Grammar and vocabulary

Here's something truly horrible: it would be a comma splice, except that instead of a comma, the author has used a semi-colon.

The shell swerved sickeningly; there was an oddly metallic splintering; it quivered; shot ahead.

(From The Moon Pool by A Merritt. He does this a lot. Please don't anyone else.)
 
I don't even understand that sentence. ^

Teresa commented that I used 'run ons' a lot in one of my short stories and I had to go look it up to see what it was. I kinda think I know. Kinda don't.

As for comma splice...
 
Well, this is what I think a run-on is, you just keep going, and going, and going, and others are wondering when you're going to stop, and you just keep going, and going, and going, and I'm driving myself crazy, so I think I'll stop, right, about, now. :D

See, I don't think that is a run-on. Cos my sentences are short. Really. ;)

HB, I think I'll give that one a miss then!
 
Having said that I think Sunset Song uses a lot of comma splicing. Its been twenty years since I read it but I do remember a lack of fullstops lol.
 
I want to say up-front that I don't believe in rules of any kind in language,

Whether you believe in them or not, they exist. Or, at least, a consensus exists which to all intents and purposes has the same standing as "rules". Now, I'm being deliberately trite in taking your comment literally, but it goes to show why rules - or at least an agreed approach which shifts with fashion - is important. Words are about communication. Send three and fourpence - we're going to advance.

I do think it's important to know the accepted rules but I don't think it's important to stick to them.

I'd argue that it's important to know the accepted rules but I don't think it's important to stick to them provided you know precisely which rule you are breaking, how you are breaking it and why you are breaking it. If you don't satisfy all three, I fear that the resulting text will just look amateurish.


I also don't believe in dictionary definitions of words. A word means what it is used to mean

I agree, although I think that this approach can lead to different groups using the same word in different ways - "sick" and "bad" both spring to mind.


So. I guess my question is this: does anyone actually count grammar or vocabulary against work as they read it?

Oh yes. I flatter myself that I can tell the difference between a writer who is playing with the form in order to achieve some sort of effect and a writer who simply cannot write a proper sentence. One can only do the former from a position of knowledge.

(I know some people do, I just wanted an idea for how widespread that feeling is). How badly am I limiting my readership by my weird vocabulary and, in places, deliberately incorrect grammar?

In your case, probably not much. I've never read your stuff, but from your posts you clearly know how to do it right. So, if you choose do it wrong AND you can pull it off, I'd say you could trust your readers to come along with you.

Regards

Peter
 
My thanks to everyone for all the great suggestions vis-a-vis dictionaries. I think it gives me rather a lot of dictionaries to sort through! :p

Here's something truly horrible: it would be a comma splice, except that instead of a comma, the author has used a semi-colon.

*shudder*

I literally don't understand what he was going for there; semi-colons can be used to relate two independent clauses that have related meaning, or to delineate complex lists, but they can't be used as a substitute for fullstops and commas! It'd be as bizarre as using no grammar other than fullstops!

That said -- as I've said before in this thread -- I'm fine with non-traditional (or even patently incorrect) grammar, so long as the use of grammar has painted a better scene than the correct grammar would have painted; however, in this case I'm not sure it has.

I don't even understand that sentence. ^

Teresa commented that I used 'run ons' a lot in one of my short stories and I had to go look it up to see what it was. I kinda think I know. Kinda don't.

As for comma splice...

A 'run-on sentence' is a sentence which involves two or more independent clauses that aren't joined by appropriate conjunctions or punctuation. I'll try my best to break those concepts down in an easy to understand fashion.

Independent Clause

An independent clause is basically a sentence that makes sense on its own. In its simplest form, an independent clause will contain at least one noun (a 'thing') followed by at least one verb (an 'action'). In lah-dee-dah posh grammar speak this is referred to as a 'subject' (the thing the sentence is about, and the thing that's 'doing' the verb) and a 'predicate' (the bit of the sentence that modifies the thing the sentence is about). A quick test of whether something's a dependent/subordinate or independent clause is to remove that part of your longer, potentially run-on, sentence and see if it makes sense on its own. For instance:

"The fire engine was red and was used to douse the blaze."

What parts of the above example might be a clause? Well, it can't be the 'and' because 'and' is a conjunction (a word used specifically to join two clauses or words). This means it's got to be the stuff around the 'and', so these are our two clauses:

"The fire engine was red"
"was used to douse the blaze."

So which of these two sentences is the independent clause? Are they both independent clauses? To find out, we apply our noun+verb (subject-predicate) rule:

"The fire engine was red": Has both a subject noun (fire engine) and a verb (was).
"was used to douse the blaze.": Has two verbs (was used, to douse) and one object noun (the blaze)

We can now see that the first sentence makes sense on its own. It's not very informative, but it does make sense; the subject of the sentence (the doer in the sentence which should be introduced prior to the verb, or it results in passive voice (ignore that, I'll explain that too if you want)) is being modified by the verb. Conversely, our second sentence doesn't have a subject at all; it has an object (the blaze) which is being affected (doused) by an unknown subject (? was used). We can see now that our second sentence doesn't make sense at all without reference to the first sentence, so our second sentence isn't an independent clause: it is a subordinate clause (a clause which helps to provide more information about the independent clause, but can't stand on its own).

Joining Independent Clauses

So how, and why, might we joined two independent clauses? We might want to join two independent clauses when we want to relate two separate, but interdependent, concepts to one another. For instance, consider the following sentence:

"It was a balmy summer's night, the clouds dreamily crawled across the sky."

This is a comma splice (a run-on sentence), so called because we've taken two independent clauses and just shoved them together with no appropriate conjunction. If we examine the sentence above, we can see there are two independent clauses with one on each side of the comma:

"It was a balmy summer's night" pronoun (It) + verb (was)
"the clouds dreamily crawled across the sky." noun (the clouds) + verb (crawled)

A comma can't be used to join two independent clauses, that's simply not its function. Commas can be used in a vast number of ways, but cramming together independent clauses isn't one of them. Many ways in which a comma can be used are described here (but it's by no means a full list).

So what can we do? We want to link the ideas in both independent clauses, but we don't want to seem like a lazy writer! We have a couple of ways of turning our run-on sentence into a bona fide sentence:

1) Use a semicolon

Semicolons are the brooding, misunderstood punctuation. They're used for a number of reasons, but chief amongst them are uses that link two thematically linked independent clauses and uses that link the items in a complex list (a list whose members contain commas). Solution:

"It was a balmy summer's night; the clouds dreamily crawled across the sky."

Here's where we've got to be careful not to overuse semicolons: semicolons can't directly follow one another as punctuation. For instance, if we were to add a third independent clause:

"It was a balmy summer's night, the clouds dreamily crawled across the sky, the fairground ride's lilting lullaby filled the crowd with excitement."

Then it wouldn't be acceptable to just add a third sequential semicolon:

"It was a balmy summer's night; the clouds dreamily crawled across the sky; the fairground ride's lilting lullaby filled the crowd with excitement."

Instead we'd have to find another piece of punctuation or a conjunction!

Really, the criteria of use for a semicolon should be a slightly more direct relationship between the two independent clauses, but I couldn't think of a particularly good example.

2) Use a conjunction preceded by a comma

A conjunction is a FANBOYS word:

For
And
Nor
But
Or
Yet
So

It is used to link two things together, and that includes independent clauses! When we link two independent clauses together with a conjunction, it is proper to precede the conjunction with a comma as so:

"It was a balmy summer's night, and the clouds dreamily crawled across the sky."

As with the semicolon, we shouldn't keep this string of conjoined independent clauses going with a comma and conjunction: eventually we're going to need some different punctuation like...

3) Make them separate sentences

It's also perfectly acceptable to just use a standard fullstop to turn them into two separate sentences. After all, they're both independent clauses and can stand on their own merits:

"It was a balmy summer's night. The clouds dreamily crawled across the sky."

Hope this helps you a bit. If you need some further explanation (or if someone wants to correct me!) then just yell.
 
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Well Ash it helped me. Where were you 15 years ago and why weren't you teaching my English classes?
 
Well Ash it helped me. Where were you 15 years ago and why weren't you teaching my English classes?

Ha! Fifteen years ago I was six, so I think I might have been a teensy bit young to have taught English Language.

I'm very glad I helped. If you've ever got any ponderings about grammar then be sure to make a topic and I'll answer as best I'm able.
 
Ha! Fifteen years ago I was six, so I think I might have been a teensy bit young to have taught English Language.

I'm very glad I helped. If you've ever got any ponderings about grammar then be sure to make a topic and I'll answer as best I'm able.

I think my freshman English class would have learned more from a 6 year old then we did from our teacher, but I understand if your parents didn't want you running off to a forgen country at that age.
 
When I was young, and where I went to school, they taught us grammar very, very thoroughly. In my case, I forgot all the rules. At least, I forgot all the names of things except the basic ones like noun, verb, subject, object, conjunction, run on sentence.

However, because I was a voracious reader, the forms stayed with me, and I knew when something was wrong even though I couldn't cite the rule that someone had broken.

It was only later, and from other writers, that I relearned terms like "comma splice."

Lilmizflashythang said:
Well, this is what I think a run-on is, you just keep going, and going, and going, and others are wondering when you're going to stop, and you just keep going, and going, and going, and I'm driving myself crazy, so I think I'll stop, right, about, now.

Mouse is very nearly right. Up until the last three words, it's perfectly correct, even if it's long and rambling.
 
When I was young, and where I went to school, they taught us grammar very, very thoroughly. In my case, I forgot all the rules. At least, I forgot all the names of things except the basic ones like noun, verb, subject, object, conjunction, run on sentence.

Isn't that a stroke of irony? Here we ill-educated buggers sit whining about our lack of proper grammar education when it's clear we've overlooked one extremely pertinent fact: it doesn't matter how much education one receives as a kid because kids aren't interested and don't pay attention! :D

I think my freshman English class would have learned more from a 6 year old then we did from our teacher, but I understand if your parents didn't want you running off to a forgen country at that age.

Ha! Well, when I was six I was supposedly dyslexic (read: my teachers couldn't/wouldn't teach), so that particular Ashcroft wouldn't have been able to teach anything anyway!

But I feel for you since my own grammar education has come not from education, but from reading a lot of grammar sites and books (some really great and easy to pick up sites are Grammar Girl and the OED site). Good luck on improving your grammar, but I warn you that it's a bloody irritating pursuit because one eventually becomes so embroiled in what's 'correct' grammar that one never finishes one's sentences!
 
Isn't that a stroke of irony? Here we ill-educated buggers sit whining about our lack of proper grammar education when it's clear we've overlooked one extremely pertinent fact: it doesn't matter how much education one receives as a kid because kids aren't interested and don't pay attention! :D

No, that wasn't what I was meant. I was saying that a good grounding is valuable if you continue to reinforce it with good examples, whether you remember the correct terms or not.

That's the important thing about learning these things in the first place; afterward, you intuitively know when something is wrong, even though you can't name it.

Naming it is most useful when you are trying to explain to someone what they did wrong, so they can correct it.

Comma splices have always annoyed me; they always feel wrong. Eventually, I noticed that many, many published writers use them, so I thought maybe I was wrong to dislike them so much. Once I learned that I was right in the first place, I resolved to stick to my guns and never use them again.

Karn said:
Well, the thing is, you put in comma breaks and that was the difference between a true run-on and a simply long sentence.

It wasn't just that. It was that she put the commas where they belonged, except near the end of the sentence.

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Indeed, TE, hence the term "comma breaks" rather than "comma splices".


Now, it would indeed have been a horrible run on had it no commas at all, and commas in the wrong area would have probably given my old high school Communications teacher apoplexy. He was a good old boy, actually...he was supposed to have retired the year before my sister got into his grade level, much less teach mine.
 
Hi Ashcroft and Hopewrites

I'm very glad I helped. If you've ever got any ponderings about grammar then be sure to make a topic and I'll answer as best I'm able.
You new bugs might want to check out the Toolbox thread in Writing Resources. It was started by one of our more esteemed and respected members and was designed as a collective repository for all manner of technical advice. Ashcroft - I reckon you should bolt your informative post in there (if you haven't done so already).

Regards,

Peter
 

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