magic sword is like magic spells to spell casters or wargs... It does matter how good you are...

I agree with Imp that I think this approach is missing the major themes that the author pursues. The entire series has been about showing that ability in combat is next to irrelevant to succeeding at holding power/changing the world. He mentions the "prowess" of characters in order to highlight that fact when they are defeated/outmaneuvered. And he goes out of his way to show the invincibility of characters in combat before letting them fall. For example:

Tywin Lannister:invincible powerhouse military commander and politician - killed while on the privy

Robb Stark:the Young Wolf who ran through enemy armies like they were made of warm butter - killed at a wedding

Ned Stark: Powerful northern lord who was the iron-hard general who had secured the throne for Robert Baratheon - beheaded almost by accident at the command of a 13 year old brat

Jaime Lannister: Perhaps the best illustration - Jaime didn't become an effective leader or a character that we liked until after losing his hand. Before losing the hand he was reckless, arrogant, and felt invincible which led to his defeat by the Young Wolf. After losing his hand GRR Martin takes us through the spiritual/emotional/moral transition of Jaime Lannister where because of his handicap he is forced to use his brains and a moral code to get things accomplished.

As for Jon Snow, GRR Martin is using those practice sessions to build the character for us. He uses those passages to narrate the inner workings of Jon's ambitions, desires, and guilt and he also is highlighting the Stark spirit of the character that he works hard to make himself better and set an example for his men even if he gets beat up.

 

[garion77]

I agree with Imp that I think this approach is missing the major themes that the author pursues. The entire series has been about showing that ability in combat is next to irrelevant to succeeding at holding power/changing the world. He mentions the "prowess" of characters in order to highlight that fact when they are defeated/outmaneuvered. And he goes out of his way to show the invincibility of characters in combat before letting them fall. For example:

Tywin Lannister:invincible powerhouse military commander and politician - killed while on the privy

Robb Stark:the Young Wolf who ran through enemy armies like they were made of warm butter - killed at a wedding

Ned Stark: Powerful northern lord who was the iron-hard general who had secured the throne for Robert Baratheon - beheaded almost by accident at the command of a 13 year old brat

Jaime Lannister: Perhaps the best illustration - Jaime didn't become an effective leader or a character that we liked until after losing his hand. Before losing the hand he was reckless, arrogant, and felt invincible which led to his defeat by the Young Wolf. After losing his hand GRR Martin takes us through the spiritual/emotional/moral transition of Jaime Lannister where because of his handicap he is forced to use his brains and a moral code to get things accomplished.

As for Jon Snow, GRR Martin is using those practice sessions to build the character for us. He uses those passages to narrate the inner workings of Jon's ambitions, desires, and guilt and he also is highlighting the Stark spirit of the character that he works hard to make himself better and set an example for his men even if he gets beat up.

But even with all of Jaime new found brain power, he is putting even more focus on learning to fight with his left hand... What make GRRM such a good author in my book is his battles isn't won with a big magic spell, or master swordsmen, or super smart politicans who are so clever, they can rule the world with their brains.... In his books, you need a little bit of each...

We know of Jon's Stark honor and upbringing... Hell, he turned down Winterfell and being Lord of the North... Jon sword training don't tell us nothing about his inner character that we don't already know... It SHOW us his weakness in the most important thing he will do (if he is AA) at weilding Lightbringer... Just like Aaery trials at becoming a FM... GRRM shows us her progression in learning her trade... He is doing the same with Jon...

The constant sparring lesson and getting owned by better swordsman have meaning other then "Jon can sure take a good butt whipping".

Jon is taking those butt whipping for bigger reason than to humble him... Being Night Commander and dealing with all the bull that come with it has humbled him more than enough...

 

[Ursa major]

A number of points:

1. When, later in the chapter, Jon wins the position of Lord Commander, he does so through guile, albeit Sam's and not his own. No swordplay was involved, as I recall.
2. A commander** is like an orchestral conductor: neither achieve what they do by wielding the implements of those they lead (swords or instruments), but by controlling those who do.
3. Even if Jon is meant to be a champion swordsman, how does being possessed by a better swordsman help? (Apart from a bit of muscle memory, which isn't going to be instilled in a minute or two, the Jon we see after the fight with Iron Emmett is the same Jon we met before, at least in terms of swordsmanship.)

What GRRM is showing is that Jon is still sensitive (to the point of irrationality) about his bastardy. And it shows how and why Jon is becomes willing to become Lord Commander at the expense of throwing away the title of Lord of Winterfell that Stannis had offered him at the end of Jon's previous chapter.


** - This would be just as true if the post was Lord of Winterfell. Ned went out of his way to explain why he wielded the sword at executions because it was so very unusual; other lords and kings have executioners to do the job for them (Joffrey's being a case in point).

 

[garion77]

A number of points:

1. When, later in the chapter, Jon wins the position of Lord Commander, he does so through guile, albeit Sam's and not his own. No swordplay was involved, as I recall.
2. A commander** is like an orchestral conductor: neither achieve what they do by wielding the implements of those they lead (swords or instruments), but by controlling those who do.
3. Even if Jon is meant to be a champion swordsman, how does being possessed by a better swordsman help? (Apart from a bit of muscle memory, which isn't going to be instilled in a minute or two, the Jon we see after the fight with Iron Emmett is the same Jon we met before, at least in terms of swordsmanship.)

What GRRM is showing is that Jon is still sensitive (to the point of irrationality) about his bastardy. And it shows how and why Jon is becomes willing to become Lord Commander at the expense of throwing away the title of Lord of Winterfell that Stannis had offered him at the end of Jon's previous chapter.


** - This would be just as true if the post was Lord of Winterfell. Ned went out of his way to explain why he wielded the sword at executions because it was so very unusual; other lords and kings have executioners to do the job for them (Joffrey's being a case in point).

Jon wouldn't just be a commander if he get lightbringer... Rhallor will be the orchestral conductor and Jon's his instrument... Jon will be the hero of legend... And Jon just don't have what it take to carry that title yet... He is still a ******* that only half the NW even follow... It's no way the royalty will follow him as he is now...

Something big must happen for Jon to become AA... It wouldn't make any sense if Jon got the sword and all of a sudden people start following a ******* with a glowing sword... You see how well it did for Stannis and he is high born...

But maybe I have been missing something... What if Lightbringer is just a methafor... What if the NW is lightbringer? What if Jon suppose to wield/lead the NW against the darkness... And the whole Yvitte thing and her being "Kissed by fire"... When Jon betrayed Yvitte and she died trying to take the wall, didn't he sacrifice her life for the NW? Isn't it similar to the way Nissa Nissa died tempering Lightbringer with her heart's blood?

When Yvitte died, Jon stop being the boy and became the man... The more I think the less I believe GRRM will make a "magic sword" so important... His entire series has been about the characters, not magic or objects... That's the main reason he didn't make the Dragons full grown... He made it so Dany still need an army...

And I am not sure but when Jon pass the area Yvitte died, don't he still see her blood in his mind? And when Mel said "You know nothing Jon Snow" I knew Yvitte was more than just a wildling girl Jon lost his virginity to... She is Jon's Nissa Nissa...

Just a theory...

 

[The Imp]

But maybe I have been missing something... What if Lightbringer is just a methafor... What if the NW is lightbringer? What if Jon suppose to wield/lead the NW against the darkness... And the whole Yvitte thing and her being "Kissed by fire"... When Jon betrayed Yvitte and she died trying to take the wall, didn't he sacrifice her life for the NW? Isn't it similar to the way Nissa Nissa died tempering Lightbringer with her heart's blood?

When Yvitte died, Jon stop being the boy and became the man... The more I think the less I believe GRRM will make a "magic sword" so important... His entire series has been about the characters, not magic or objects... That's the main reason he didn't make the Dragons full grown... He made it so Dany still need an army...

And I am not sure but when Jon pass the area Yvitte died, don't he still see her blood in his mind? And when Mel said "You know nothing Jon Snow" I knew Yvitte was more than just a wildling girl Jon lost his virginity to... She is Jon's Nissa Nissa...

Just a theory...

See, THIS is the stuff that great crackpot theories come from. Bravo Garion.

 

[Ursa major]

I agree with The Imp: an excellent theory, Garion.

The idea that a prophecy handed down through the ages is about a real, specific sword, one in the hands of a particular man, is just too limiting. The event up to which the series is building concerns the fate of that world (the whole world, as Meddler has suggested in his Others and Religion thread). One man swinging a sword - however divinely inspired the man, however magical the sword - simply isn't going to cut it.

Forces are being drawn to the battle from all over that world and someone needs to weld them into an army equipped and able to take the field with a chance of succeeding.

 

[Wiggum]

This series isn't about who the most awesome swordsman or who has the biggest fireball spell. That's Malazan.

That made me laugh.

And I'm a Malazan fan.

 

[viZion]

And Vary and littlefinger all are movers and shakers... With the living... But that's not Jon's purpose... He is facing enemies who don't care about politics or gold... The Others can't be bribed... Who ever AA is whether Jon or someone else is a real badass... The original sacrificed his wife to make Lightbringer...

How do you know that Varys isn't doing all that he's doing in an effort to fight the Others? You're the one that pointed out that maybe the reason he wants Dany back is because he thinks the only way to fight the Others is with dragons.

Then again, he's been working to the put the Targaryens back on the throne since long before dragons came back into the world so he couldn't be counting on using dragons to fight the Others. I guess his motivations remain as mysterious as ever.

Anyway, I'm with the others in thinking that Jon's training sessions are nothing more than a storytelling device to get us inside his mind. This part, however, is good thinking:

But maybe I have been missing something... What if Lightbringer is just a metaphor... What if the NW is lightbringer? What if Jon suppose to wield/lead the NW against the darkness... And the whole Ygritte thing and her being "Kissed by fire"... When Jon betrayed Ygritte and she died trying to take the wall, didn't he sacrifice her life for the NW? Isn't it similar to the way Nissa Nissa died tempering Lightbringer with her heart's blood?

 

[Tywin]

The metaphor of the burning sword and the NW being the blade is brilliant. What is that part of their oath?

"...I am the sword in the dark."

Something like that, right?

 

[The Imp]

The metaphor of the burning sword and the NW being the blade is brilliant. What is that part of their oath?

"...I am the sword in the dark."

Something like that, right?

I get the chills whenever I read this. BTW, I think that Sam is toting around the horn that matters.

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

 

[garion77]

The metaphor of the burning sword and the NW being the blade is brilliant. What is that part of their oath?

"...I am the sword in the dark."

Something like that, right?

Absolutely... The other part of their oath is even more telling... I am the sword in the dark that protect the realm of men... Protect the realm of men against who? The Others...

The whole AA and Nissa Nissa story don't make sense... It remind you of some of Old Nan tales... Part is true but part is old wives tale... Like the Rat king and all those tales... Part is true but most is wive tales...

And for Jon to become AA in the way Mel describe, he will need to follow Rhallor... Jon worship the Old Gods... He won't change that for anyone...

And I don't think AA actually thrust his sword threw Nissa Nissa heart... I think he broke her heart when he went off to fight the darkness... In her eyes he might as well have thrust the sword through her heart...

Just like Jon did to Yvitte... The only thing Jon had to do is forsake his vows and he could have been with the woman he loved... But he chose duty over love... And in his choice, he caused Yvitte to be killed... Because if Jon didn't get back to the wall and lead his brothers, the wall would have fell before Stannis ever arrived...

The NW is Lightbringer... And Jon will wield it against the coming darkness. The NW oath say it all...

 

[garion77]

I get the chills whenever I read this. BTW, I think that Sam is toting around the horn that matters.

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

So do I, Imp... Those are the most powerful words of any book I have ever read...

 

[IWargedYourMother]

Not to sound like a derp here or anything.. But.. WTF is AA?

 

[Ursa major]

For those who really don't know, AA = Azor Ahai.

Azor Ahai is a legendary hero who defeated the Others. There's a prophecy that Azor Ahai will be born again.

This thread is asking about an incident at the beginning of Jon's last chapter in A Storm of Swords, in the context of Jon's possible candidature for being the reborn Azor Ahai.

 

[grip junky]

Showing John taking his lumps and getting better shows his charactor to his men. Working on something that you are not good is one of the leadership traits. His charactor is why men will follow him.

 

[garion77]

Showing John taking his lumps and getting better shows his charactor to his men. Working on something that you are not good is one of the leadership traits. His charactor is why men will follow him.

Well... He was raised by Ned Stark... That's the Stark way... Ned executed the men he sentenced to death with his own hands... So did Robb... Jon was raised the same way...

 

[The Imp]

Showing John taking his lumps and getting better shows his charactor to his men. Working on something that you are not good is one of the leadership traits. His charactor is why men will follow him.

I don't think it's fair to say that Jon isn't "good". He has alwyas fought fairly well when he has needed to, and did well against a Mance Rayder that had a disinct advatantage over him. He loves to practice because he was brought up that way (as Garion said). Jon has been learning since he was a boy, it's in his blood.

 

[Tywin]

It's in his blood to be a leader, not a dueler.

Once again the HBO series adds a little to this discussion since they added in a conversation between Ned and Jaime on the difference between dueling/tournaments and actual warfare.

 

[garion77]

It's in his blood to be a leader, not a dueler.

Once again the HBO series adds a little to this discussion since they added in a conversation between Ned and Jaime on the difference between dueling/tournaments and actual warfare.

I think Jon is a pretty decent swordsman. He isn't in the Jaime level but he can hold his own. He was better than Robb and Theon. Robb was better with the Lance while Theon was better with the bow...

The HBO series add some action by putting Ned against Jaime... But in the books Jaime would have cut Ned down in two seconds...

I like the interview GRRM did while the interviewer asked how good Ned was with the sword. GRRM said Ned was decent but Brandon was the true swordsman. I think he was better than Jaime. He wanted to fight Rhaegar one on one over his sister... By all accounts I think he would have won...

I think Aery is more Brandon than Ned...