Grammar and vocabulary

[AnyaKimlin]

I thought she was blonde lol It was the movie that had it wrong which is why I didn't watch it.

 

[hopewrites]

huh, i was sure i had read somewhere that she had dark hair, but after flipping through the first chapter it doesn't say anything about how any of the children look.
that was clever.
now i just have to put these books up so i can type with out them falling on my fingers...

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

huh, i was sure i had read somewhere that she had dark hair, but after flipping through the first chapter it doesn't say anything about how any of the children look.
that was clever.
now i just have to put these books up so i can type with out them falling on my fingers...

You might be thinking more of Alice in Wonderland, HW; only in Disney's movies was she depicted as a blond. I don't think Lewis Carrol specifically stated that Alice was a brunette, but the girl he had written the story for was, if I am remembering my research correctly, and the Alice in the story was meant to be her.

 

[hopewrites]

except that i never read that one. it might have been because in the copies i have their hair is all inked in (they are black and white pen and ink prints).
i never noticed that CSL never described the children before, he just starts in telling the story. I've always liked his narrative style because it felt like listening to my grandparents talking next to the fire place when i was little, i would "play" at their feet but really i was just listening to them talk about their lives.

 

[Ashcroft]

It's okay, Hex. I am weird and arrogant.

And your avatar is terrifying.

They are in good dictionaries, and I don't just mean the OED. I believe every writer should have a good dictionary sitting on or near his or her desk.

Care to suggest one, Teresa? I'd have no idea which dictionaries are more reputable than the others.

I agree, but connotations (which, as someone said, aren't often found in dictionaries) can vary widely from person to person, because of the contexts in which they've come across those words before.

I agree, this is why I think it's important to try to avoid esoteric language; if the reader is likely to think they know what the word you've used means then they'll inevitably misunderstand your sentences (let's face it: not many readers -- bar, perhaps, other writers -- are going to leave a good piece of fiction to get a dictionary, and that's a testament to the engrossing nature of good fiction).

Ultimately, I don't think it matters a giant amount if people are painting a slightly different visual image than you intended -- as long as that visual image is still enjoyable. Unless a word has two vastly different, or contradictory, meanings/connotations, then the average reader should be able to understand what you were getting at with its use.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Chronicles members such as Teresa Edgerton and John Jarrold offer editing services, so if anyone lacks confidence with grammar I would personally recommend use an editor before submission to ensure full confidence in their MSS.

2c.

Thank you, Brian, for trying to throw some business my way; it's a kind thought.

But I don't do copyediting. I am a developmental editor, concentrating on the big issues like plot and characterization, and only point out the most obvious problems with grammar (and those that are repeated often enough that I know they aren't typos). However, I will point out that your grammar and spelling don't have to be perfect. You only have to be as good as the agent or editor to whom you submit your manuscript. They are rarely perfect. (That's why copy editors exist.)

Mine have always been sufficient for the purpose, though they don't reach the same dizzy heights of near perfection as the grammar and spelling of TJ or chris. You just have to be good at these things, not good enough to teach a course in copy editing.

You simply have to be as good as you would have been if the people who were supposed to teach you these things in school had been as diligent as they were supposed to be. But you don't have to take a course in remedial English and you don't have to memorize Strunk and White. All you have to do is pay close attention to these things as you read.

Presumably, if you are an aspiring writer, you are doing a lot of reading, and a lot (not all by any means) of that should be fiction.


Hex, the reason why you need a dictionary is because every time there is a niggling doubt in your mind that a word doesn't really mean what you think it does, you can look it up, and either reassure yourself that you are right, or avoid making a mistake. The other reason for having a dictionary is when you find yourself in a serious discussion, you can phrase your thoughts correctly, so that people don't misunderstand what you are trying to say because the words don't say what you want them to. (Or at least, if they do misunderstand, it's not your fault. You made a good faith effort to communicate.)

 

[Susan Boulton]

Care to suggest one, Teresa? I'd have no idea which dictionaries are more reputable than the others.

Not Teresa, (My knowledge of writing and the publishing industry is not so vast), but of the number of dictionaries I have there are two that I think are very good.

The Macmillan Engish Dictionary for advanced learners. I bought this one for my eldest daughter when she was 12, and it is very good, basic and clear. Now she has left home it has stayed

I also have a Collins Concise Dictionary, (1985 print) very old with a broken spine, but still the best one I have.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

You might be thinking more of Alice in Wonderland, HW; only in Disney's movies was she depicted as a blond. I don't think Lewis Carrol specifically stated that Alice was a brunette, but the girl he had written the story for was, if I am remembering my research correctly, and the Alice in the story was meant to be her.

I think it was John Tenniel that made Alice blonde with his illustrations of the book. Also Carroll sent pictures of other girls as his physical inspiration and I think the idea that Alice Liddell inspired anything more than the name is under dispute Carroll certainly denied it. She seems to have been a composite of different girls .

I did a lot of research on this for last years NaNo because I wanted Alice to one in my books.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Care to suggest one, Teresa? I'd have no idea which dictionaries are more reputable than the others.

Sorry. I was so caught up in answering somebody else's post I forgot to answer yours.

It can be confusing, because so many of them will say "Webster's" (or whatever) when they have no relationship with each other at all. I think one of the best ways is to look through the dictionary yourself and see how much information they put in the entries. My husband has an old dictionary that belonged to his parents. It's not a great dictionary, but it's the one on the desk with this computer (the one connected to the internet), so I'll use it when I'm in a hurry and it's not important to get the best answer.

The one I have, and it was the best I could afford (which wasn't much at the time) but I think is a very good one, though 15 years old, is the Oxford Dictionary and Thesaurus American Edition. The "thesaurus" part is a bit misleading. It's just a dictionary with a lot of synonyms tacked on at the end of the entries. It really is from the Oxford University Press, though I bet a lot of Dictionaries with "Oxford" in the title have nothing at all to do with the university. It is a ponderous tome, but the print isn't so small that I need a magnifying glass to read it (yet).

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I personally like Penguin dictionaries they are a good basic dictionary and quality tends to be reliable, and I use the Oxford English Dictionary free bit online. Collins does good dictionaries as well.

Thesaurus I learned how to use a Roget's one, so I am wedded to that. I have a very old penguin edition that needs replacing.

My English usage and grammar books are Oxford University Press.

And I have a couple of punctuation guides.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I'm afraid I'm with you; Roget's thesauras, very beaten up, and I use the Oxford concise dictionary, although I find little concise about it.

 

[chrispenycate]

My family have always sworn by (and frequently at – it is the ultimate referee in games of Boggle, Scrabble, Upwords, essential to avoid fratricidal incidents, and is why I know that a "zax" is a narrow tiler's hammer with a spike on the back for piercing the tiles an a claw on the side, so the strain of removing a nail is distributed over several tiles, a fact that I have never succeeded in incorporating into my writing despite watching French charpentiers using an identical tool on the château roof. But I digress) is Chambers, by battered "twentieth century", and my sister's still dust-cover protected "twenty first century". Mine is working as a mouse mat right now; it lifts the device up to a more comfortable height, and is conveniently at hand.

I'm generally obliged to take my glasses off to read it (about 12 diopters, a decent magnifying glass) but this is no real criticism of text size; I do this for comfort with most books nowadays.

As regards the inadequacies of the education system, I was educated as a scientist; and everyone knows that scientists do not need to be able to read nor write, except at a most basic level. Anyone who has ever corrected submissions for a technical journal, anyway. Admittedly I chose my parents carefully (essentially for the teeth, but the pedantry seems to have been included in the deal); my father taught English and drama, so I was immersed in the magic of words from birth. But most of the detail work was extracurricular, and not intended for practical use (I hadn't expected to write, or get mixed up with a collection of people who were so involved with it; I came here to discuss the SFF I read); always nice when a hobby turns out to have a practical use, isn't it?

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

I think it was John Tenniel that made Alice blonde with his illustrations of the book. Also Carroll sent pictures of other girls as his physical inspiration and I think the idea that Alice Liddell inspired anything more than the name is under dispute Carroll certainly denied it. She seems to have been a composite of different girls .

I did a lot of research on this for last years NaNo because I wanted Alice to one in my books.

Well actually, if I remember correctly, Tenniel's illustrations weren't in color, so her hair color could have been disputed. *shrugs* There was also some dispute on whether or not Carrol was...well, everyone knows that story.


And I think I will drop this matter here, as it is really OT.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

Well actually, if I remember correctly, Tenniel's illustrations weren't in color, so her hair color could have been disputed. .

They were black and white - her hair was light in the illustrations.

 

[JunkMonkey]

I know that a "zax" is a narrow tiler's hammer with a spike on the back for piercing the tiles an a claw on the side, so the strain of removing a nail is distributed over several tiles, a fact that I have never succeeded in incorporating into my writing despite watching French charpentiers using an identical tool on the château roof.

To get this thread even more OTT than the Alice thing:

My zax doesn't have a claw bit. It's more like a heavy cleaver with a cranked handle. (It must be a bugger to use left handed I wonder if they make them for southpaws.) It does have a spike on the back though. It's used for shaping slates and whacking holes in them for the nails. So maybe even a super-specialist (and Scrabble winning) word like zax has more than one meaning. Mine is is West Coast Scottish zax.

Zax and Ripper by the_junk_monkey, on Flickr​

To remove slates I use a slate ripper (that's the long thing).

 

[AnyaKimlin]

Oh I have one of those always wondered what it was for lol (it is part of an inherited tool kit that was started in the 1800s in either Berwick or Galashiels).

 

[Toby Frost]

Can I mention a special dislike of mine? Run-on sentences, like this:

"It is nearly half past five, we cannot reach town before dark."

It looks extremely amateurish!

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Oh no, that's another thing for me to check now; add to list, check for run ons. *sobs incoherently * I'm sure I have loads.

 

[chrispenycate]

Can I mention a special dislike of mine? Run-on sentences, like this:

"It is nearly half past five, we cannot reach town before dark."

It looks extremely amateurish!

That's a comma splice! Two complete sentences separated (or conjoined) by an inadequate piece of punctuation.

 

[Lilmizflashythang]

On the matter of dictionaries, I have the '78 and'73 Colliegate Webster's. One of them is so used I don't open it any more, I'm afraid the pages will fall out.

On the OP's posts, I think your writing lends itself to a snooty type of arrogance. Sort of like, I'm too good to use a dictionary, my audience should know instintively what I meant. Honestly, look up the word 'keep' in any unabridged dictionary. You'll find definitions to it, that you may not be aware of. But I digress, I was just saying that your personal writing voice reminds me of the people who could easily drown in a downpour. The problem with keeping your nose in the air.